Better connections to other cities from Birmingham?

[MattRat]

So, outside of the WCML, the only access Birmingham has to other cities, is via Cross Country. I hope I don't have to explain why it just doesn't work at the moment.

Added to this, Cross Country either share tracks with other operators on premier London based services, which have right of way, or are on tracks that are below standard IMO for an intercity service, both of which inevitably slow journey times.

So, with that in mind, I wanted to ask the forum how they would improve Birmingham's connections to other cities, as personally I don't know what the best solution would be, I can only see the problem.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, outside of the WCML, the only access Birmingham has to other cities, is via Cross Country.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Cross Country trains were always intended to radiate out from Birmingham, and use New Street as their focal point. And in any event, doesn't Birmingham also connect to London via the Chiltern line (Chiltern Trains)? That's neither the WCML nor operated by Cross Country beyond Banbury.

 

[Birmingham]

London Northwestern Railway taking over the services to Manchester has been mooted before, which may be more appropriate using their regional-style EMUs (the 350s) than the intercity Voyagers. That doesn't feel too out of place considering LNR already operates to Crewe and Liverpool.

 

[30907]

Added to this, Cross Country either share tracks with other operators on premier London based services, which have right of way, or are on tracks that are below standard IMO for an intercity service, both of which inevitably slow journey times.

Not sure that's how timetabling works.

So, with that in mind, I wanted to ask the forum how they would improve Birmingham's connections to other cities, as personally I don't know what the best solution would be, I can only see the problem.

The most obvious step (pending HS2#2) is to restore the pre-Covid frequencies with trains of adequate capacity, and with the best possible paths (eg the via Doncaster service which was improving).

Beyond that, but bearing in mind the capacity of New Street, I would go for a half-hourly Peterborough, allowing the Stansteds to skip Melton/Oakham/Stamford.
Birmingham-N Wales via Shrewsbury isn't ideal, but I can't think of a realistic solution for the same capacity reason.

 

[MattRat]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Cross Country trains were always intended to radiate out from Birmingham, and use New Street as their focal point. And in any event, doesn't Birmingham also connect to London via the Chiltern line (Chiltern Trains)? That's neither the WCML nor operated by Cross Country beyond Banbury.

Cross Country is terrible, and even if improved, would still be a second rate service compared to what London get, simply because of the tracks they run on.

Also, other cities doesn't just mean London. Of course Birmingham has good connections to London. Every major city has good connections to London. But try getting to somewhere other than London, and problems arise. This is especially egregious for Birmingham, considering how large it is and how easy it would be for a politician to visit it and see the problem.

 

[The Planner]

Cross Country is terrible, and even if improved, would still be a second rate service compared to what London get, simply because of the tracks they run on.

Also, other cities doesn't just mean London. Of course Birmingham has good connections to London. Every major city has good connections to London. But try getting to somewhere other than London, and problems arise. This is especially egregious for Birmingham, considering how large it is and how easy it would be for a politician to visit it and see the problem.

Which cities are the issue, its only post COVID where any issues have arisen and in a lot of cases that is frequency not capacity? I would hardly call the radiating infrastructure from Brum poor.

 

[MattRat]

Which cities are the issue, its only post COVID where any issues have arisen and in a lot of cases that is frequency not capacity? I would hardly call the radiating infrastructure from Brum poor.

Well, the big 3 would be Cardiff, Sheffield, and Leeds, but nearly anywhere Cross Country runs to is a bad service. Have you not seen all the other threads talking about how bad it is? Oh, and one more thing: More trains and less coaches means less coaches, because if people need to be somewhere, they aren't catching the next train, unless it's something small like 2 minutes.

 

[JonathanH]

But try getting to somewhere other than London, and problems arise.

What problems arise? What problems arise when travelling from Birmingham to Liverpool or Manchester or Sheffield that don't happen when travelling from Birmingham to London?

 

[gc4946]

What problems arise? What problems arise when travelling from Birmingham to Liverpool or Manchester or Sheffield that don't happen when travelling from Birmingham to London?

The last XC direct trains to Sheffield and Leeds from Birmingham leave at 2103, to Manchester at 2157. That's too early, should be at least an hour later for cities of that size.
Conversely the last direct trains to Birmingham from Leeds is 2111 and Manchester is 2207 (2127 on Saturdays) that too are unacceptable.
I would like last trains between major cities to leave around 2300 even though they'll arrive in many cases after the last buses finish for the day because people will arrange for taxis to take them home

 

[JonathanH]

The last XC direct trains to Sheffield and Leeds from Birmingham leave at 2103, to Manchester at 2157. That's too early, should be at least an hour later for cities of that size.

The last connection from Birmingham to Sheffield is two hours later thanks to later EMR trains from Derby. Likewise Manchester can be reached with a similarly timed departure changing at Crewe. I wonder what demand is for that connection. (I have caught the 0044 Crewe to Manchester service and realistically I don't see huge demand for late long-distance services out of Birmingham.)

What do you think would drive the demand you perceive for later long-distance services out of Birmingham or is it just the size of the cities that implies a service should run?

 

[Bertie the bus]

The last XC direct trains to Sheffield and Leeds from Birmingham leave at 2103, to Manchester at 2157. That's too early, should be at least an hour later for cities of that size.
Conversely the last direct trains to Birmingham from Leeds is 2111 and Manchester is 2207 (2127 on Saturdays) that too are unacceptable.
I would like last trains between major cities to leave around 2300 even though they'll arrive in many cases after the last buses finish for the day because people will arrange for taxis to take them home

Why is a 21:57 departure to Manchester too early? Who wants to travel from Birmingham - Manchester after that? Birmingham might be the cultural centre of the West Midlands but it isn't the cultural centre of the country and peole in Manchester aren't going to nip down to Birmingham to go to the theatre or other such venue that would warrant a 23:00 or later return service.

 

[Philip]

The last connection from Birmingham to Sheffield is two hours later thanks to later EMR trains from Derby. Likewise Manchester can be reached with a similarly timed departure changing at Crewe. I wonder what demand is for that connection. (I have caught the 0044 Crewe to Manchester service and realistically I don't see huge demand for late long-distance services out of Birmingham.)

What do you think would drive the demand you perceive for later long-distance services out of Birmingham or is it just the size of the cities that implies a service should run?

People from either Manchester or Birmingham may fancy a night out in the other city and so this is where a train each way around midnight or a bit later would be useful. TPE used to (may still) run overnight trains between York, Blackpool and Manchester, so there must have been some demand for these. Birmingham to Manchester overnight travel may potentially have a similar level of demand.

 

[NoRoute]

All things are relative and compared to many other cities and towns I've always found Birmingham as having excellent rail connectivity, vastly better than many of the towns and cities surrounding it because it is the centre-point for various lines radiating out into the rest of the country, so you can pretty much get to anywhere you want from Birmingham.

Obviously the next improvement in connectivity will be HS2, but given the cost of this I doubt it will leave much money for any radical improvements in other regional routes.

 

[cactustwirly]

What problems arise? What problems arise when travelling from Birmingham to Liverpool or Manchester or Sheffield that don't happen when travelling from Birmingham to London?

Not being able to get a seat for much of the day, slow and infrequent service.

London has 3x 11 coach trains each our which run at 125mph

 

[JonathanH]

People from either Manchester or Birmingham may fancy a night out in the other city and so this is where a train each way around midnight or a bit later would be useful.

The word 'may' is operative there. What is the benefit to the railway of offering this service, almost certainly at a loss?

It doesn't need to go chasing every last penny of revenue currently spent on hotels, coach travel or travel currently made on the railway at a different time of the day.

TPE used to (may still) run overnight trains between York, Blackpool and Manchester, so there must have been some demand for these.

It only did so to serve the airport. Birmingham has its own airport.

Birmingham to Manchester overnight travel may potentially have a similar level of demand.

There might be some overnight demand but it is small and largely catered for adequately by both cities being stops on coach routes that pass through overnight.

I imagine the OP's original concern was daytime connections rather than a debate about nocturnal travel between the two places.

 

[gc4946]

All things are relative and compared to many other cities and towns I've always found Birmingham as having excellent rail connectivity, vastly better than many of the towns and cities surrounding it because it is the centre-point for various lines radiating out into the rest of the country, so you can pretty much get to anywhere you want from Birmingham.

Obviously the next improvement in connectivity will be HS2, but given the cost of this I doubt it will leave much money for any radical improvements in other regional routes.

First trains leave Birmingham stations after 0500 at least Mondays-Saturdays.
There's many towns and cities which have direct services arriving in Birmingham before 0900 on those days too.
The first train I can travel direct from Leeds is the 0611, arriving 0808.
If I wanted an earlier arrival on a weekday, I could catch the 0319 to Manchester Piccadilly and change there arriving New Street at 0655.

 

[Philip]

The word 'may' is operative there. What is the benefit to the railway of offering this service, almost certainly at a loss?

It doesn't need to go chasing every last penny of revenue currently spent on hotels, coach travel or travel currently made on the railway at a different time of the day.


It only did so to serve the airport. Birmingham has its own airport.


There might be some overnight demand but it is small and largely catered for adequately by both cities being stops on coach routes that pass through overnight.

I imagine the OP's original concern was daytime connections rather than a debate about nocturnal travel between the two places.

Coach services can't really compete with the railway for journey times and advance tickets can make the railway competitive cost-wise.

In terms of travelling between Manchester and Birmingham during the day, an inconsistency to me is that it is deemed very important to have an express quarter-hourly frequency between Manchester and Leeds, yet it is only half-hourly or hourly for Manchester to Birmingham, even though links between Manchester and Birmingham are arguably just as strong as they are between Manchester and Leeds. At the very least the half-hourly M'cr-B'ham frequency should be reinstated as soon as possible and with 10-coach formations for every train.

 

[A0]

London Northwestern Railway taking over the services to Manchester has been mooted before, which may be more appropriate using their regional-style EMUs (the 350s) than the intercity Voyagers. That doesn't feel too out of place considering LNR already operates to Crewe and Liverpool.

But would kill the NW - South Coast services because there aren't the spare paths between Manchester & Birmingham - far better to longer term replace the Voyagers with some form of bi mode.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Worcester, Hereford, Wrexham and Bangor are all non-WCML cities with non-XC services from Birmingham.

 

[JonathanH]

In terms of travelling between Manchester and Birmingham during the day, an inconsistency to me is that it is deemed very important to have an express quarter-hourly frequency between Manchester and Leeds, yet it is only half hourly or hourly for Manchester to Birmingham, even though links between Manchester and Birmingham are arguably just as strong as they are between Manchester and Leeds.

Leeds and Manchester are about 40 miles apart. Birmingham to Manchester is nearly 100 miles. It seems reasonable that there are half the number of express trains between Birmingham and Manchester as between Manchester and Leeds. An extra hourly connection is available changing at Crewe.

 

[A0]

Cross Country is terrible, and even if improved, would still be a second rate service compared to what London get, simply because of the tracks they run on.

Ah, so now we get to the nuts and bolts of it - London & the SE gets something so the rest of the country should.

Ignoring the fact London & SE have higher fares than the rest of the country, have much higher population density than the rest of the country and the fact for about a 70 mile radius of London there isn't another large city or metropolitan area so inevitably there is more travel into London than anywhere else - compare that with Leeds / Sheffield / Manchester all of which are about 30 miles apart yet therr isn't anytging like the commuter levels, let alone leisure travel demands to travel between those places as there is to travel between Luton and London.

 

[The Planner]

Well, the big 3 would be Cardiff, Sheffield, and Leeds, but nearly anywhere Cross Country runs to is a bad service. Have you not seen all the other threads talking about how bad it is? Oh, and one more thing: More trains and less coaches means less coaches, because if people need to be somewhere, they aren't catching the next train, unless it's something small like 2 minutes.

How many trains should Cardiff, Sheffield and Leeds get to/from Birmingham then? On your last point, are you suggesting that XC becomes a high frequency metro? People needing to be somewhere can, and do, read timetables. Are you suggesting for example that someone isn't going to go from Birmingham to London because the next train is 20 minutes later (and from Dec 22 the next fastest will be 30 minutes later)

 

[Philip]

Leeds and Manchester are about 40 miles apart. Birmingham to Manchester is nearly 100 miles. It seems reasonable that there are half the number of express trains between Birmingham and Manchester as between Manchester and Leeds. An extra hourly connection is available changing at Crewe.

Stronger business links though - I half suspect a big the reason for the overloaded TPE frequency is to provide direct trains from Yorkshire to a big international airport. Before the pandemic the Manchester-Birmingham trains were seriously overcrowded even at some typical off peak times, and that was with a half-hourly service.

 

[JonathanH]

Stronger business links though - I half suspect a big the reason for the overloaded TPE frequency is to provide direct trains from Yorkshire to a big international airport. Before the pandemic the Manchester-Birmingham trains were seriously overcrowded even at some typical off peak times, and that was with a half-hourly service.

How are 'stronger business links' measured? It will depend on the individual businesses, their market, staff numbers, competition, presence etc.

Manchester to Leeds is a relative 'short hop' compared with Manchester to Birmingham. Birmingham to Leeds is the weaker side of the triangle clearly.

Were Leeds to Manchester trains not also 'seriously overcrowded'? If 4tph Leeds to Manchester is an 'overloaded' frequency, wouldn't more than 2tph Manchester to Birmingham also be an 'overloaded' frequency?

 

[gc4946]

We have Northern Powerhouse Rail and Midlands Connect, could there be an initiative named "Golden Triangle", facilitating levelled-up connectivity between Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds?
All I can say I hope HS2 gets built to Manchester Piccadilly and beyond to Marsden, and at least the eastern leg as far as East Midlands Parkway. They might relieve some of the overcrowding and speed up services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just need to fix XC (see threads on that which already exist).

 

[MattRat]

We have Northern Powerhouse Rail and Midlands Connect, could there be an initiative named "Golden Triangle", facilitating levelled-up connectivity between Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds?
All I can say I hope HS2 gets built to Manchester Piccadilly and beyond to Marsden, and at least the eastern leg as far as East Midlands Parkway. They might relieve some of the overcrowding and speed up services.

Finally. These are the kind of answers I'm looking for. Yes, upgrading XC services could also help, but if I just wanted to look into that, there are already plenty of threads about it.

 

[Philip]

Were Leeds to Manchester trains not also 'seriously overcrowded'? If 4tph Leeds to Manchester is an 'overloaded' frequency, wouldn't more than 2tph Manchester to Birmingham also be an 'overloaded' frequency?

I understand that there are few if any new paths available between Manchester and Birmingham, but the trains should all be of Pendolino capacity and at the half-hourly frequency again. Half-hourly 4/5-car Voyagers isn't good enough.

 

[The Planner]

I understand that there are few if any new paths available between Manchester and Birmingham, but the trains should all be of Pendolino capacity and at the half-hourly frequency again. Half-hourly 4/5-car Voyagers isn't good enough.

I don't think anyone really disagrees with that and its just going over old ground. Its not going to be solved anytime soon. The closest we get to it is when Avanti agree to run Birmingam Manchester services in the XC paths when the WCML is shut so XC can strengthen south of Brum to cater for the displaced passengers.