Would GA retaining Guards prevent fare evasion?

[Class 170101]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/greater-anglia-vote-for-strike-action-aslef.232529

Presumably a pay increase linked to productivity would be more acceptable to HM Treasury. I suppose that would imply DOO.

A lot of Greater Anglia is already DOO or will be once the Class 720s are in. Colchester Town, Southminster and Ipswich will become full DOO routes. West Anglia services are already DOO throughout. Its mainly former Anglia services that are guarded now and frankly I can't believe that wouldn't continue mainly to prevent fare evasion.

 

[yorkie]

... frankly I can't believe that wouldn't continue mainly to prevent fare evasion.

This is a red herring; if Guards were replaced with travelling ticket inspectors (as done very successfully on many operators/routes, e.g. on Scotrail electric services in the Glasgow area) it would be even easier to 'prevent' fare evasion than with a Guard who has to do the doors at each station. If you disagree, that's fine; feel free to create a new thread to discuss it further. Let's get back onto the topic of the results of the ballot in this thread.

 

[dk1]

This is a red herring; if Guards were replaced with travelling ticket inspectors (as done very successfully on many operators/routes, e.g. on Scotrail electric services in the Glasgow area) it would be even easier to 'prevent' fare evasion than with a Guard who has to do the doors at each station. If you disagree, that's fine; feel free to create a new thread to discuss it further. Let's get back onto the topic of the results of the ballot in this thread.

Guards don’t do doors on GA services.

 

[yorkie]

Guards don’t do doors on GA services.

So they can carry on checking/issuing tickets as the train calls at stations?

 

[ainsworth74]

Guards don’t do doors on GA services.

Indeed. It actually works very well from what I saw on the day I spent down there a few months ago. All the guards were very proactive, friendly and without needing to deal with doors were able to focus on passengers and revenue.

So they can carry on checking/issuing tickets as the train calls at stations?

Yes, it foxed me the first time I saw it but it works basically the same as TEs on Glasgow electric services.

 

[dk1]

Indeed. It actually works very well from what I saw on the day I spent down there a few months ago. All the guards were very proactive, friendly and without needing to deal with doors were able to focus on passengers and revenue.

They do a great job & bring so much to the journey experience.

 

[yorkie]

I am a big fan of having the driver deal with the doors and having a member of staff who patrols the train (and does not stay in their cab) checking and issuing tickets, without having to be distracted at each station, whatever the role is called. I've not heard of this role being referred to as a Guard before as I've always considered a Guard to be someone who is involved in the despatch of the train, in some form at least, even if they don't actually close the doors but signal to the driver to do so.

 

[Class 170101]

Guards don’t do doors on GA services.

Except if the cameras go wrong and to maintain competency.

I am a big fan of having the driver deal with the doors and having a member of staff who patrols the train (and does not stay in their cab) checking and issuing tickets, without having to be distracted at each station, whatever the role is called. I've not heard of this role being referred to as a Guard before as I've always considered a Guard to be someone who is involved in the despatch of the train, in some form at least, even if they don't actually close the doors but signal to the driver to do so.

Thats because the grade is maintained if not the job as described, just look at the punch up on Southern changing from Guards to OBS.

 

[dk1]

Except if the cameras go wrong and to maintain competency.

Of course which does happen very occasionally. Only closing them though.

 

[O L Leigh]

I am a big fan of having the driver deal with the doors and having a member of staff who patrols the train (and does not stay in their cab) checking and issuing tickets, without having to be distracted at each station, whatever the role is called. I've not heard of this role being referred to as a Guard before as I've always considered a Guard to be someone who is involved in the despatch of the train, in some form at least, even if they don't actually close the doors but signal to the driver to do so.

Lets not get too carried away. The GA guards may not routinely be involved in despatch, but they still retain their safety critical duties which the Strathclyde area's TEs do not. Therefore they are still guards and the train is not strictly DOO.

 

[Towers]

DCO would seem to be what we're referring to here; "Driver Controlled Operation". The Guard has no routine part in operating the train, but retains their Rulebook competencies in the event of an emergency situation.

 

[the sniper]

DCO would seem to be what we're referring to here; "Driver Controlled Operation". The Guard has no routine part in operating the train, but retains their Rulebook competencies in the event of an emergency situation.

Not really, because 'DCO' as implemented on Southern and intended elsewhere by the DfT was just dressed up DOO, where the OBS is operationally/rule book wise little more than a passenger, who may or may not be present.

 

[Towers]

Not really, because 'DCO' as implemented on Southern and intended elsewhere by the DfT was just dressed up DOO, where the OBS is operationally/rule book wise little more than a passenger, who may or may not be present.

Waters have become increasingly muddied in recent years, but the 'proper' definition of DCO should I believe be that the driver fully controls the train doors, but a rules-competent guard is provided on board. So the train is 'controlled' by the driver, but is not crewed solely by them. What Southern do is DOO - the OBS is, regretfully, irrelevant, as they are merely revenue staff and the train will operate regardless of whether or not they are there. SWR have agreed to DCO on the 701s I believe, and as such the driver will operate the doors but the train won't move unless the guard is provided.

 

[dk1]

Thankfully here in East Anglia all regional & Intercity services that ran with a guard must still have one present to operate. Actually they now work on more than with the legacy fleet as also cover almost all trains between Cambridge & Stansted Airport too which where previously EMU shuttles to/from Cambridge. It was proposed that these regional & intercity services could operate DOO in an emergency situation when no guard could be provided & all attempts to find one had been exhausted. This proposal was later dropped to end the industrial dispute in 2018.

 

[warwickshire]

A lot of Greater Anglia is already DOO or will be once the Class 720s are in. Colchester Town, Southminster and Ipswich will become full DOO routes. West Anglia services are already DOO throughout. Its mainly former Anglia services that are guarded now and frankly I can't believe that wouldn't continue mainly to prevent fare evasion.

Dont forget Braintree to Witham on 10 car 720. ASDO signs for drivers already in place on route. Think that went last year September 2021. When the final 12 car 321 ended on route.

 

[Kite159]

From memory the guards who boarded the Braintree services at Witham when they were 12 coaches sat in one of the cabs and didn't really do anything for passengers.

The method used by GA on the 755 routes where the driver does the doors and guard is free for customers means the guard doesn't have to worry about stopping checking/selling tickets to do the doors. Although there are some bad eggs who will just sit in the back cab reading a book without a care at what is happening in the passenger area.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The method used by GA on the 755 routes where the driver does the doors and guard is free for customers means the guard doesn't have to worry about stopping checking/selling tickets to do the doors. Although there are some bad eggs who will just sit in the back cab reading a book without a care at what is happening in the passenger area.

Greater Anglia are rather pro regular ticket inspection on the 755s, in my experience. I often see them come through after every station, even Manea once. Whether or not people interpret that as good revenue protection or being a bit desperate is up to them. But they’re certainly not often hiding in the cabs, unlike London Northwestern Railway.

 

[Kite159]

Greater Anglia are rather pro regular ticket inspection on the 755s, in my experience. I often see them come through after every station, even Manea once. Whether or not people interpret that as good revenue protection or being a bit desperate is up to them. But they’re certainly not often hiding in the cabs, unlike London Northwestern Railway.

Probably getting people back into the habit of buying tickets after the period where the guards would hide away in the back cab due to Covid, after-all there are plenty of stations which don't have barriers.

I dread to think how many tickets got sold for Salhouse or Brundall Gardens simply to bypass the gateline at Norwich etc

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Probably getting people back into the habit of buying tickets after the period where the guards would hide away in the back cab due to Covid, after-all there are plenty of stations which don't have barriers.

I dread to think how many tickets got sold for Salhouse or Brundall Gardens simply to bypass the gateline at Norwich etc

ScotRail have been rather adept with this issue, they in fact have posters up about how revenue are aware that people do this on the Bathgate route (Buying to Edinburgh Park and continuing towards Glasgow) and are able to catch out the regulars and fine them.

 

[Kite159]

ScotRail have been rather adept with this issue, they in fact have posters up about how revenue are aware that people do this on the Bathgate route (Buying to Edinburgh Park and continuing towards Glasgow) and are able to catch out the regulars and fine them.

Although in Scotland it is different in terms of the law. Generally unless you are idiotic enough to do it regularly to allow Scotrail to build a fraud case against you, the worst that can happen is to pay the anytime fare, which for some routes is pretty much the same fare as they would paid if they purchased beforehand. No penalty fare scheme exists

One poster springs to mind about someone getting caught buying tickets from Slateford (or another station close by) to Edinburgh and collecting them via TOD at Bellshill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Greater Anglia are rather pro regular ticket inspection on the 755s, in my experience. I often see them come through after every station, even Manea once. Whether or not people interpret that as good revenue protection or being a bit desperate is up to them. But they’re certainly not often hiding in the cabs, unlike London Northwestern Railway.

Which isn't a COVID thing. One could be forgiven for thinking LNR is DOO. And when tickets are done it is always the same few guards.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Which isn't a COVID thing. One could be forgiven for thinking LNR is DOO. And when tickets are done it is always the same few guards.

Oh I know. They’ve always done it, and they operate doors from the cab too unlike SWR^ who continue to use the panels in the carriages even after the office was removed.

^Referring to the majority here; I have seen door control shift to the cab for some guards recently a la LNR

 

[dk1]

Oh I know. They’ve always done it, and they operate doors from the cab too unlike SWR^ who continue to use the panels in the carriages even after the office was removed.

^Referring to the majority here; I have seen door control shift to the cab for some guards recently a la LNR

Drivers look after all control on GA. Guards (where provided) only close them during degraded working.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Drivers look after all control on GA. Guards (where provided) only close them during degraded working.

Yes I was talking about LNR. I know the thread is about GA, but it was for comparison purposes.

Am I right in thinking 745 on IC run with a guard but run driver only on StanEx?

 

[dk1]

Yes I was talking about LNR. I know the thread is about GA, but it was for comparison purposes.

Am I right in thinking 745 on IC run with a guard but run driver only on StanEx?

Yes that is correct. Stansted is West Anglia whereas Norwich IC are Anglia drivers. All trains that had guards before 2018 have to have one now too.