Ticket office said fare not valid

[Jackboy29]

Hi, I often travel from Orpington upto London then back to Sevenoaks in the evening. When I first did this route I asked at the orpington ticket office and they sold me a Z1-6 travelcard and a single from Orpington to Sevenoaks as an extension. Recently, at the Sevenoaks station, I tried to buy a return from sevenoak to Orpington as an extension and a travelcard Z1-6. The ticket office at sevenoaks said this wasn't allowed and I had to buy a travelcard from Sevenoaks which is £1 more than the combination. I said I often buy an extension and never had a problem but was told that was different and she would sell me what I asked for but if I got caught I would be told to get of the train at Orpington and have to get the next train. I checked the national rail CoC and S19.ii states that the combination of tickets will be valid as long as the train stops at the station where the tickets change over i.e. Orpington in my case, which my train always does. I don't need the benefit of a travel card for the Orpington-Sevenoaks section of my journey as I go from home, travel around within the travelcard zones 1-6 then go home at the end of the day so don't feel I should pay more for something I won't use. My questions are:

1. Is a combination of Sevenoaks-Orpington return & Z6 travelcard to get to london from Sevenoaks a valid ticket if the train stops at Orpington.

2. When I initially bought a travelcard from orpington and single to Sevenoaks should I have been sold a travelcard and boundary zone 6-Sevenoaks extension or if I bought the travelcard at Orpington and then the BZ6 extension in London before travelling to Sevenoaks would that have been cheaper.

Thanks

 

[transportphoto]

I see nothing wrong with the combination, as long as you hold a valid ticket from the boundary station (as long as the train stops there) / zone to your destination.

In this case I would contact the relevant TOC (Southern (?)) and complain that you were refused the sale of a perfectly valid ticket(s)

Note: It could be argued that it is not the ticket office's job to do revenue protection. They should sell the tickets but advise that they believe that it is not valid for such journey. I also note that the tickets are valid.

 

[MikeWh]

Welcome to the forum.

1) Definitely valid and there is no requirement to alight from the train either. If this is suggested again then I would recommend complaining to SET.
2) I can't check the prices at the moment, but either option is valid. The BZ6 ticket makes both tickets zonal and thus there is no requirement to stop at the boundary. The cheapest option is likely to be a Chelsfield to Sevenoaks ticket, but then you'd be limited to the stopping trains between Orpington and Sevenoaks. The BZ6 ticket may be more expensive than the single from Orpington because it also has to cater for the route from St Mary Cray via Swanley.

 

[wintonian]

Note: It could be argued that it is not the ticket office's job to do revenue protection. They should sell the tickets but advise that they believe that it is not valid for such journey. I also note that the tickets are valid.

Looking at the OP I believe that is what happened in this case, in that the ticket office said it wasn't valid but they would sell t at the OP's own of getting caught.

 

[MikeWh]

Re-reading the original post, perhaps you should not use the word extension when asking for the Sevenoaks to Orpington return. The two tickets are seperate entities and are vaild on any train between Sevenoaks and London as long as it stops at Orpington.

 

[Jackboy29]

Hi, thanks for the replies. The ticket office at Sevenoaks did sell me what I wanted but basically said I would be guilty of fare evaison and if caught would be told to get off the train at Orpington and have to wait for the next one and if I got away with it then that was a matter for my conscience . I was pretty sure it was valid if the train stops at Orpington (I understand it would be different if it was non stop to London) and I've done the similar thing on advice from Orpington before so went ahead and checked on here and the CoC but I think it's unacceptable to be told that in front of other people in the queue and basically be made to feel like a criminal

 

[MikeWh]

... but I think it's unacceptable to be told that in front of other people in the queue and basically be made to feel like a criminal

I completely agree and if those were the circumstances I would certainly be writing to SET customer relations to complain. If you can give them as much detail as possible (one of the tickets would cover everything) then they may be able to schedule some additional training for the clerk involved.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I completely agree and if those were the circumstances I would certainly be writing to SET customer relations to complain. If you can give them as much detail as possible (one of the tickets would cover everything) then they may be able to schedule some additional training for the clerk involved.

So how else do you intend for clerks to be able to tell people that their tickets may or may not be valid and that they are doing it at their own risk?

 

[MikeWh]

So how else do you intend for clerks to be able to tell people that their tickets may or may not be valid and that they are doing it at their own risk?

It is fine if the tickets in question are not valid, but in the scenario being discussed in this thread the tickets are 100% valid. I take it you have read the other posts in this thread?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It is fine if the tickets in question are not valid, but in the scenario being discussed in this thread the tickets are 100% valid. I take it you have read the other posts in this thread?

Yes I have. And I agree, ticket clerks are not the revenue protection staff, but as you seem to take offence with passengers being told their tickets may or may not be valid (better to err on the side of caution of the clerk is not sure), how else should they do it?

 

[MikeWh]

I do not believe that it is unreasonable to expect a ticket seller in Sevenoaks to know that a combination of tickets for his own company's trains is valid. It really is only one stage up from selling a single ticket for the entire journey. If he has a doubt then he really ought to check. And to suggest that someone might need to alight from one train and catch another - that myth really needs to be stamped on at source.

 

[wintonian]

Yes I have. And I agree, ticket clerks are not the revenue protection staff, but as you seem to take offence with passengers being told their tickets may or may not be valid (better to err on the side of caution of the clerk is not sure), how else should they do it?

Looking up the routing guide or the manual as appropriate would possibly be a step in the right direction?

 

[Jackboy29]

So how else do you intend for clerks to be able to tell people that their tickets may or may not be valid and that they are doing it at their own risk?

Rather than the clerk find out and give an accurate answer I suspect they just sell the travelcard from Sevenoaks as this is the simplest and laziest way to do it. Unfortunately for the customer it also routinely and systematically over charges them. The reason this all came about (which I didn't go into detail in my original post for simplicity) is because I asked for the cheapest ticket to get into London and also travel within zones 1-4 once there. I was told travelcard from Sevenoaks for £13.50. However I know from my working week that Sevenoaks return to Orpington and Z6 travelcard is cheaper at £12.50. This makes sense as I don't need the travelcard benefits for the outer section. How do i know that my cheapest ticket for today wasnt a return to a zone4 station and then a Z4 travelcard. I suspect, being a Saturday, a lot of ppl hav gone into London today and are staying centrally, maybe zones 1-2, so they don't need a Sevenoaks travelcard but suspect that is what they've been sold. If your not using the travelcard benefits all the way out to Sevenoaks, only centrally, the price should be cheaper, as it is. But if everybody is being told a Sevenoaks travelcard is the cheapest option then many people are being systematically overcharged by at least £1 and maybe more

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I do not believe that it is unreasonable to expect a ticket seller in Sevenoaks to know that a combination of tickets for his own company's trains is valid. It really is only one stage up from selling a single ticket for the entire journey. If he has a doubt then he really ought to check. And to suggest that someone might need to alight from one train and catch another - that myth really needs to be stamped on at source.

I agree, the clerk was wrong in this situation. But wherever a passenger has to be advised that their choice of tickets may or may not be valid will make them feel like a criminal, so my original question still stands; how else do you intend clerks to tell passengers that their combination of tickets may or may not be valid? The passengers feelings are immaterial as far as I see it. If their tickets are not valid the clerk should advise them of that in no uncertain terms.

 

[MikeWh]

Rather than the clerk find out and give an accurate answer I suspect they just sell the travelcard from Sevenoaks as this is the simplest and laziest way to do it. Unfortunately for the customer it also routinely and systematically over charges them. The reason this all came about (which I didn't go into detail in my original post for simplicity) is because I asked for the cheapest ticket to get into London and also travel within zones 1-4 once there. I was told travelcard from Sevenoaks for £13.50. However I know from my working week that Sevenoaks return to Orpington and Z6 travelcard is cheaper at £12.50. This makes sense as I don't need the travelcard benefits for the outer section. How do i know that my cheapest ticket for today wasnt a return to a zone4 station and then a Z4 travelcard. I suspect, being a Saturday, a lot of ppl hav gone into London today and are staying centrally, maybe zones 1-2, so they don't need a Sevenoaks travelcard but suspect that is what they've been sold. If your not using the travelcard benefits all the way out to Sevenoaks, only centrally, the price should be cheaper, as it is. But if everybody is being told a Sevenoaks travelcard is the cheapest option then many people are being systematically overcharged by at least £1 and maybe more

Two points here.
1) Ticket sellers are not obliged to sell you the cheapest ticket combination unless you specifically ask for the actual tickets.
2) As I hinted earlier, the problem with Sevenoaks is that there are two ways to the travelcard boundary. The direct way is two stops to Knockholt while the other way is six stops to St Mary Cray. The price of a Sevenoaks to zones 1-6 travelcard has to reflect the longer route as well as the more direct one.

If you really only want the travelcard benefits in the central area then you could investigate the price of a return to Lewisham and a zone 1-2 travelcard from there. You'd have to use stopping trains to get to Lewisham of course.

 

[RJ]

Ticket office clerks are human and as such, are prone to error. Sometimes they get it wrong. Nobody knows it all, not even those on here who think they do.

The facts are, you can buy a ticket from outside of London to Boundary Zone 6 (and return if req.). If Boundary Zone 6 is not available as a destination then a station in Zone 6 is a valid substitute. If you hold a Zone 1-6 Travelcard as well then there is no need for the train to stop at any changeover point.

For clarity, the train does not have to call at any changeover point if you're buying an extension for a season ticket or a Travelcard. In situations like this I almost always sell a 1 - 6 plus extension as it's usually cheaper than 1 - 2 plus extension.

 

[MikeWh]

I agree, the clerk was wrong in this situation. But wherever a passenger has to be advised that their choice of tickets may or may not be valid will make them feel like a criminal, so my original question still stands; how else do you intend clerks to tell passengers that their combination of tickets may or may not be valid? The passengers feelings are immaterial as far as I see it. If their tickets are not valid the clerk should advise them of that in no uncertain terms.

I think we are actually in agreement here. My post that started this whole discussion (between us) was actually to do with just this situation:

I completely agree and if those were the circumstances I would certainly be writing to SET customer relations to complain. If you can give them as much detail as possible (one of the tickets would cover everything) then they may be able to schedule some additional training for the clerk involved.

If the tickets being asked for were unlikely to be valid then it would be right to point this out; if they definitely wouldn't be valid then the tone can become firmer.

As it happens I think that what the OP actually asked for may have clouded the situation, but I didn't know that at the time I made my post.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ticket office clerks are human and as such, are prone to error. Sometimes they get it wrong. Nobody knows it all, not even those on here who think they do.

Not disputing this, but tickets for your immediate local area on services provided by your employer should not form part of holes in your knowledge.

The facts are, you can buy a ticket from outside of London to Boundary Zone 6 (and return if req.). If Boundary Zone 6 is not available as a destination then a station in Zone 6 is a valid substitute. If you hold a Zone 1-6 Travelcard as well then there is no need for the train to stop at any changeover point.

For clarity, the train does not have to call at any changeover point if you're buying an extension for a season ticket or a Travelcard. In situations like this I almost always sell a 1 - 6 plus extension as it's usually cheaper than 1 - 2 plus extension.

For further clarity, if one ticket is a day travelcard and the other is a point-to-point ticket then the train DOES have to call at the changeover.

 

[RJ]

I agree, the clerk was wrong in this situation. But wherever a passenger has to be advised that their choice of tickets may or may not be valid will make them feel like a criminal, so my original question still stands; how else do you intend clerks to tell passengers that their combination of tickets may or may not be valid? The passengers feelings are immaterial as far as I see it. If their tickets are not valid the clerk should advise them of that in no uncertain terms.

You're wasting your efforts. Anybody selling tickets should know The Manual and CoC inside out, never ask any questions and not offer any advice. Should they make a mistake then a formal complaint should be made to their employers and extensive retraining should be provided until they know every fare, restriction and permutation of routes off the top of their head.

 

[b0b]

You're wasting your efforts. Anybody selling tickets should know The Manual and CoC inside out, never ask any questions and not offer any advice. Should they make a mistake then a formal complaint should be made to their employers and extensive retraining should be provided until they know every fare, restriction and permutation of routes off the top of their head.

well that is unreasonable, selling combinations of point to point tickets and travelcards shouldn't be that uncommon to stations in the "network" area. but maybe the tickets aren't as common as I might think?

 

[yorkie]

Clerks cannot know everything but should at least look it up if they do not!

ralphchadkirk's defence of the ticket clerk is not something I can understand, and I feel that his posts on this topic are not helpful.

I would suggest writing to SET if the tickets were refused to be sold, but as they were, then maybe they could be "let off this time"

As for "benefits" of a Travelcard from Sevenoaks compared to a combination, there is no benefit (except as detailed below).

As for whether it is cheaper, it depends on which direction you are doing it.

Note that when combining these tickets, if neither ticket is a season, and the ticket is to/from Orpington specifically (rather than Boundary Zone 6) then the train must call at Orpington.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

ralphchadkirk's defence of the ticket clerk is not something I can understand, and I feel that his posts on this topic are not helpful.

And we get to the same thing again...
If you had read my posts rather than just jumping at them like an overexcited puppy then you will see I agreed the clerk was in the wrong. If thats a defence then the entire UK legal system is flawed.

 

[Jackboy29]

Hi, thanks for all the replies. I'm not planning on making a complaint and totally understand everybody makes errors. My reason for posting on here was to check that my understanding on the CoC were correct. At the same time both Sevenoaks and Orpington are large stations on the route to London and I would expect somebody who works in the ticket office to have a knowledge of pricing between the two. I don't work for the railway but I was pretty sure the ticket combination was valid and the idea of having to get off a train and wait for the next one is simply ridiculous. I can see that the clerk obviously got confused between it being invalid if the train goes straight through to London and valid if it stops at Orpington so extended it to include that I must get off at Orpington. However, I do think it's reasonable to want a ticket clerk to have knowledge of ticket combinations between Sevenoaks, Orpington and London and an understanding of NRCoC

 

[Caped Crusader]

The facts are, you can buy a ticket from outside of London to Boundary Zone 6 (and return if req.). If Boundary Zone 6 is not available as a destination then a station in Zone 6 is a valid substitute. If you hold a Zone 1-6 Travelcard as well then there is no need for the train to stop at any changeover point.

There is a reason why tickets boundary zone 6 are a bit of a problem.

If I was to buy a ticket from Redhill to Boundary Zone 6 any permitted, which route can I take? Can I go via Tonbridge or Guildford?
Can you actually sell tickets to an "area" rather than to a point or station/station group?

Just thinking out loud and I can't find a definate answer!

 

[yorkie]

There is a reason why tickets boundary zone 6 are a bit of a problem.

If I was to buy a ticket from Redhill to Boundary Zone 6 any permitted, which route can I take? Can I go via Tonbridge or Guildford?
Can you actually sell tickets to an "area" rather than to a point or station/station group?

Just thinking out loud and I can't find a definate answer!

I remember ages ago being told that fares were available from Boundary Zone 6, but not to Boundary Zone 6. However when I stated this in a topic a few months ago, I was corrected and told they are available, and I checked in Avantix and for many journeys fares do indeed exist to Boundary Zone 6. If the fares exist, then surely they can be sold? They can only be purchased with a Travelcard (either at the same time as one, or to someone who already holds one). Someone who asks for such a ticket without having a Travelcard should not be sold such a ticket, as it is an extension of a Travelcard.

 

[Greenback]

I think that it right. I remember issuing tickets to Boundary zone 6 from Reading, but they had to be routed via either Slough or Bracknell, and could only be sold to someone with a valid 1-6 Travelcard. Other passnegers had to be issued with a ticket to the appropriate boundary station.

 

[londonbridge]

So how much is a return between Sevenoaks and BZ6 (if such ticket exists)? I ask because I've got a similar situation. I'm going to a gig in Sevenoaks on Thursday. A return from East Croydon-Sevenoaks via London Bridge is £10.90+£2.60 PAYG for bus into/from Croydon = £13.50. Can I save myself a few bob with a one-day travelcard and a return extension? On the journey home I'll be departing Sevenoaks on either the 22.59 or the 23.25. I've already worked out I can't combine the travelcard with a return between Knockholt and Sevenoaks since neither of these trains stops at Knockholt. Any other options?

 

[jon0844]

I think that it right. I remember issuing tickets to Boundary zone 6 from Reading, but they had to be routed via either Slough or Bracknell, and could only be sold to someone with a valid 1-6 Travelcard. Other passnegers had to be issued with a ticket to the appropriate boundary station.

So what do I ask for next time I am at Gatwick? It's hard to try and force someone to sell you a ticket they believe doesn't exist, and if you keep on at them then they'll probably get angry and insist they know their job - and have you down as a serious troublemaker.

I get this at Hatfield when I'm always told I can't get a ticket from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow (via Heathrow Connect). Both times I've managed, eventually, but felt the staff really hated me and thought I was an arse. Actually, the first time I didn't get it from the ticket window but an RPI who took the time to look.

 

[Caped Crusader]

So what do I ask for next time I am at Gatwick? It's hard to try and force someone to sell you a ticket they believe doesn't exist, and if you keep on at them then they'll probably get angry and insist they know their job - and have you down as a serious troublemaker.

From my info you would be also paying too much according to my sources:

Anytime Singles
Gatwick to Boundary Zone 6 - £7.30.
Gatwick To East Croydon (Zone 5 which every London-bound train goes through and all non express should top at) - £5.30

 

[Greenback]

Jon, I don't know, things may have changed in ten years! I recall having to look in the old printed fares manual for the fares, and I donlt think it was in the main section, but in a seperate part of the book.

Of course, things have moved on and we now have electronic versions of everything, which in theory should be simpler and quicker to use. However, we still seem to have members of staff who either don't want to check the material that there is there to assist them, or don't know how to do it. I have experienced this myself, when a clerk in Swansea was adamant he could not issue a Valleys Day Ranger outside of the validity area despit emy insistence that he could, and he refused to either try or to look it up. That incident led to an email to ATW requesting that all staff be made aware of their ability to issue ranger and rover tickets, and I've had no problem since.

I'm not really bothered about being branded a trouble maker if I;m in the right. I keep getting bus drivers whow ant to charge me too much, so I politely and quietly tell them again how much I have been paying and exactly where I want to get off. It happens about once a fortnight!

 

[MikeWh]

So how much is a return between Sevenoaks and BZ6 (if such ticket exists)? I ask because I've got a similar situation. I'm going to a gig in Sevenoaks on Thursday. A return from East Croydon-Sevenoaks via London Bridge is £10.90+£2.60 PAYG for bus into/from Croydon = £13.50. Can I save myself a few bob with a one-day travelcard and a return extension? On the journey home I'll be departing Sevenoaks on either the 22.59 or the 23.25. I've already worked out I can't combine the travelcard with a return between Knockholt and Sevenoaks since neither of these trains stops at Knockholt. Any other options?

I can't check the BZ6 prices, but they may well be more expensive because of the extra distance on the other route via Swanley. However, an off-peak return from Orpington to Sevenoaks is coming up as £4.50 which will work with an £8 travelcard and save you a quid. Not sure when you're going down or whether evening peak trains still sometimes run fast to Chelsfiled but that will also work as Chelsfield is in Z6 so you just start the point to point ticket late. The ony thing you can't get is a first stop Sevenoaks.