Managing Mersey Rail Crowds This week

[John Luxton]

Merseyrail announced a week ago that certain stations would be closed in Liverpool (plus Green Lane and Bromborough Rake) on May 28/29 due the need to manage expected large crowds travelling into the city for the football on Saturday evening and the post match parade on Sunday.

I was just wondering why closing James Street and Lime Street underground facilitates this?

If very large numbers are heading for the city centre would be better (and possibly safer) to dissipate the crowds over four stations rather than bottle them up into two stations.

There is probably logic to this but I can't quite see it. Anyone care to explain?

 

[Mojo]

Possibly means they can redistribute staff to manage the crowds at the remaining stations. Also the possible issue on a relatively low frequency service is that the trains might fill up at the other stations leaving customers unable to board later on. Not sure why however they’d have to close the non-under ground stations.

 

[mmh]

Merseyrail announced a week ago that certain stations would be closed in Liverpool (plus Green Lane and Bromborough Rake) on May 28/29 due the need to manage expected large crowds travelling into the city for the football on Saturday evening and the post match parade on Sunday.

I was just wondering why closing James Street and Lime Street underground facilitates this?

If very large numbers are heading for the city centre would be better (and possibly safer) to dissipate the crowds over four stations rather than bottle them up into two stations.

There is probably logic to this but I can't quite see it. Anyone care to explain?

Staffing and policing. The latter involves knowing where people are. It's very common for football policing to direct people to certain stations and prevent them from using others.

 

[John Luxton]

Staffing and policing. The latter involves knowing where people are. It's very common for football policing to direct people to certain stations and prevent them from using others.

Thanks

I could understand that if the crowds were heading for a stadium to watch the match

However, they will be heading for various bars and venues all around the city centre this evening - not one particular location.

Some may well be wanting to go to the waterfront but then have to walk back and closing Lime Street inconveniences passengers not travelling to or from the football related entertainment.

It appeared risky to have very large numbers in confined spaces, particularly if they get "lively" on the return home.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2022 ==

Possibly means they can redistribute staff to manage the crowds at the remaining stations. Also the possible issue on a relatively low frequency service is that the trains might fill up at the other stations leaving customers unable to board later on. Not sure why however they’d have to close the non-under ground stations.

Green Lane isn't particularly busy - or never appears to be when I pass through and Bromborough Rake is not too far from Bromborough - perhaps that is for staff redistribution as you say - though I think there would only be one member of staff in each location in the ticket office in the evenings.

 

[gc4946]

Capenhurst is also closed but only on 29th May.
Some metro operators allow passengers only to enter or leave specific stations when there are large events.
Merseyrail could have made Lime Street (deep level) exit only and Liverpool Central entry only on the Wirral and Chester lines, and Moorfields exit only and Liverpool Central entry only on the Northern line.

28 & 29 May

www.merseyrail.org

 

[mmh]

Thanks

I could understand that if the crowds were heading for a stadium to watch the match

However, they will be heading for various bars and venues all around the city centre this evening - not one particular location.

Some may well be wanting to go to the waterfront but then have to walk back and closing Lime Street inconveniences passengers not travelling to or from the football related entertainment.

It appeared risky to have very large numbers in confined spaces, particularly if they get "lively" on the return home.

That isn't what happens in such events. Many many people will have headed to Liverpool city centre, more than who have headed to Paris.

I was on a Holyhead to Chester train earlier and it was rammed with people from Ireland in Liverpool shirts to the point people struggled to board. Luggage racks full of cases with Stena Line tags on them.

Liverpool will be chaos tonight. I have no doubt it already will be.

 

[6Gman]

Merseyrail announced a week ago that certain stations would be closed in Liverpool (plus Green Lane and Bromborough Rake) on May 28/29 due the need to manage expected large crowds travelling into the city for the football on Saturday evening and the post match parade on Sunday.

I was just wondering why closing James Street and Lime Street underground facilitates this?

If very large numbers are heading for the city centre would be better (and possibly safer) to dissipate the crowds over four stations rather than bottle them up into two stations.

There is probably logic to this but I can't quite see it. Anyone care to explain?

Isn't James Street only accessible by lifts or the very long tunnel to Water Street?

I can understand why neither of those options would be considered wise.

 

[D821]

Merseyrail have used this before for previous bus tours and both times The Giants toured Liverpool.
They've had barriers ready in Moorfields all week.
Hopefully none of the units break down!

 

[jamesst]

Standard plan when there's big events on in Liverpool.
Moorfields for Northern line (big spacious station), Lime Street for national rail and Liverpool Central for Wirral (the Northern line platforms being considered too cramped).
James St doesn't have near enough the space or capacity for large crowds.
The non underground stations are to avoid the Chester timetable falling apart due to short turnarounds at Chester so the quietest stations have been picked to skip.

 

[John Luxton]

Standard plan when there's big events on in Liverpool.
Moorfields for Northern line (big spacious station), Lime Street for national rail and Liverpool Central for Wirral (the Northern line platforms being considered too cramped).
James St doesn't have near enough the space or capacity for large crowds.
The non underground stations are to avoid the Chester timetable falling apart due to short turnarounds at Chester so the quietest stations have been picked to skip.

I see but Lime Street is closed Saturday and Sunday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2022 ==

Isn't James Street only accessible by lifts or the very long tunnel to Water Street?

I can understand why neither of those options would be considered wise.

Yes it could be the lifts which form the bottleneck I noted earlier this week two lifts were out of order as well. Though the subway is a good way of keeping people moving. I would not imagine James Street becoming that busy though compared to the other city centre stations. But then again I tend to avoid the busy times!

 

[jamesst]

I see but Lime Street is closed Saturday and Sunday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2022 ==


Yes it could be the lifts which form the bottleneck I noted earlier this week two lifts were out of order as well. Though the subway is a good way of keeping people moving. I would not imagine James Street becoming that busy though compared to the other city centre stations. But then again I tend to avoid the busy times!

James Street and Lime Street were both open until 4pm today. With the sheer amount of people going into Liverpool today its a good move.

 

[Starmill]

Is there something else going on with Bromborough Rake? Surely trains can simply serve it while unstaffed, as happens frequently when they're short of ticket office staff at above ground stations across the network and at all times at Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton and Overpool.

Is it to give an additional 2 minutes dwell time in Liverpool by not stopping there?

Edit: I now see above that this point has already been hinted at by jamesst. Thank you.

 

[mmh]

Is there something else going on with Bromborough Rake? Surely trains can simply serve it while unstaffed, as happens frequently when they're short of ticket office staff at above ground stations across the network and at all times at Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton and Overpool.

Is it to give an additional 2 minutes dwell time in Liverpool by not stopping there?

Edit: I now see above that this point has already been hinted at by jamesst. Thank you.

I would have guessed so. There's little reason for people to go there at the weekend.

 

[geoffk]

I remember this happening a few years ago when the Birkenhead bus rally (to which a mate and I were going) clashed with the Liverpool Giants. We were going to drive from the other side of Manchester to South Parkway and get a train from there but we saw that interchanging at Central or Moorfields to get to Hamilton Square would have been impossible as one level at each was closed. We ended up driving to Hooton and parking there. Some of the stations on that route were missed but there were extra staff at the others.

 

[8J]

Rather predictably, last night was utter carnage at Liverpool Central after the match had finished. They were managing access to the station by stopping and starting a massive crowd of people but did not close the Bold St entrance. This subsequently resulted in repeated crushes with some minor injuries reported on social media.

Once access to the station was achieved, the bottom of the escalators to Wirral Line platform 3 was another bottleneck with people piling down the escalators (with no management at the top). The platforms were not managed well with people unable to stand back sufficiently for the train to be dispatched safely. A mixture of 3 and 6 car services made passengers reluctant to move down the platform. Staff did not know if the trains would be 3 or 6 car trains too. This was genuinely potentially dangerous situation caused, in part, by woeful crowd control, poor planning and a poorly laid out station for big events such as this.

They need to seriously review procedures for the next large scale event like this.

 

[prod_pep]

They were also miles off it during the day, I'm afraid. Far, far too few 6 car formations were out with only 2 of 10 formations on the Southport line and only 1 each on Ormskirk, Kirkby and Chester. Everything else was 3 car which was presumably affected by the ongoing shortage of stock. I assume these odd 6 cars were timed to form the last departures of the night to the various termini, but having one on the Kirkby line all day while most of the much busier Southport and Ormskirk trains were 3 car proved very silly indeed.

The network was creaking during the afternoon, particularly on the Northern Line where I witnessed two 3 car Southport - Hunts Cross trains in a row completely full, dangerously overcrowded and not boardable. For the FA Cup final two weeks ago, 8 of the 10 Southport line formations were pairs.

 

[jamesst]

They were also miles off it during the day, I'm afraid. Far, far too few 6 car formations were out with only 2 of 10 formations on the Southport line and only 1 each on Ormskirk, Kirkby and Chester. Everything else was 3 car which was presumably affected by the ongoing shortage of stock. I assume these odd 6 cars were timed to form the last departures of the night to the various termini, but having one on the Kirkby line all day while most of the much busier Southport and Ormskirk trains were 3 car proved very silly indeed.

The network was creaking during the afternoon, particularly on the Northern Line where I witnessed two 3 car Southport - Hunts Cross trains in a row completely full, dangerously overcrowded and not boardable. For the FA Cup final two weeks ago, 8 of the 10 Southport line formations were pairs.

Yeah a lot more 6 cars were booked both yesterday and today, however there is a pretty bad stock shortage at the moment making it pretty impossible. West Kirby sidings for example are currently filled with units requiring depot attention.

 

[wobman]

Tfw were running a 4x153s today between chester to Liverpool, they were quite busy at peak times but coped quite well considering.

 

[John Luxton]

Apparently Lime Street mainline was closed on Saturday evening around 23:00 which left many unable to get home.

'Shambolic' scenes as Lime Street closes early after final

Passengers missed their trains as Lime Street station closed due to a 'safety concern'

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Passengers missed their trains as Lime Street station closed due to a 'safety concern'

'Shambolic' scenes show 'hundreds' of people stuck outside Liverpool Lime Street after staff closed the station early.

Following the Champions League final match between Liverpool and Real Madrid, football fans attempted to return home, only to find Liverpool Lime Street shut.

This led to hundreds of people queuing outside the station confused as to the events unfolding. Video shared with the Liverpool ECHO shows the entrance to Lime Street closed with the security shutters rolled down.

Footage then pans to crowds gathering outside The Crown Hotel. Ben Redwood, 24, from London, was one of the passengers affected by Lime Street's closure.

He told the ECHO : "I was attempting to travel from Lime St to Manchester Piccadilly. I arrived at 11pm with a ticket but was locked outside the station with hundreds of other people.

"Every single police officer I spoke to said a different story, so they didn’t know what was going on. The police told us to get a taxi to Manchester. However, there were no taxis or Ubers. There was nobody offering any sort of advice. It was a shambles."

Another passenger said they were refused entry into the main concourse causing them to miss their 11.45pm train, despite arriving at 11.15pm. They said: "I spent £45 getting back to the hotel on the outskirts of the city, what should have been a simple train journey turned into a farcical situation."

Network Rail said their station manager made 'the difficult decision' to close the station at 11.12pm. The railway company told the ECHO this was due to 'safety concern' due to a large crowd gathered outside.

During the incident, National Rail said: "We're currently aware of safety concerns at Liverpool Lime Street due to the vast amount of people."

In a statement, British Transport Police said: "BTP were called at 10.56pm on May 28 to Liverpool Lime Street station following a report of crowding issues and disorder.

"Merseyside Police also assisted. A number of people were removed from the station grounds. An investigation into the incident is ongoing."

 

[Bow Fell]

Once access to the station was achieved, the bottom of the escalators to Wirral Line platform 3 was another bottleneck with people piling down the escalators (with no management at the top). The platforms were not managed well with people unable to stand back sufficiently for the train to be dispatched safely. A mixture of 3 and 6 car services made passengers reluctant to move down the platform. Staff did not know if the trains would be 3 or 6 car trains too. This was genuinely potentially dangerous situation caused, in part, by woeful crowd control, poor planning and a poorly laid out station for big events such as this.

I’m sorry but this is complete fiction.

I assume these odd 6 cars were timed to form the last departures of the night to the various termini, but having one on the Kirkby line all day while most of the much busier Southport and Ormskirk trains were 3 car proved very silly indeed.

Method in the madness, 6 car on the Kirkby as once you short form a Kirkby you can’t build it back up to a 6 car, if a unit became available (which it did)

Ormskirk / Southport line you can easily make a 6 car once a unit is available, which is what happened a unit was sent to Southport for 2228 to Hunts Cross & the final Kirkby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Method in the madness, 6 car on the Kirkby as once you short form a Kirkby you can’t build it back up to a 6 car, if a unit became available (which it did)

Ormskirk / Southport line you can easily make a 6 car once a unit is available, which is what happened a unit was sent to Southport for 2228 to Hunts Cross & the final Kirkby.

Why's that? Can you send a unit to Ormskirk and permissively work another on top to join them, but not Kirkby? If not there, where else could you do it that you couldn't for Kirkby?

 

[jamesst]

Why's that? Can you send a unit to Ormskirk and permissively work another on top to join them, but not Kirkby? If not there, where else could you do it that you couldn't for Kirkby?

Kirkby doesn't have permissive working capability (try saying that when you're sober!).
Ormskirks can be coupled /split at Ormskirk.
Liverpool Central is an option but that involves sending a replacement 6 from Kirkdale and taking the existing 3 out. Not an option with the current shortage.

 

[8J]

I’m sorry but this is complete fiction.

I'm sorry but I was there, not under the influence of alcohol and I know what I saw! Furthermore, know people that were actually injured in the crushes at the station entrance. Futhermore, I have photographic and video evidence of what happened on platform 3 that I am holding back from publishing. Were you actually at Central on Saturday night after the end of the game?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Trains full at Chester this afternoon, mainly by folk travelling from Liverpool to North Wales (and maybe on to Dublin), many wearing LFC shirts.
Full and standing on TfW's Liverpool-Chester (2x153), most transferring to a Cardiff-Holyhead Mk4 set at Chester.
Full and standing even in First Class on the Mk4 set (there are of course only 2.5 coaches of standard - the train is a lot smaller than it seems when it pulls in).

I was amused by the Mk4 PIS which said (in two languages, Welsh first) that "this train is 4 minutes late because of ... a problem under investigation".
The "problem" was quite obvious - PIXC - passengers in excess of capacity.
Two disabled passengers in wheelchairs were unable to board, as all the vestibules were full.
Presumably the cavernous DVT was standing empty.

The crowding might have had something to do with a problem on Merseyrail today, with some Chester trains cancelled or turned short at Hooton.
Something to do with traction equipment according to NRE.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm sorry but I was there, not under the influence of alcohol and I know what I saw! Furthermore, know people that were actually injured in the crushes at the station entrance. Futhermore, I have photographic and video evidence of what happened on platform 3 that I am holding back from publishing. Were you actually at Central on Saturday night after the end of the game?

The police always seem to have an embargo on information when dealing with football crowds. They treat us like caged wild animals then act surprised when a tiny minority respond in kind.