Fare evasion on staff pass

[hanni90]

Hi all, am looking for some advice, here are the background facts thank you in advance

- Stopped using my partners staff pass, she is an employee of TFL
- I have used her pass maybe 6-8 times since April to go to work
- There is no nominee pass already issued, hadn't got round to applying for one for me yet although we have the forms
-We are 7 weeks away from completing on our first house, have been saving for many years to finally be able to afford a mortgage

My question is what can we do now? The pass was confiscated from me by a RPO, does this automatically mean my partner will lose her job? If so that means our mortgage offer and house sale will fall through. My job role requires enhanced security clearance so you can imagine right now it feels like our world is crashing down. Any advice would be gladly appreciated

We both feel physicall sick, we hardly slept last night and she has gone to work this morning anxious and shaking

Thank you

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi all, am looking for some advice, here are the background facts thank you in advance

- Stopped using my partners staff pass, she is an employee of TFL
- I have used her pass maybe 6-8 times since April to go to work
- There is no nominee pass already issued, hadn't got round to applying for one for me yet although we have the forms
-We are 7 weeks away from completing on our first house, have been saving for many years to finally be able to afford a mortgage

My question is what can we do now? The pass was confiscated from me by a RPO, does this automatically mean my partner will lose her job? If so that means our mortgage offer and house sale will fall through. My job role requires enhanced security clearance so you can imagine right now it feels like our world is crashing down. Any advice would be gladly appreciated

We both feel physicall sick, we hardly slept last night and she has gone to work this morning anxious and shaking

Thank you

Welcome to the forum.

In the first instance, your partner should get in touch with her union rep to find out how things work where she is.

 

[hanni90]

Welcome to the forum.

In the first instance, your partner should get in touch with her union rep to find out how things work where she is.

Thank you for replying!

She is not part of the Union and is afraid to join as she says all the reps "gossip".

She is going to speak to her Manager today to let them know what has happened

 

[AlterEgo]

There is not a huge amount of advice to be given at this stage. Regrettably, your partner, having chosen not to join the union, will meet their manager without their representation. Did your partner allow you to use the card or were they in any way negligent in allowing you to use it? If so, they may be in big trouble. However, at the moment, you should wait and see what happens.

You will be contacted by letter from TfL’s prosecutions team and once that arrives please post it here (with your personal details redacted) and we can advise more on specifics.

 

[hanni90]

There is not a huge amount of advice to be given at this stage. Regrettably, your partner, having chosen not to join the union, will meet their manager without their representation. Did your partner allow you to use the card or were they in any way negligent in allowing you to use it? If so, they may be in big trouble. However, at the moment, you should wait and see what happens.

You will be contacted by letter from TfL’s prosecutions team and once that arrives please post it here (with your personal details redacted) and we can advise more on specifics.

On those occasions she would choose to take her car to work as no transport links that early in the morning, so would leave her oyster card at home.

I would then choose to use it for myself to then get to work, hope that makes sense

I forgot to add that I did not answer any questions to the officer as it was on a packed train and extremely embarressing. I was not cautioned in any way I politely declined to make any comments. Was this the wrong thing to do?

 

[Gloster]

One thing is that if you are going to move soon, make sure that your post is redirected to your new address from the date you move. You can get information on it from the Redirection pages on the Royal Mail’s website and it is worth doing it as soon as you exchange contracts on the new house, giving the date of moving in as the start date. This will mean you do not miss any letter related to this matter (or anything else).

 

[AlterEgo]

On those occasions she would choose to take her car to work as no transport links that early in the morning, so would leave her oyster card at home.

I would then choose to use it for myself to then get to work, hope that makes sense

I forgot to add that I did not answer any questions to the officer as it was on a packed train and extremely embarressing. I was not cautioned in any way I politely declined to make any comments. Was this the wrong thing to do?

You have the right not to answer any questions put to you and, if I were somehow caught in the circumstances you describe, would also decline to answer. Answering in the heat of the moment, without legal representation and under caution, is often unwise.

TfL will be in touch soon and you will have your chance to tell your side of the story, which you can do having had some time to think about how much you say and how you phrase it (it is important when that letter comes that you answer only honestly, however).

Some members here like to advise people to fall on their swords immediately out of a sense of moral propiety or in the belief train companies get “angry” at people using their legal right to not answer questions. TfL are dispassionate and are in the business of collecting fares and prosecuting/settling with people who evade the fare.

The more immediate issue is that regardless of whether or not they prosecute you, there may be consequences for your partner. They may lose their travel benefits, or suffer other disciplinary consequences. TfL can do this as they please and this process is separate from the legal wrangle you personally find yourself in.

 

[Haywain]

You will be contacted by letter from TfL’s prosecutions team and once that arrives please post it here (with your personal details redacted) and we can advise more on specifics.

If no details were taken this may not happen.

On those occasions she would choose to take her car to work as no transport links that early in the morning, so would leave her oyster card at home.

I would then choose to use it for myself to then get to work, hope that makes sense

I forgot to add that I did not answer any questions to the officer as it was on a packed train and extremely embarressing. I was not cautioned in any way I politely declined to make any comments. Was this the wrong thing to do?

It is difficult to give advice on what may happen now. But it is the case that TfL will take a dim view of a staff pass being misused in this way and it is not out of the question that your partner will be subject to disciplinary action. The consequences of this could be very serious.

 

[AlterEgo]

If no details were taken this may not happen.

I am sure the OP can confirm if details were given - they have a legal obligation to do this and it is difficult to imagine they were allowed to leave without having done this.

 

[Gloster]

I am no expert (and may have missed something), but if the Inspector confiscated the pass, they will know who it is issued to. Your partner will have to explain why it was being used by someone who was not them, but had not been reported lost or stolen. Others will provide advice as to what you must consider, but do not lie.

 

[hanni90]

Thank you I will be sure to do that asap

One thing is that if you are going to move soon, make sure that your post is redirected to your new address from the date you move. You can get information on it from the Redirection pages on the Royal Mail’s website and it is worth doing it as soon as you exchange contracts on the new house, giving the date of moving in as the start date. This will mean you do not miss any letter related to this matter (or anything else).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

You have the right not to answer any questions put to you and, if I were somehow caught in the circumstances you describe, would also decline to answer. Answering in the heat of the moment, without legal representation and under caution, is often unwise.

TfL will be in touch soon and you will have your chance to tell your side of the story, which you can do having had some time to think about how much you say and how you phrase it (it is important when that letter comes that you answer only honestly, however).

Some members here like to advise people to fall on their swords immediately out of a sense of moral propiety or in the belief train companies get “angry” at people using their legal right to not answer questions. TfL are dispassionate and are in the business of collecting fares and prosecuting/settling with people who evade the fare.

The more immediate issue is that regardless of whether or not they prosecute you, there may be consequences for your partner. They may lose their travel benefits, or suffer other disciplinary consequences. TfL can do this as they please and this process is separate from the legal wrangle you personally find yourself in.

This is what is most worrying as if she loses her job 7 weeks before we are due to complete will have have massive consequences for us. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

If no details were taken this may not happen.

It is difficult to give advice on what may happen now. But it is the case that TfL will take a dim view of a staff pass being misused in this way and it is not out of the question that your partner will be subject to disciplinary action. The consequences of this could be very serious.

The RPO took my name, dob and address and of course confiscated my partners pass

 

[Watershed]

This is what is most worrying as if she loses her job 7 weeks before we are due to complete will have have massive consequences for us. Thank you

Bear in mind that, if you were asked about something in your mortgage application and the answer has now changed - you have an ongoing duty to disclose this. Mortgage lenders can and do undertake last-minute checks to verify that all the information is still correct, and if they find out you haven't disclosed something, it could be quite detrimental. So if you have a mortgage advisor/broker, it might well be worth discussing this situation with them.

 

[hanni90]

Bear in mind that, if you were asked about something in your mortgage application and the answer has now changed - you have an ongoing duty to disclose this. Mortgage lenders can and do undertake last-minute checks to verify that all the information is still correct, and if they find out you haven't disclosed something, it could be quite detrimental. So if you have a mortgage advisor/broker, it might well be worth discussing this situation with them.

I will be sure to do that today, thank you

 

[Haywain]

Bear in mind that, if you were asked about something in your mortgage application and the answer has now changed - you have an ongoing duty to disclose this. Mortgage lenders can and do undertake last-minute checks to verify that all the information is still correct, and if they find out you haven't disclosed something, it could be quite detrimental. So if you have a mortgage advisor/broker, it might well be worth discussing this situation with them.

This would also potentially have impact on an associated insurance application.

 

[WesternLancer]

She is not part of the Union and is afraid to join as she says all the reps "gossip".

This is probably not the wisest position to take ref the union, tho I understand what you are saying.

Maybe think of union membership like an insurance policy - if you never have to speak to the reps to get their help I would think they never have anything to gossip about.

If it comes to disciplinary action / formal warnings etc for her then I suspect you can take a trusted friend or colleague in with you (does not have to be a union rep) or if threat of losing job / mortgage / house etc - then I guess she could potentially engage a solicitor with employment law skills to help instead. Would cost more than union membership I guess but you have explained how serious you realise this now is so may feel that the cost of it is justified. Could maybe get some quotes from solicitors to see how much this option would cost if felt it was necessary.

I hope you can minimise the impact of all this.

EDIT - strikethrough in light of clarifications from others below.

 

[hanni90]

This is probably not the wisest position to take ref the union, tho I understand what you are saying.

Maybe think of union membership like an insurance policy - if you never have to speak to the reps to get their help I would think they never have anything to gossip about.

If it comes to disciplinary action / formal warnings etc for her then I suspect you can take a trusted friend or colleague in with you (does not have to be a union rep) or if threat of losing job / mortgage / house etc - then I guess she could potentially engage a solicitor with employment law skills to help instead. Would cost more than union membership I guess but you have explained how serious you realise this now is so may feel that the cost of it is justified. Could maybe get some quotes from solicitors to see how much this option would cost if felt it was necessary.

I hope you can minimise the impact of all this.

This seems like a really good idea, I haven't eaten since yesterday just cups of tea. I am so worried with stress, its like a ticking timebomb.

She went to see her manager today but he is not back in until Monday, so its still a waiting game until then

Thanks all, I do appreciate all the replies

 

[Haywain]

Maybe think of union membership like an insurance policy - if you never have to speak to the reps to get their help I would think they never have anything to gossip about.

Union membership is one of those things, like insurance, that you never want to make use of, but it does afford a measure of protection in employment matters in particular.

If it comes to disciplinary action / formal warnings etc for her then I suspect you can take a trusted friend or colleague in with you (does not have to be a union rep) or if threat of losing job / mortgage / house etc - then I guess she could potentially engage a solicitor with employment law skills to help instead. Would cost more than union membership I guess but you have explained how serious you realise this now is so may feel that the cost of it is justified. Could maybe get some quotes from solicitors to see how much this option would cost if felt it was necessary.

My recollection is that employer's policies are likely to allow a fellow employee to attend a hearing if no union rep is present. An outsider, such as a solicitor, is not usually allowed as this is an employment matter. Union reps are particularly useful in this respect as they have generally had an element of training from the union enabling them to address and challenge matters of procedure which is where the disciplinary process usually fails.

 

[WesternLancer]

My recollection is that employer's policies are likely to allow a fellow employee to attend a hearing if no union rep is present. An outsider, such as a solicitor, is not usually allowed as this is an employment matter. Union reps are particularly useful in this respect as they have generally had an element of training from the union enabling them to address and challenge matters of procedure which is where the disciplinary process usually fails.

Thanks for this clarification / correction. I did not know for sure. I guess it may vary from workplace to workplace, so the OP's partner could check - tho I suspect there are people on this forum who are reps and will know for sure.

If it were me I'd now be joining the union ASAP - even if some/most unions will not take up cases from members who have only joined after they have faced a problem, there are sometimes workplace level reps who will lend a sympathetic hand despite that policy as they often recognise the wider benefit in terms of recruiting to the union for the long term, and might help even if only to give informal words of advice - which can be of great value as a good chance the reps will probably have seen the same situation before.

 

[Watershed]

My recollection is that employer's policies are likely to allow a fellow employee to attend a hearing if no union rep is present. An outsider, such as a solicitor, is not usually allowed as this is an employment matter. Union reps are particularly useful in this respect as they have generally had an element of training from the union enabling them to address and challenge matters of procedure which is where the disciplinary process usually fails.

Yes, employment law is rather bizarre in this respect. There is a statutory right to bring in a colleague or TU rep, but not anyone else. It's one of the few reasons it can be worthwhile becoming a union member, even if they aren't "recognised" at your workplace.

 

[WesternLancer]

This seems like a really good idea, I haven't eaten since yesterday just cups of tea. I am so worried with stress, its like a ticking timebomb.

She went to see her manager today but he is not back in until Monday, so its still a waiting game until then

Thanks all, I do appreciate all the replies

Really wish you well with this - not a nice position to be in at all so you have my sympathy.

Given advice from others over who could accompany your partner, if they face formal action etc, might be worth thinking about colleagues they trust and respect who they could confide in, if they could accompany your partner given union might not be an option. Just a thought.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, employment law is rather bizarre in this respect. There is a statutory right to bring in a colleague or TU rep, but not anyone else.

It actually provides a level playing field, in that neither side uses legal professionals. In my experience, union reps generally know far more about the legal aspects and procedural matters than managers hearing such matters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

Given advice from others over who could accompany your partner, if they face formal action etc, might be worth thinking about colleagues they trust and respect who they could confide in, if they could accompany your partner given union might not be an option. Just a thought.

Worth adding that a union rep can speak for a member, but a colleague is only permitted to be a witness to events.

 

[Twotwo]

I hope your partner doesn't get penalised but honestly without the union I'd be a little worried as it is a clause 9 offense. I hope it all works out, the members here are really knowledgeable.

 

[Watershed]

It actually provides a level playing field, in that neither side uses legal professionals. In my experience, union reps generally know far more about the legal aspects and procedural matters than managers hearing such matters.

True, but the meeting can have significant repercussions for any potential claim for unfair dismissal etc. - just as a police interview can have significant implications for a prosecution. So it seems out of keeping that there is no right to have a solicitor present.

Worth adding that a union rep can speak for a member, but a colleague is only permitted to be a witness to events.

That's not correct. Section 10 of the Employment Relations Act 1999 refers:

(1) This section applies where a worker—

(a) is required or invited by his employer to attend a disciplinary or grievance hearing, and​

(b) reasonably requests to be accompanied at the hearing.​

(2A) Where this section applies, the employer must permit the worker to be accompanied at the hearing by one companion who—

(a) is chosen by the worker; and​

(b) is within subsection (3).​

(2B) The employer must permit the worker’s companion to—

(a) address the hearing in order to do any or all of the following—​

(i) put the worker’s case;​

(ii) sum up that case;​

(iii) respond on the worker’s behalf to any view expressed at the hearing;​

(b) confer with the worker during the hearing.​

...

(3) A person is within this subsection if he is—

(a) employed by a trade union of which he is an official within the meaning of sections 1 and 119 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992,​

(b) an official of a trade union (within that meaning) whom the union has reasonably certified in writing as having experience of, or as having received training in, acting as a worker’s companion at disciplinary or grievance hearings, or​

(c) another of the employer’s workers.​

So the same rights of 'audience' apply to all types of companions, whether a TU rep or a colleague.

It's worth noting that there is no requirement, under this legislation for the employee to be a member of any TU to benefit from the above rights. If the rep is prepared to represent OP's partner (perhaps for a 'suitable fee'), they can still accompany them to any meeting.

 

[Haywain]

That's not correct. Section 10 of the Employment Relations Act 1999 refers:

...

So the same rights of 'audience' apply to all types of companions, whether a TU rep or a colleague.

It's worth noting that there is no requirement, under this legislation for the employee to be a member of any TU to benefit from the above rights. If the rep is prepared to represent OP's partner (perhaps for a 'suitable fee'), they can still accompany them to any meeting.

My mistake - I'm confusing the hearing with investigatory interviews when the colleague who is not a union rep is not permitted to speak.

 

[Bertie the bus]

TfL will be in touch soon and you will have your chance to tell your side of the story, which you can do having had some time to think about how much you say and how you phrase it (it is important when that letter comes that you answer only honestly, however).

Some members here like to advise people to fall on their swords immediately out of a sense of moral propiety or in the belief train companies get “angry” at people using their legal right to not answer questions. TfL are dispassionate and are in the business of collecting fares and prosecuting/settling with people who evade the fare.

Is it falling on your sword? Attending an interview regarding the misuse of a staff pass and proceeding to tell them you also stole a printer cartridge and that compassionate leave day you had was actually a drunken birthday party is falling on your sword.

If she knew her partner was using her pass then that is a breach of trust. If she is given the opportunity to mention it wasn’t the only time, doesn’t and further investigation shows it had been abused multiple times then that that could be considered a further breach of trust. If they do investigate further it isn’t as though they might think it was her using it as she was on shift at the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it falling on your sword? Attending an interview regarding the misuse of a staff pass and proceeding to tell them you also stole a printer cartridge and that compassionate leave day you had was actually a drunken birthday party is falling on your sword.

No, falling on your sword is offering a full and frank explanation and accepting the most suitably severe punishment, not random admissions to some other unrelated stuff. That's not what the idiom means.

If she knew her partner was using her pass then that is a breach of trust. If she is given the opportunity to mention it wasn’t the only time, doesn’t and further investigation shows it had been abused multiple times then that that could be considered a further breach of trust.

But we are not advising the OP's partner here. We are advising the OP, who used the pass.

 

[some bloke]

If you have time, you and/or your partner might call one or more fare evasion specialist solicitors this afternoon, earlier rather than later.

You can describe the situation, see what they say in an initial chat/free initial consultation, and decide who if any you think could help with the employment law aspects even though they can't attend a hearing. Perhaps some solicitors in the London area have had enough dealings with TfL to be familiar with relevant issues.

@yorkie wrote:

"If you are looking for fare evasion specialists, I've heard good reports about Penman Sedgwick"

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-with-fare-evasion-case.231461/#post-5650990

https://penmansedgwick.com/fare-evasion/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

As you yourself would expect to be given some days to respond to TfL after they contact you, the employment law aspects seem to be a priority.

I don't know whether you will easily find individual solicitors or firms who/which have suitable expertise in both employment and criminal law - your partner may want to call one or more employment lawyers today for an initial chat in case there's an opportunity to clarify things before the long weekend. Many solicitors offer a free initial consultation.

 

[hanni90]

Thank you I have advised her to do so asap!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

Really wish you well with this - not a nice position to be in at all so you have my sympathy.

Given advice from others over who could accompany your partner, if they face formal action etc, might be worth thinking about colleagues they trust and respect who they could confide in, if they could accompany your partner given union might not be an option. Just a thought.

Thank you so much, I do appreciate that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

Is it falling on your sword? Attending an interview regarding the misuse of a staff pass and proceeding to tell them you also stole a printer cartridge and that compassionate leave day you had was actually a drunken birthday party is falling on your sword.

If she knew her partner was using her pass then that is a breach of trust. If she is given the opportunity to mention it wasn’t the only time, doesn’t and further investigation shows it had been abused multiple times then that that could be considered a further breach of trust. If they do investigate further it isn’t as though they might think it was her using it as she was on shift at the time.

That is correct, at those times she would have already been at work so would not dream of lying about that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

Thank you very much for providing that information. I will look into it right now as I have just finished work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

If you have time, you and/or your partner might call one or more fare evasion specialist solicitors this afternoon, earlier rather than later.

You can describe the situation, see what they say in an initial chat/free initial consultation, and decide who if any you think could help with the employment law aspects even though they can't attend a hearing. Perhaps some solicitors in the London area have had enough dealings with TfL to be familiar with relevant issues.


https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-with-fare-evasion-case.231461/#post-5650990

https://penmansedgwick.com/fare-evasion/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

As you yourself would expect to be given some days to respond to TfL after they contact you, the employment law aspects seem to be a priority.

I don't know whether you will easily find individual solicitors or firms who/which have suitable expertise in both employment and criminal law - your partner may want to call one or more employment lawyers today for an initial chat in case there's an opportunity to clarify things before the long weekend. Many solicitors offer a free initial consultation.

Thank you very much for providing that information. I will look into it right now as I have just finished work.

 

[Tubeboy]

Is your partner still on probation?

Did they take their pass with them when they went to work?

Were they aware of you using their pass?

 

[Haywain]

My job role requires enhanced security clearance

As an aside to everything else, you should consider whether you should be declaring this to your employer at this stage. If you are a member of a trade union you should take advice on this.