Eight new cities to mark Platinum Jubilee

[Old Yard Dog]

Turning to cities west of the Pennines, much as I like Liverpool (or should I say Everton) and consider it a far more interesting city than Manchester, its chip shops are abysmal and there is a serious shortage of curry houses. In Manchester and Lancashire chip shops you can get the wonderful Holland's steak pudding, chips, peas and gravy - and Rusholme has some very good curry houses. Sadly steak puddings have yet to reach Liverpool or where I now live in Ellesmere Port.

When we discuss the sizes of cities, official population figures can be misleading. Three of our major cities, Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle have the very large towns/cities, Birkenhead, Salford and Gateshead immediately adjacent. I would imagine the people of these smaller towns/cities "defer" to some extent or other to their bigger neighbours, going there to shop and for the nightlife. So are they part of one big "city"?

Bradford, of course, will never "defer" to Leeds. The cities are too far apart, one is built of Yorkshire stone and the other of ubiquitous brick, and there is too much historic rivalry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Turning to cities west of the Pennines, much as I like Liverpool (or should I say Everton) and consider it a far more interesting city than Manchester, its chip shops are abysmal and there is a serious shortage of curry houses. In Manchester and Lancashire chip shops you can get the wonderful Holland's steak pudding, chips, peas and gravy - and Rusholme has some very good curry houses. Sadly steak puddings have yet to reach Liverpool or where I now live in Ellesmere Port.

Liverpool chippies are typically Chinese-run, and unlike elsewhere in the UK tend to integrate the function of a Chinese takeaway and a chippy. This is unusual outside Liverpool - by me there's a Chinese and a chippy run by the same people and where you can see it's possible to walk through between them at the back but as far as the customer is concerned they are independent and keep slightly different hours. This tends to mean slightly different menus than elsewhere, with some hybrid stuff e.g. I used to love having mushroom gravy and chips (with big chunky mushrooms) at the one round the corner from my Nan.

(This is probably partly why "'arf 'n' 'arf" - half chips, half rice - is a common accompaniment to a Chinese meal on Merseyside, but if I do it down here I get funny looks!)

The lack of curry restaurants is the effect of the rather odd demographic shift between Manchester/north and central Lancashire and Liverpool/south west Lancashire. The Manchester side has very high Asian populations, the Liverpool side has almost none, with the only common ethnic minorities being Chinese and Black Caribbean people (and very large Irish populations though I'd not really consider them a minority these days*). I have never understood why this is the case, it's not like there's a wall across the East Lancs Road!

* The Scouse accent is sort of a Lancastrian-Irish hybrid, a bit like the way Brummie is a bit of a North-South hybrid.

 

[johncrossley]

When we discuss the sizes of cities, official population figures can be misleading. Three of our major cities, Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle have the very large towns/cities, Birkenhead, Salford and Gateshead immediately adjacent. I would imagine the people of these smaller towns/cities "defer" to some extent or other to their bigger neighbours, going there to shop and for the nightlife. So are they part of one big "city"?

That's why the Office of National Statistics have provided urban area populations, where they consider a place a single urban area where buildings are sufficiently close together, ignoring artificial historical boundaries.

List of urban areas in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bradford, of course, will never "defer" to Leeds. The cities are too far apart, one is built of Yorkshire stone and the other of ubiquitous brick, and there is too much historic rivalry.

Actually, they aren't 'far apart', and the Office of National Statistics have defined a West Yorkshire Built Up Area, including Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and Wakefield. You can see clearly on the map that there is continuous urbanisation between Leeds and Bradford. Similarly there are joins between the other towns in the Built Up Area.

West Yorkshire Built-up Area - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[D821]

Sadly steak puddings have yet to reach Liverpool or where I now live in Ellesmere Port.

I remember them from when I was younger but local chippies don't have them anymore. I imagine pies are easier as they can be (*shudder*) microwaved and served easier than puddings.

 

[Bantamzen]

There can't be many chippies left that still cook with tallow. Certainly not any in my part of the world (south Lincolnshire)

You get quite a number in Yorkshire but very few elsewhere.

Yeah, we still like our lard in Yorkshire. How long that will last with ever changing dietary changes in society who knows, but they are still pretty common around here. Though to be fair in parts of West & South Yorkshire there often a vast choice of establishments offering fish & chips cooked in vegetable oil, so if beef dripping isn't someone's thing they will usually have plenty of other choices, though quality does vary wildly.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder the thread is to discuss Eight new cities to mark Platinum Jubilee

We would welcome a thread to discuss how fish & chip shops differ around the country; if anyone would like to create one, feel free to do so and you may also link to any such thread from this one.

 

[johnnychips]

Chip Shop discussion

We would welcome a thread to discuss how fish & chip shops differ around the country; if anyone would like to create one, feel free to do so and you may also link to any such thread from this one. OK, let’s do it. Just some observations having moved from near Manchester to South Yorkshire...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Loppylugs]

Nothing against the place... and as much as I dislike the way the football thing happened, I don't lose sleep over it. Especially given how AFC Wimbledon shafted Kingstonian afterwards.

AFC Wimbledon saved Kingstonian from extinction by buying their ground and allowing them to share after the K's owner well and truly dropped them in it. After the sale of Kingsmeadow to Chelsea, AFC gave Kingstonian a million quid to keep them solvent. I don't call that shafting them.
Franchise can now call themselves MK City and drop the Dons suffix. AFC Wimbledon are the true Dons (along with Aberdeen).

 

[Bletchleyite]

AFC Wimbledon saved Kingstonian from extinction by buying their ground and allowing them to share after the K's owner well and truly dropped them in it. After the sale of Kingsmeadow to Chelsea, AFC gave Kingstonian a million quid to keep them solvent. I don't call that shafting them.
Franchise can now call themselves MK City and drop the Dons suffix. AFC Wimbledon are the true Dons (along with Aberdeen).

There is actually a fairly strong opinion in MK to rename the club, not just from the Wimbledon end of things - I suspect the city status might well bring the final push to rename to Milton Keynes City, though there will be some objection from those who followed the old club of that name, descended from Bletchley Town FC, which died off as a result of the "import" of the Dons.

It is in many ways a shame Winkleman didn't invest in that club instead.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Bradford has just been named as the UK's "City of Culture" for 2025

 

[roversfan2001]

Bradford has just been named as the UK's "City of Culture" for 2025

I assume that means Milton Keynes didn't apply?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume that means Milton Keynes didn't apply?

Give us chance, one thing at a time!

 

[AlterEgo]

I assume that means Milton Keynes didn't apply?

City of Culture is now normally given to places which could really do with the leg-up.

Derry, Hull, Coventry, now Bradford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

City of Culture is now normally given to places which could really do with the leg-up.

Derry, Hull, Coventry, now Bradford.

In all seriousness, the Euro-version (Capital of Culture) did provide a massive "leg-up" to Liverpool city centre, which in the early 2000s had become a rather down at heel, dowdy, litter-strewn place very much starved of funding. I really didn't like it back then, it's so much of a nicer place now.

I hope it does the same for Bradford.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

That's why the Office of National Statistics have provided urban area populations, where they consider a place a single urban area where buildings are sufficiently close together, ignoring artificial historical boundaries.

List of urban areas in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually, they aren't 'far apart', and the Office of National Statistics have defined a West Yorkshire Built Up Area, including Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax and Wakefield. You can see clearly on the map that there is continuous urbanisation between Leeds and Bradford. Similarly there are joins between the other towns in the Built Up Area.

West Yorkshire Built-up Area - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 115460

Hardly. There's a very narrow ribbon of houses along the main Leeds-Bradford road and that is it.



Pan out a little more and you will see there is a wide green belt between the two cities.

 

[Bantamzen]

In all seriousness, the Euro-version (Capital of Culture) did provide a massive "leg-up" to Liverpool city centre, which in the early 2000s had become a rather down at heel, dowdy, litter-strewn place very much starved of funding. I really didn't like it back then, it's so much of a nicer place now.

I hope it does the same for Bradford.

In all honesty it won't have the huge effect it had on Liverpool, because as you said that was the European version. But it will have some impact here, watching the result come in and the reaction showed it meant something here, and that is a big step in the right direction for us. Suddenly civic pride is centre stage, and we have the chance to build on that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

Hardly. There's a very narrow ribbon of houses along the main Leeds-Bradford road and that is it.

View attachment 115510

Pan out a little more and you will see there is a wide green belt between the two cities.

There should be a bloody wall between us and them over in L***s...

 

[johncrossley]

Hardly. There's a very narrow ribbon of houses along the main Leeds-Bradford road and that is it.

View attachment 115510

Pan out a little more and you will see there is a wide green belt between the two cities.

You can't pretend that there's a Berlin Wall between Leeds and Bradford. Leeds/Bradford would be a significantly less important place if Bradford didn't exist and there was 20 miles of countryside around Leeds.

Petty civic rivalry helps neither settlement. The Manchester region used to be the same but eventually they realised it is basically one city and it has prospered as a result. The Black Country and Solihull still pretend they are totally separate and fail to embrace the concept of a 'Greater Birmingham' and as a result Birmingham has fallen behind Manchester. Nowadays, regardless of what the population statistics say and where the boundaries are, most people think Manchester is the second city whereas a few decades ago Birmingham was the undisputed second city.

 

[Busaholic]

Petty civic rivalry helps neither settlement. The Manchester region used to be the same but eventually they realised it is basically one city and it has prospered as a result. The Black Country and Solihull still pretend they are totally separate and fail to embrace the concept of a 'Greater Birmingham' and as a result Birmingham has fallen behind Manchester. Nowadays, regardless of what the population statistics say and where the boundaries are, most people think Manchester is the second city whereas a few decades ago Birmingham was the undisputed second city.

Trafford used to be a bit of a Solihull, but in essence I think you're right. The huge success of trams in Manchester compared with the Birmingham experience is probably a good example. Andy Street talks the talk, and is a likeable guy, but Andy Burnham has achieved a lot more, and I don't particularly like him.

 

[Loppylugs]

There should be a bloody wall between us and them over in L***s...

Now now, no bad feelings. After all, you've shared the name of the airport together for 90 years

 

[Old Yard Dog]

That's because it was originally called Leeds and Bradford Municipal Aerodrome and was jointly owned and developed by Bradford and Leeds corporations

 

[najaB]

Liverpool chippies are typically Chinese-run, and unlike elsewhere in the UK tend to integrate the function of a Chinese takeaway and a chippy.

It's not uncommon in Scotland.

 

[adrock1976]

That's what bugs me about it. As a comparison, Wigan Athletic climbed from the depths of non-league to the top-flight, and did so without highjacking an existing club that had fallen on hard times. The original Wimbledon also did this, and it was really only a dispute with Merton Council that led to them being homeless. For some reason they seemed to attract nefarious investors hoping to relocate them to places without EPL or EFL teams... anyone else remember the "Dublin Dons" proposal?

Milton Keynes should have built a team from the ground up, not stolen one. That move indirectly led to Kingstonian slipping down the non-league pyramid more than AFC Wimbledon's oversights did. Without the first crime, the second couldn't have happened.

The idea that the *city* stole a club rather than simply support its local team once it was on its doorstep is quite a stretch.

Anyway, I live a few hundred yards from Dial Square in Woolwich so I’m familiar with the idea of transplanting football teams. It’s a very tedious discussion to have other than to say “no, probably the way MK Dons came into being shouldn’t be replicated again”.

There is actually a fairly strong opinion in MK to rename the club, not just from the Wimbledon end of things - I suspect the city status might well bring the final push to rename to Milton Keynes City, though there will be some objection from those who followed the old club of that name, descended from Bletchley Town FC, which died off as a result of the "import" of the Dons.

It is in many ways a shame Winkleman didn't invest in that club instead.

When Winkleman stole the original Wimbledon/bought a place in the league back in 2003 (instead of as mentioned investing in Bletchley Town and working their way up through the pyramid system), there had already been a precedent set eight years earlier in Scotland.

In 1995, Meadowbank Thistle (based in that area of Edinburgh and when founded in 1948 started out as the works side of the Ferranti factory and named Ferranti Thistle. As there were strict rules on advertising at the time, they changed the first name to the area of the city) were purchased by Dominic Keane and relocated westwards to the Almondvale Stadium in the New Town of Livingston (and renamed to Livingston FC). Again, it was buying a place in the league.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Possibly a more recent precedent in Scotland. In 2002, the old Airdrieonians club went into liquidation and lost their place in the Scottish League, being replaced by Gretna. A new "phoenix" club was created, Airdrie United, who got themselves a place in the Scottish League by buying out (and renaming) the homeless Clydebank FC.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

But Clydebank has skeletons in its cupboard. In 1964, East Stirling was relocated, i.e. franchised, 32 miles from Falkirk to Clydebank, amalgamating with Clydebank Juniors FC to form ES Clydebank. They were unamalgamated and back in Falkirk within a year. A new Clydebank FC joined the league in 1966, evening up the number of clubs in Division Two from 19 to 20.

East Stirling closed its Firs Park home in 2008 and moved in with its neighbours Stenhousemuir. In 1972, I rushed from a game kicking off at 6.30 at Stenhousemuir to see the last 35 minutes of a game kicking off at 7.30 at Firs Park (as you do). In 2018, the club moved from Stenhousemuir to ground share at Falkirk FC's new ground which has a plastic pitch, like many in Scotland.

In 2016, East Stirling were relegated to the Lowland League after losing to Edinburgh City in the play-offs. Edinburgh City started their League life at Meadowbank Stadium, vacated by Meadowbank Thistle after they were franchised to Livingston. However City are currently groundsharing with Spartans FC while Meadowbank is being redeveloped.

Keeping track of Scottish football is a complicated business.

 

[DarloRich]

another plus for MK having city status: I can now get a starship delivery robot at my end of town sorry CITY.

Milton Keynes by DarloRich2009, on Flickr