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There seems to be a lot of strike action threatened or going ahead on the railways at the moment. Does anyone have an explanation of what it is all about.
A pandemic-induced economic slump during when the government has spent a ton of money furloughing people, and just prior to spending a ton of money assisting the population with their energy bills due to the worst cost of living crisis in decades, does not strike me as the best time to demand a pay rise which either the public or the government has to find money for.
Can’t speak for other TOC’s but at GA we haven’t had a pay rise in 3 years after they walked away from negotiations in 2020. In those 3 years inflation has rocketed, we’ve worked right through and been trained on a new fleet of trains.
Nothing was offered at the last meeting despite money now being available so ASLEF continued with the strike ballot.
Despite overwhelming support, none of us want to go on strike, we just want a reasonable agreement to be found.
Can’t speak for other TOC’s but at GA we haven’t had a pay rise in 3 years after they walked away from negotiations in 2020. In those 3 years inflation has rocketed, we’ve worked right through and been trained on a new fleet of trains.
Nothing was offered at the last meeting despite money now being available so ASLEF continued with the strike ballot.
Despite overwhelming support, none of us want to go on strike, we just want a reasonable agreement to be found.
The DfT want to have their cake and eat it. They want the ideology of privatisation with profits to private companies (ROSCOs and TOCs) but the don't want the staff to benefit from competition between TOCs or for their union representatives to be able to negotiate directly with employers
I agree , I don't just think it's just ideological issues either I also don't think much of the operational nounce of the protagonists at the DFT either .
For instance there doesn't seem to be a willingness to fix any of the issues like Sundays not in the week , lack of rest day working agreements after two years of heavily disrupted training or long term reduced timetables . There seems to almost be a head planted firmly in the sand approach from the department at the minute and in the meantime you've got TOC management capitalising on the lack of oversight causing all sorts of issues with their workforces left right and centre. I don't think many staff in the industry are unaware of the difficult situation it faces but at the same time this anything goes environment and constant sneering remarks about how lucky we were to not be furloughed makes even the most moderate members of staff become belligerent , industrial relations are as poor as I've ever known them and there's zero appetite among staff to bail out the industry with their terms and conditions .
Unfortunately this only drives the frustration; "Sorry, nothing to offer.....still nothing to offer.....nope, still can't offer anything.....oh look, we've managed to find 2.2%". It just suggests dishonesty.
You can fully appreciate why the unions believe, rightly or otherwise, that striking will eventually produce the figure that they want. Why not come straight out with the first offer, explain that is all you can provide and at least be halfway honest. Trying to start a negotiation at 0 merely drags things out for all concerned, passengers included.
You cannot criticise an employer starting at zero, if the unions start by asking for a figure they don’t expect
You can never build a reasonable agreement/settlement if take the lets choose a silly starting place approach (or just waste lots of time getting to where could have started from, before get going).
If both sides start from, government is giving civil servants 2.2%, and how can we mutually stretch it with some apparent productivity improvements, then might get somewhere.
Strikes are often mis-sold to members, if after say 50 days of strikes the offer is still 2.2% because that is limit set by HM Treasury, then would so many have voted to strike. I suspect many of those voting to strike didn’t realise they would ultimately be fighting the purse strings of HM Treasury.
Re your last para l can't see it happening at all. The department that l work in reduced office space severely. It now can't actually, outside certain specialist areas, accommodate more than 50% of staff with a desk in the office on any one day. It is far from unique either.
Bear that in mind when you next see ministers spouting on the subject.....
It's about there not being any pay rise for 3 years (at most TOCs) - after having received pay rises at least matching inflation, and in many cases exceeding that, for the previous 20-25 years.
Albeit you’ve omitted to mention that things have been sold to justify many of those pay rises - it hasn’t all been “free money” by any means. Some of the largest rises (eg GTR and SWR) were as a result of adoption of DOO, for example, which is a fundamental change in working practices.
Of course the industry has been expected to continue largely as normal throughout Covid, and we are certainly now getting back to (and often exceeding) pre Covid levels of overcrowding.
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You can never build a reasonable agreement/settlement if take the lets choose a silly starting place approach (or just waste lots of time getting to where could have started from, before get going).
It sounds like the number of civil servants is going to be substantially reduced, so perhaps that will go some way towards freeing up office space.
Albeit you’ve omitted to mention that things have been sold to justify many of those pay rises - it hasn’t all been “free money” by any means. Some of the largest rises (eg GTR and SWR) were as a result of adoption of DOO, for example, which is a fundamental change in working practices.
Of course the industry has been expected to continue largely as normal throughout Covid, and we are certainly now getting back to (and often exceeding) pre Covid levels of overcrowding.
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It’s telling that your own expectations are so low that you see not wanting a substantial real terms pay cut as “silly”.
The CS cuts will take numbers back to 2016 levels (despite us having acquired substantial new work since then) when there was substantially more office space.
In many other employment sectors there have been significant changes in technology, terms and conditions without significant extra payment. The railway will at some point have to be dragged, screaming and kicking if necessary, into the late 20th century let alone the current one. That happening could well be downright ugly. I am actually surprised that HMG didn't use the opportunity provided by the pandemic.
Re your last para welcome to what is, and has been for some time, happening to most of the country who, make no mistake, will not support rail unions, far from it.
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It's about there not being any pay rise for 3 years (at most TOCs) - after having received pay rises at least matching inflation, and in many cases exceeding that, for the previous 20-25 years.
So obviously there is a strong expectation amongst employees and union members that pre-Covid practices will resume; the fact that the government effectively unconditionally underwrote the industry has only served to strengthen this impression. There has certainly been some very poor expectation management on the part of the government and TOCs.
The environment of high inflation only serves to inflame these tensions, with the unions demanding inflationary rises whilst the government wants to treat the railway the same way as the Civil Service (which it is effectively now part of) - with 2% increases, rising to 3% if efficiencies can fund the difference.
Until and unless there is a meeting of the minds, which will inevitably involve a degree of compromise on all sides, the industrial unrest and resultant disruption will continue.
The reality is that a generation of rail workers have done very nicely paywise since privatisation and think that should continue indefinitely. Unfortunately the pay master thinks otherwise and is now prepared to bite the bullet. Many on here seem to think that big majorities in strike ballots will make a difference. Frankly, from the vibes l've had from insiders, HMT don't give a toss and won't be shifting.
Make no mistake the rail unions have precious little (read zero) public support. Doubtless in part fuelled by biased media most of the public would like nothing more than to see the rail unions "Scargilled" and would be all too supportive of legislation which assisted that.
I agree , I don't just think it's just ideological issues either I also don't think much of the operational nounce of the protagonists at the DFT either .
For instance there doesn't seem to be a willingness to fix any of the issues like Sundays not in the week , lack of rest day working agreements after two years of heavily disrupted training or long term reduced timetables . There seems to almost be a head planted firmly in the sand approach from the department at the minute and in the meantime you've got TOC management capitalising on the lack of oversight causing all sorts of issues with their workforces left right and centre. I don't think many staff in the industry are unaware of the difficult situation it faces but at the same time this anything goes environment and constant sneering remarks about how lucky we were to not be furloughed makes even the most moderate members of staff become belligerent , industrial relations are as poor as I've ever known them and there's zero appetite among staff to bail out the industry with their terms and conditions .
The CS cuts will take numbers back to 2016 levels (despite us having acquired substantial new work since then) when there was substantially more office space.
In many other employment sectors there have been significant changes in technology, terms and conditions without significant extra payment. The railway will at some point have to be dragged, screaming and kicking if necessary, into the late 20th century let alone the current one. That happening could well be downright ugly. I am actually surprised that HMG didn't use the opportunity provided by the pandemic.
Re your last para welcome to what is, and has been for some time, happening to most of the country who, make no mistake, will not support rail unions, far from it.
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The reality is that a generation of rail workers have done very nicely paywise since privatisation and think that should continue indefinitely. Unfortunately the pay master thinks otherwise and is now prepared to bite the bullet. Many on here seem to think that big majorities in strike ballots will make a difference. Frankly, from the vibes l've had from insiders, HMT don't give a toss and won't be shifting.
Make no mistake the rail unions have precious little (read zero) public support. Doubtless in part fuelled by biased media most of the public would like nothing more than to see the rail unions "Scargilled" and would be all too supportive of legislation which assisted that.
So let me get this right, other workers in this country have been downtrodden into accepting below inflation payrises and having their terms and conditions changed at will do won't support other workers fighting for a fair deal for themselves . Seems kinda spiteful .
Anyhow I don't think the unions or their members are under any illusion about the fact there will be little public support . But industrial disputes aren't really resolved by public support , let's not forget they can bring in as many minimum service levels as they want but much chaos is being caused by people not working their days off , stopping on for extra hours or being expected to work Sundays which you can't legislate people to do.
The "public support" argument is always brought out when strikes are talked about . I remember folk predicting the end of railways in the NW during the northern DOO dispute because of lack of public support and yet despite putting 50 strike days down the network is as busy as ever and not a single train has run DOO
So let me get this right, other workers in this country have been downtrodden into accepting below inflation payrises and having their terms and conditions changed at will do won't support other workers fighting for a fair deal for themselves . Seems kinda spiteful .
Anyhow I don't think the unions or their members are under any illusion about the fact there will be little public support . But industrial disputes aren't really resolved by public support , let's not forget they can bring in as many minimum service levels as they want but much chaos is being caused by people not working their days off , stopping on for extra hours or being expected to work Sundays which you can't legislate people to do.
The "public support" argument is always brought out when strikes are talked about . I remember folk predicting the end of railways in the NW during the northern DOO dispute because of lack of public support and yet despite putting 50 strike days down the network is as busy as ever and not a single train has run DOO
So let me get this right, other workers in this country have been downtrodden into accepting below inflation payrises and having their terms and conditions changed at will do won't support other workers fighting for a fair deal for themselves . Seems kinda spiteful .
Anyhow I don't think the unions or their members are under any illusion about the fact there will be little public support . But industrial disputes aren't really resolved by public support , let's not forget they can bring in as many minimum service levels as they want but much chaos is being caused by people not working their days off , stopping on for extra hours or being expected to work Sundays which you can't legislate people to do.
The "public support" argument is always brought out when strikes are talked about . I remember folk predicting the end of railways in the NW during the northern DOO dispute because of lack of public support and yet despite putting 50 strike days down the network is as busy as ever and not a single train has run DOO
If l was a railway worker l can't imagine that l would want things to change either. I wasn't being spiteful or nasty, merely setting out the current situation. Comparing a local dispute to something nationwide is naive at best. Don't, if things get ugly, discount fire and hire either.
TBF northern is quite a big TOC , and at the time several TOC's were in dispute over DOO it really wasn't far off a national dispute.
It'd be interesting to see how fire and rehire would pan out in the industry . In all honesty it would need huge spending on increasing traincrew numbers unless they rehired people onto longer working weeks which would probably see numerous people taking the redundancy option at which point the industry would have a huge problem.
So let me get this right, other workers in this country have been downtrodden into accepting below inflation payrises and having their terms and conditions changed at will do won't support other workers fighting for a fair deal for themselves . Seems kinda spiteful .
Anyhow I don't think the unions or their members are under any illusion about the fact there will be little public support . But industrial disputes aren't really resolved by public support , let's not forget they can bring in as many minimum service levels as they want but much chaos is being caused by people not working their days off , stopping on for extra hours or being expected to work Sundays which you can't legislate people to do.
The "public support" argument is always brought out when strikes are talked about . I remember folk predicting the end of railways in the NW during the northern DOO dispute because of lack of public support and yet despite putting 50 strike days down the network is as busy as ever and not a single train has run DOO
I am a Civil Servant (like Wolfie), last year we voted to accept revised terms & conditions which gave me a 13% payrise over 3 years BUT the changes to my T&C included
Changes to my flexi
When needed having to work until 8pm one night a week and 6 Saturdays a year - I have not been asked to do this yet
Loss of 1 1/2 days Privilege Holidays (extra holidays)
The option to work from home 2 days a week - needed because my Department has lost so much office space that not everyone could work in the office if they wanted to.
I voted to accept the offder because I knew it was possibly the last decent payrise I could get before my retirement - as I am top of my payscale I got 7% consolidated (pensionable) 6% unconsolidated (lump sums), with the economy the way it is in future I am expecting 1% per year, which is still a pay cut.
Its not an ideal situation but the way the economy is performing at the moment perhaps people should temper their expectations
So the CAF fleet have body side cameras and equipment. As demonstrated with the 172's the same equipment only takes 18 months for a full fleet to be converted. Not sure it is a million miles away.
So let me get this right, other workers in this country have been downtrodden into accepting below inflation payrises and having their terms and conditions changed at will do won't support other workers fighting for a fair deal for themselves . Seems kinda spiteful .
Anyhow I don't think the unions or their members are under any illusion about the fact there will be little public support . But industrial disputes aren't really resolved by public support , let's not forget they can bring in as many minimum service levels as they want but much chaos is being caused by people not working their days off , stopping on for extra hours or being expected to work Sundays which you can't legislate people to do.
The "public support" argument is always brought out when strikes are talked about . I remember folk predicting the end of railways in the NW during the northern DOO dispute because of lack of public support and yet despite putting 50 strike days down the network is as busy as ever and not a single train has run DOO
Public support is going to be key in any dispute where the funding ultimately comes from the taxpayer. And given all the extra demands on funds with covid hangovers, war, energy crisis and rampant inflation, it is very, very likely that a long running, bitter dispute over pay claims that although match inflation are way in excess of what other industries are seeing with be exploited by the government. Can you imagine the impact on public opinion with a headline along the lines of "Government cancels support for energy bills to cover 10% rail workers pay rise" (BTW I'm not saying this will happen, just using it as an example). It would be carnage in the media & would embolden the ruling prats further to hold out, and perhaps even start swinging the axe.
I'm afraid this is a reality of publicly funded life. Private industry can & does reward on a performance basis, public sectors are generally squeezed for all they are worth, especially when budgets are tight. And right now they are very tight.
I'm afraid this is a reality of publicly funded life. Private industry can & does reward on a performance basis, public sectors are generally squeezed for all they are worth, especially when budgets are tight. And right now they are very tight.
The reality of a publicly funded life is that an inflationary element for pay increases is on the table at all. Inflationary increases in the private sector stopped in 2008 in many cases and aren't going to return (other than as a result of the minimum wage increases).
Ultimately, the reality is a function of market forces, economic activity, benchmarking against other similar roles and affordability which will change over time.
Public support is going to be key in any dispute where the funding ultimately comes from the taxpayer. And given all the extra demands on funds with covid hangovers, war, energy crisis and rampant inflation, it is very, very likely that a long running, bitter dispute over pay claims that although match inflation are way in excess of what other industries are seeing with be exploited by the government.
For balance, I do agree there needs to be a sense of reasonableness. It should be remembered that the unions’ demands are only a starting point and there’s every chance a more modest offer would be accepted following a negotiation.
Eg the Scotrail offer was circa. 4% (I realise that’s a different dispute, the Scottish government etc. but it’s still indicative). That’s still a great deal lower than inflation and it sounds as though the sticking point there was strings attached rather than the amount.
For balance, I do agree there needs to be a sense of reasonableness. It should be remembered that the unions’ demands are only a starting point and there’s every chance a more modest offer would be accepted following a negotiation.
Eg the Scotrail offer was circa. 4% (I realise that’s a different dispute, the Scottish government etc. but it’s still indicative). That’s still a great deal lower than inflation and it sounds as though the sticking point there was strings attached rather than the amount.
And I sincerely hope that's the case. The last thing we need is to give this circus of a government more excuses to start cutting services & infrastructure. As you know there is going to be a substantial reduction in civil servants soon, but what is less widely reported is that a large number of sites are also going to go bye-bye, with much more emphasis on larger hubs & fewer desks. Right now to head into the office not only do I have to book a desk in advance, I'm effectively competing with a more than double the number of colleagues to desk ratio. This is all driven by cost, this government is not afraid of cuts. Its always worth unions entering into disputes with them keeping this in mind when drawing the line in the sand.
For balance, I do agree there needs to be a sense of reasonableness. It should be remembered that the unions’ demands are only a starting point and there’s every chance a more modest offer would be accepted following a negotiation.
Eg the Scotrail offer was circa. 4% (I realise that’s a different dispute, the Scottish government etc. but it’s still indicative). That’s still a great deal lower than inflation and it sounds as though the sticking point there was strings attached rather than the amount.
The ScotRail offer was 4.2% with an additional 5% per month based on revenue targets being hit. That was the only sticking point as Aslef want that, or some of it, included in the salary rather than as a bonus payment.
The ScotRail offer was 4.2% with an additional 5% per month based on revenue targets being hit. That was the only sticking point as Aslef want that, or some of it, included in the salary rather than as a bonus payment.
The reality of a publicly funded life is that an inflationary element for pay increases is on the table at all. Inflationary increases in the private sector stopped in 2008 in many cases and aren't going to return (other than as a result of the minimum wage increases).
Ultimately, the reality is a function of market forces, economic activity, benchmarking against other similar roles and affordability which will change over time.
Re your first para in your dreams! As a long-term CS l am 24% worse off in real terms than l was in 2010. I haven't had one inflation matching rise in that period.
Public support is going to be key in any dispute where the funding ultimately comes from the taxpayer. And given all the extra demands on funds with covid hangovers, war, energy crisis and rampant inflation, it is very, very likely that a long running, bitter dispute over pay claims that although match inflation are way in excess of what other industries are seeing with be exploited by the government. Can you imagine the impact on public opinion with a headline along the lines of "Government cancels support for energy bills to cover 10% rail workers pay rise" (BTW I'm not saying this will happen, just using it as an example). It would be carnage in the media & would embolden the ruling prats further to hold out, and perhaps even start swinging the axe.
I'm afraid this is a reality of publicly funded life. Private industry can & does reward on a performance basis, public sectors are generally squeezed for all they are worth, especially when budgets are tight. And right now they are very tight.
The funding for the railway has in many places come from the taxpayer for a number of years . I appreciate the risk of headlines of the sort but getting involved in nuanced arguments over how the railway is funded and organised could also backfire on government. Let's not forget strike action is only one type of industrial action . An overtime ban/work to rule at network rail and some Tocs among a lot of grades would cause significant issues and it's harder to portray People taking their entitled rest days as being greedy or militant.
Either way I think a lot of focus is being given to what the unions demands are rather than what would actually resolve the dispute . As much as I don't like the fact I think an offer in the region of 5% could have cut across these ballots . Union policy will always dictate above inflation pay claims .
And I sincerely hope that's the case. The last thing we need is to give this circus of a government more excuses to start cutting services & infrastructure. As you know there is going to be a substantial reduction in civil servants soon, but what is less widely reported is that a large number of sites are also going to go bye-bye, with much more emphasis on larger hubs & fewer desks. Right now to head into the office not only do I have to book a desk in advance, I'm effectively competing with a more than double the number of colleagues to desk ratio. This is all driven by cost, this government is not afraid of cuts. Its always worth unions entering into disputes with them keeping this in mind when drawing the line in the sand.
And I sincerely hope that's the case. The last thing we need is to give this circus of a government more excuses to start cutting services & infrastructure. As you know there is going to be a substantial reduction in civil servants soon, but what is less widely reported is that a large number of sites are also going to go bye-bye, with much more emphasis on larger hubs & fewer desks. Right now to head into the office not only do I have to book a desk in advance, I'm effectively competing with a more than double the number of colleagues to desk ratio. This is all driven by cost, this government is not afraid of cuts. Its always worth unions entering into disputes with them keeping this in mind when drawing the line in the sand.
Many moons ago now. I worked for a professional service firm where “hot desking” was a thing, and you were supposed to book a desk each day before work. Most of the time people didn’t bother booking and it worked fine but, during audit season, the office would fill up with auditors, you’d get to work only find someone you’d never met before sitting at “your” desk which they had duly booked.
Absolutely maddening when you were busy and unable to find anywhere to actually work... It led to more than one physical confrontation!
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Let's not forget strike action is only one type of industrial action . An overtime ban/work to rule at network rail and some Tocs among a lot of grades would cause significant issues and it's harder to portray People taking their entitled rest days as being greedy or militant.
I think one of the sticking points for those of us without any payrise for 3yrs - working through the pandemic - is that all we're asking for is a payrise to match inflation for *this* year.
To be told, possibly 4% or 5% (you're still losing money), oh, and we're coming for your T&C's as well... No thanks.
Realistically, 5% as a basic payrise, I'd go with that. But not T&C's.
If no stand is made, the precedent will be set. The only action frontline staff have is to withdraw their labour (at their cost). Most people I speak to do not want to strike, but how worse off will we be if we don't?
Re your first para in your dreams! As a long-term CS l am 24% worse off in real terms than l was in 2010. I haven't had one inflation matching rise in that period.
I didn't mean 'full' inflationary, just any increase awarded on an inflationary basis.
There has been no change to the pay bands in my line of work at all in that time to reflect inflation, and the message continues to be that benchmarking surveys with other employers in the same industry suggest that there isn't any movement elsewhere.
The funding for the railway has in many places come from the taxpayer for a number of years . I appreciate the risk of headlines of the sort but getting involved in nuanced arguments over how the railway is funded and organised could also backfire on government. Let's not forget strike action is only one type of industrial action . An overtime ban/work to rule at network rail and some Tocs among a lot of grades would cause significant issues and it's harder to portray People taking their entitled rest days as being greedy or militant.
Either way I think a lot of focus is being given to what the unions demands are rather than what would actually resolve the dispute . As much as I don't like the fact I think an offer in the region of 5% could have cut across these ballots . Union policy will always dictate above inflation pay claims .
Many moons ago now. I worked for a professional service firm where “hot desking” was a thing, and you were supposed to book a desk each day before work. Most of the time people didn’t bother booking and it worked fine but, during audit season, the office would fill up with auditors, you’d get to work only find someone you’d never met before sitting at “your” desk which they had duly booked.
Absolutely maddening when you were busy and unable to find anywhere to actually work... It led to more than one physical confrontation!
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The general consensus where I am is that this is by far the best approach.
Going off topic for a moment, it gets worse. At my office only about half the desks have docking stations for those of us with older laptops, meaning that the full size monitors, mouse, keyboard & even LAN connection are unavailable. This leads to extra demand for those desks that have all the docking stations / leads we need to be as productive as possible. This is how it is in 21st public sector land, its not great. I can only hope that all the disputes stacking up are resolved to better advantage for the workers, sadly I fear some will not.
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