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Should there be more warnings against fare dodging?

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AlterEgo

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I won't disagree with what you say.

But - while split ticketing is allowed - if it results in a lower fare then for the correct ticket, is that not "fare dodging"? Or is the railway overcharging for the correct ticket?
No, and no. Using a combination of tickets isn’t fare dodging, which is the act of dishonestly depriving the railway by failing to pay your fare or furnish a ticket on demand.

There is no dishonesty in using more than one ticket to make a journey and I don’t understand your line of reasoning.
No - they are they paying the correct fares for two journeys
Incorrect. They are paying the fare for one journey by buying more than one ticket.
It has failed the golden rule for fare systems: that for any journey, the 'best' and the 'right' fares should be the same.
But that is respectfully well outside the discussion about people acting dishonestly on the railways, which you have successfully derailed now with a serious of incorrect posts.
 
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py_megapixel

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I know there are some people on this forum who hate supermarket analogies, but I'm going to use one nonetheless as I think it illustrates the point.

If a supermarket sells apples for 20p, and bags of six apples for £1.50, am I stealing if I buy six individual apples for a total of £1.20? Of course not. It's no different for train tickets, and I see no reason why it should be.
 

Watershed

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Coming back to the original thread premise, yes, I do think there should be more warnings of the consequences of not having a valid ticket. They don't necessarily need to involve an announcement every few stops about Penalty Fares, as happens on the Overground for instance, but there is certainly more the industry could and should do if it wants to make use of heavy-handed criminal law to pursue people.

Might I point out that split ticketing for the purpose of saving money (i.e. buying tickets A-B and B-C, for less than a ticket A-B-C, for a journey A-B-C, which I assume why most people do so) is - prima facie - fare evasion: anybody who does so has not paid the correct fare for their jouney (and does not intend to). In this case the railway (collectively, including ticket agencies) are acting as an accessory in facilitating this.
If you want to call it anything, the closest term is probably fare avoidance. It's perfectly legal and there are many accredited providers that will help you buy your tickets in this way. It's no different to putting your investments into an ISA rather than using a general investment account - you avoid paying certain taxes by doing so, but it's quite legal. I suppose the difference is that such tax breaks are intentional whereas the opportunities to save money by splitting are generally not intentional. But nothing particularly turns on that point.

I do sometimes wonder (based on threads on this forum) how well ticket inspectors (who are expected to learn and know what is valid and what not) would do if given a test of say 1000 dubiously valid tickets and circumstances - how many would score 100%? Should they be expected to? And if they fail, with what consequences? And how well should other staff and passengers be expected to do?
I imagine very few, if any, would do so. Whilst, being realistic, you will never have 100% of inspectors scoring 100% (given the complexity of ticketing), there are many things the industry could do to stop people having valid tickets rejected, being denied travel, wrongly being sold new tickets/excesses etc. But the industry sees these all as edge cases and isn't really interested in improving training to prevent it from happening.

A final thought: the number of possible fares (every possible variation, for every possible journey) probably is of the order of a billion...
Indeed. Which means that there's essentially a non-overlapping Venn diagram of fares systems that are entirely fair, entirely flexible and maximise revenue. The British system generally meets the lasts two conditions but consequently has many anomalies. Whereas many overseas systems are fair (e.g. by having mileage based pricing) but lack flexibility, as fares have to be specifically routed or tied to specific services.

Perfectly possible to buy a ticket without an itinerary online, and I suspect the word itinerary is not in any relevant legislation.
Yes, but what are you alluding to with this? The word itinerary isn't in any legislation - but where provided, an itinerary forms one of the core terms of the contract and therefore the validity of the ticket.
 

Mcr Warrior

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If you want to call it anything, the closest term is probably fare avoidance. It's perfectly legal and there are many accredited providers that will help you buy your tickets in this way. It's no different to putting your investments into an ISA rather than using a general investment account - you avoid paying certain taxes by doing so, but it's quite legal. I suppose the difference is that such tax breaks are intentional whereas the opportunities to save money by splitting are generally not intentional. But nothing particularly turns on that point.
I would suggest that fare minimisation is perhaps the more appropriate terminology for ticket splitting or similar money saving techniques, such as buying an advance ticket (where available) rather than an anytime single. So, similar to tax minimisation, in that it's almost always permitted, whereas tax avoidance, by contrast, inherently wouldn't be.
 

43096

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So, similar to tax minimisation, in that it's almost always permitted, whereas tax avoidance, by contrast, inherently wouldn't be.
Tax avoidance is the term usually given to legally reducing tax liabilities, as opposed to tax evasion, which is illegal bit.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Not so, tax avoidance is legal but tax evasion is not.
Whilst tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is more of a moot point, as it sometimes suggests aggressive avoidance of tax, perhaps using tax loopholes. Would therefore suggest that there's a difference between some tax avoidance schemes and simple tax planning.
 

SCDR_WMR

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I do sometimes wonder (based on threads on this forum) how well ticket inspectors (who are expected to learn and know what is valid and what not) would do if given a test of say 1000 dubiously valid tickets and circumstances - how many would score 100%? Should they be expected to? And if they fail, with what consequences? And how well should other staff and passengers be expected to do?
If those 1000 tickets were all from within areas they work in then I would expect the majority of experienced guards to score very highly. You do still see the odd unusual ticket and, depending on what line I'm working, will talk to the passenger about it whilst checking validity.

On my old lines I would certainly expect all but the newest of guard to score 90+% as the trainers are very good at including unusual tickets in the initial training. Whether that's indicative of the entire network I'm not sure, but the 2 depots I've worked at both have very high knowledge overall
 

Cantab26

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Might I point out that split ticketing for the purpose of saving money (i.e. buying tickets A-B and B-C, for less than a ticket A-B-C, for a journey A-B-C, which I assume why most people do so) is - prima facie - fare evasion: anybody who does so has not paid the correct fare for their jouney (and does not intend to). In this case the railway (collectively, including ticket agencies) are acting as an accessory in facilitating this.

This forum has people who do work in the area of railway ticketing and also has solicitors who are familiar with the relevant conditions, laws etc.

For the legal argument, I will tag @tspaul26 in to see if he would like to respond to your false claim.
As has already been mentioned in this thread, split ticketing is specifically envisaged in and allowed for by the Conditions of Travel.

As such, any suggestion that this constitutes ’fare evasion’ (or that ‘the railway’ are ‘accessories’) in any legal sense is fundamentally misguided.
 

Watershed

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As has already been mentioned in this thread, split ticketing is specifically envisaged in and allowed for by the Conditions of Travel.

As such, any suggestion that this constitutes ’fare evasion’ (or that ‘the railway’ are ‘accessories’) in any legal sense is fundamentally misguided.
And in any case, were the railway to be an "accessory" to any such offence, it would potentially open the door to an application to stay the case for abuse of process.
 

DerelictLine

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Might I point out that split ticketing for the purpose of saving money (i.e. buying tickets A-B and B-C, for less than a ticket A-B-C, for a journey A-B-C, which I assume why most people do so) is - prima facie - fare evasion: anybody who does so has not paid the correct fare for their jouney (and does not intend to). In this case the railway (collectively, including ticket agencies) are acting as an accessory in facilitating this.
Am I correct in assuming that split ticketing is only available where there are at least 2 different trains that go from A-C? For example, one train that stops at A, B and C (stopper) and another that only stops at A and C (fast).

Therefore, I agree that it is fare evasion, but only if you use them incorrectly, i.e. you have purchased a split ticket for the stopper train but you actually get on the fast train. Your ticket would not be valid on the fast train, and it would specify “valid only on trains that stop at B” or “valid only on (TOC) services”.

If a ticket inspector scans this ticket, it will flag up to them that the ticket is not valid on this train and then the holder of the ticket would either have to purchase a new ticket or receive a penalty fare, or may even have their details taken for the TOC to then write to them later on.

Of course, if the ticket inspector never scans the ticket, then the person will have gotten away with travelling using a cheaper (invalid) ticket which is fare evasion. However, your example is not fare evasion, and is actually encouraged by the Trainline, TrainPal, and others.
 

Haywain

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Am I correct in assuming that split ticketing is only available where there are at least 2 different trains that go from A-C? For example, one train that stops at A, B and C (stopper) and another that only stops at A and C (fast).
No, you are not right. It's far more complex than that. It may be that the total of fares for two stages of a journey are lower than the through fare, and only trains that stop at all (relevant) stations are provided.
 

AlterEgo

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Am I correct in assuming that split ticketing is only available where there are at least 2 different trains that go from A-C?
No.
For example, one train that stops at A, B and C (stopper) and another that only stops at A and C (fast).

Therefore, I agree that it is fare evasion, but only if you use them incorrectly, i.e. you have purchased a split ticket for the stopper train but you actually get on the fast train.
It depends on the combination of tickets. You do not always need to be on a train which calls at the split point for a split ticket to be valid.
Your ticket would not be valid on the fast train, and it would specify “valid only on trains that stop at B” or “valid only on (TOC) services”.
No it wouldn’t necessarily, even in cases where stopping at the split would be required.
 

londonteacher

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have a criminal record for a more serious offence than not having a valid ticket. That didn't stop me gaining SC clearance and working for the civil service in central government.
To be fair the prime minister broke the rules at the time along with many civil servants working in number 10 and many other time. Not quite sure the government care about who works for them.

Anyway, There should be no need to warn people about fare evasion. Quite simple really break the rules then face the consequences. People get away with too much in my opinion.
 

Ken H

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Whilst tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is more of a moot point, as it sometimes suggests aggressive avoidance of tax, perhaps using tax loopholes. Would therefore suggest that there's a difference between some tax avoidance schemes and simple tax planning.
Attacking tax avoidance is the action of a lazy government that cant write watertight tax legislation. The railway attacking fare avoidance, like split ticketing woukd be the same. If you want to stop split ticketing make it a condition the passenger scans his ticket at the station where he goes from one ticket to another.
 

John Luxton

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Are the warnings at stations and elsewhere sufficient? Is there a conspiracy on the part of TOCs to generate income from fines? Should, for instance, student loan forms warn applicants how easy it is to wreck your future prospects (or, at a minimum, cause yourself serious anxiety)? Everybody knows – don’t they – that shoplifting is theft so it might not be a good idea. On the other hand, underpaying for a journey accidentally/intentionally/fraudulently is seen as fair game. Why? Isn’t prevention better than cure?
Passed through many, many TfW stations last week and all had at least one "Don't Get Caught Red Handed" poster displayed if not more.
The same poster also appears on each of their PDF timetable leaflets can't really miss the information. TfW are certainly getting the message across.

Why people see defrauding the railway as any different to shop lifting is beyond me. Perhaps it is how people are brought up? Or previous life experiences? My parents and grandparents owned a couple of shops I was fully away of the consequences of shoplifting to the business' commercial viability. - Besides I was always told as a child stealing is wrong be a physical item or a service such as transport.

I must admit I do enjoy reading this section of the site just to get some insight into situations people walk into with eyes wide open!

BUT from time to time there are postings here where one can almost sense someone HAS made a genuine mistake. It must be very difficult for someone who has acted with good intent to find themselves on the wrong side of the railway bye-laws with no body on the railway believing them. Yes I know some try it on - but people in customer facing roles should be able to detect the genuine from the deliberate.

Earlier this year I took a trip to Manchester Piccadilly from Liverpool Lime Street. Walked into the booking office and asked for a day return. The next available train was a Northern Line service and off I went. On returning to Piccadilly I saw the next train back to Liverpool was about to arrive and I jumped on board. When I return home I invariably alight at Liverpool South Parkway as it avoids the city centre and I can easily get a bus.

When I pulled my ticket out and looked at it it was endorsed Northern Only and I had returned on an EMR train, fortunately there was no on train check, and no problems getting through the gateline.

BUT if I had been caught I wouldn't have had any defence - but the mistake was not down to me. Yes, perhaps I should have scrutinised the ticket on purchase, but I didn't. I expect the ticket office staff to know what they are doing if I ask for a day return to Manchester. The office was a bit busy and perhaps in normal circumstances they would have given me options - but the fact was they did not. Someone else put me in the wrong. - But who would have believed me?

A couple of weeks later I had to make another trip to Manchester and made a point of stating "By any operator".

Anyway chalked it down to experience and it won't happen again when buying a ticket from a ticket office.
 

spag23

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Like talldave, I can't understand etr221's logic. By the latter's reckoning, if a supermarket offers two different pricing models for the same total of differently bundled product, the customer is guilty of shoplifting when he goes for the better value option?
Saving money by not paying the maximum offered price is not a crime, "prime facie" or otherwise.
In my opinion etr221 is wrong to declare the maximum fare as the only "correct" one.
 

Watershed

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Am I correct in assuming that split ticketing is only available where there are at least 2 different trains that go from A-C? For example, one train that stops at A, B and C (stopper) and another that only stops at A and C (fast)
That is one scenario, but there are many others where it can be cheaper. Sometimes it can be as simple as the availability of Advances varying between different sections of a journey - if you buy one Advance, you pay the cost of the dearest tier for all of your journey. By splitting, you can take advantage of cheaper tiers of Advance that might be available for part of the journey.

Therefore, I agree that it is fare evasion, but only if you use them incorrectly, i.e. you have purchased a split ticket for the stopper train but you actually get on the fast train. Your ticket would not be valid on the fast train, and it would specify “valid only on trains that stop at B” or “valid only on (TOC) services”.
Travelling through your split point non-stop is sometimes permissible - it depends on the kinds of tickets you hold. Doing so where not permitted could be argued as fare evasion, but it will be highly situation dependent.

If a ticket inspector scans this ticket, it will flag up to them that the ticket is not valid on this train and then the holder of the ticket would either have to purchase a new ticket or receive a penalty fare, or may even have their details taken for the TOC to then write to them later on.
Not necessarily. I don't think ticket scanning systems are smart enough to work out whether a particular ticket is valid route-wise for the train in question - that is left up to the member of staff. Generally the scan there to check that the ticket is in date and flag any Railcard discount applied, as well as ensuring that a ticket can't be refunded (or at least, not unless there are exceptional circumstances).

Passed through many, many TfW stations last week and all had at least one "Don't Get Caught Red Handed" poster displayed if not more.
The same poster also appears on each of their PDF timetable leaflets can't really miss the information. TfW are certainly getting the message across.
Indeed and this is exactly the kind of poster that I think should be clearly on display at the entrance to every station where operators use private prosecutions. Of course it needs to be correctly worded - ISTR that ATW or TfW had a poster that claimed you must actively seek out the guard if you couldn't buy a ticket before boarding, which isn't true.

Why people see defrauding the railway as any different to shop lifting is beyond me. Perhaps it is how people are brought up? Or previous life experiences? My parents and grandparents owned a couple of shops I was fully away of the consequences of shoplifting to the business' commercial viability. - Besides I was always told as a child stealing is wrong be a physical item or a service such as transport.
I suppose there are a few factors.

Firstly, with a shop, it's entirely clear where and how you should pay - at the checkout, before you leave the shop. There's no ambiguity about it. Contrast that with the railway - sometimes it is officially permitted to board without a ticket, other times it's not permitted but is de facto encouraged by members of staff selling tickets onboard/at the destination without giving any warning, and then occasionally there are crackdowns. It's a very inconsistent policy and message to get across. Imagine if there were different types of shops and in some, you were deemed as shoplifting for taking an item off the shelf without having paid a deposit when entering the store. It would cause no end of confusion.

Secondly, when you steal goods from a shop, you are depriving them of a physical piece of property, which means they cannot sell that to another customer. It's a quite tangible loss. Whereas on the railway - the train would run whether or not you board it, let alone buy a ticket. And unless there is exceptional overcrowding, you aren't depriving the railway of the ability to sell their services to anyone else. So many see it as a victimless crime. Of course there is still the financial loss, but it is intangible.

BUT from time to time there are postings here where one can almost sense someone HAS made a genuine mistake. It must be very difficult for someone who has acted with good intent to find themselves on the wrong side of the railway bye-laws with no body on the railway believing them. Yes I know some try it on - but people in customer facing roles should be able to detect the genuine from the deliberate.
Your example below perfectly illustrates how people can make a genuine mistake. Ultimately it's very difficult, if not impossible, to tell those who have made a genuine mistake from those who are deliberate. The railway's response to this is effectively to consider everyone as a fare evader until proven otherwise - hence the absolute Byelaw 18 offence. Whilst that is arguably applied with discretion, the mere fact it's on the books is highly problematic in my view.
 
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Graham H

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Passed through many, many TfW stations last week and all had at least one "Don't Get Caught Red Handed" poster displayed if not more.
The same poster also appears on each of their PDF timetable leaflets can't really miss the information. TfW are certainly getting the message across.

Why people see defrauding the railway as any different to shop lifting is beyond me. Perhaps it is how people are brought up? Or previous life experiences? My parents and grandparents owned a couple of shops I was fully away of the consequences of shoplifting to the business' commercial viability. - Besides I was always told as a child stealing is wrong be a physical item or a service such as transport.

I must admit I do enjoy reading this section of the site just to get some insight into situations people walk into with eyes wide open!

BUT from time to time there are postings here where one can almost sense someone HAS made a genuine mistake. It must be very difficult for someone who has acted with good intent to find themselves on the wrong side of the railway bye-laws with no body on the railway believing them. Yes I know some try it on - but people in customer facing roles should be able to detect the genuine from the deliberate.

Earlier this year I took a trip to Manchester Piccadilly from Liverpool Lime Street. Walked into the booking office and asked for a day return. The next available train was a Northern Line service and off I went. On returning to Piccadilly I saw the next train back to Liverpool was about to arrive and I jumped on board. When I return home I invariably alight at Liverpool South Parkway as it avoids the city centre and I can easily get a bus.

When I pulled my ticket out and looked at it it was endorsed Northern Only and I had returned on an EMR train, fortunately there was no on train check, and no problems getting through the gateline.

BUT if I had been caught I wouldn't have had any defence - but the mistake was not down to me. Yes, perhaps I should have scrutinised the ticket on purchase, but I didn't. I expect the ticket office staff to know what they are doing if I ask for a day return to Manchester. The office was a bit busy and perhaps in normal circumstances they would have given me options - but the fact was they did not. Someone else put me in the wrong. - But who would have believed me?

A couple of weeks later I had to make another trip to Manchester and made a point of stating "By any operator".

Anyway chalked it down to experience and it won't happen again when buying a ticket from a ticket office.
Yes I had a few near misses with tickets. Travelling to Parkstone I paid my fare and it wasnt until I went to claim the expenses that I realised I had been given a ticket to Pokesdown. Both stations are on the same line and only a few miles apart either side of Bournemouth so I didnt notice but I guess I could have been accused of over travelling. Yes I should have looked I suppose before anyone tells me that but the fare was about what I expected and the guard who checked didnt comment but of course that was before we got to Pokedown so was valid at the time. On another occasion the ticket office at Gatwick misheard me and instead of Emsworth he printed a ticket for Edinburgh. In this case the massive price differential was the clue !
My son also had a trip partly using the Virgin Euston to Birmingham trains and in those days (10 or so years ago) tickets were posted with an itinerary. The itinerary was correct but the ticket for the train was for the one 20 mins later and would have jeopardised his connection, fortunately Virgin were a bit better back then and the proof of the itinerary on virgin headed paper overrode the ticket, not that the train was by any means full as it was a midday timing. Reservation was same coach, same seat on both ticket and itinerary, just a different train !
I have no sympathy for the serial dodgers and excuses like I am a student or I hadnt got much money dont wash with the TOC anyway but I do agree that a minority of genuine errors either by the train company or the individual do seem to get put in the same basket and lead to much anxiety.

However, having read many of these posts I do want to say how good it is for those in the know to provide excellent impartial advice to those caught. Whether its a deliberate or accidental mistake the help is here when needed to try and sort out the mess an OP has got into. Hopefully genuine errors are resolved and those deliberate dodgers receive a fair and just settlement and hopefully wont do it again.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Might I point out that split ticketing for the purpose of saving money (i.e. buying tickets A-B and B-C, for less than a ticket A-B-C, for a journey A-B-C, which I assume why most people do so) is - prima facie - fare evasion:

No it's not, it's fare avoidance - like tax avoidance* (rather than evasion) it is totally legal. Not only that but there is legal precedent preventing the railway from banning it.

In Ireland, where there is no such precedent, it is banned and would be considered evasion.

In the UK it would only be evasion if you travelled on a train for which the tickets were not valid, e.g. a split where the train did not stop and one of the exceptions was not invoked.

* Tax avoidance is deliberately arranging one's affairs so as to pay less tax. It can be argued to be immoral, but it's totally legal. An example is if you own a company paying yourself only the minimum wage and all other earnings as dividends.
 

Ken H

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No it's not, it's fare avoidance - like tax avoidance* (rather than evasion) it is totally legal. Not only that but there is legal precedent preventing the railway from banning it.

In Ireland, where there is no such precedent, it is banned and would be considered evasion.

In the UK it would only be evasion if you travelled on a train for which the tickets were not valid, e.g. a split where the train did not stop and one of the exceptions was not invoked.

* Tax avoidance is deliberately arranging one's affairs so as to pay less tax. It can be argued to be immoral, but it's totally legal. An example is if you own a company paying yourself only the minimum wage and all other earnings as dividends.
Quite difficult now with IR35.
 

dcbwhaley

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It’s not really the train companies’ fault if they aren’t warning people that stealing from them and defrauding them is a crime.

But when you enter into a contract with the ToC the terms and conditions of that contract are not made clear in that the contract document - the ticket - does not specify those T&Cs. This is obvious from the number of "Can I do this with this ticket" queries on this forum.
The ToC seem to be in the unique position of been able to punish people for breaking a contract the terms of which are very difficult to ascertain.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

* Tax avoidance is deliberately arranging one's affairs so as to pay less tax. It can be argued to be immoral, but it's totally legal. An example is if you own a company paying yourself only the minimum wage and all other earnings as dividends.
Even claiming your annual tax exemption is technically tax avoidance and is something almost every one does.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why people see defrauding the railway as any different to shop lifting is beyond me.

I think that the attitude is that the train was running anyway and that if I travel without a ticket it doesn't add to the ToCs costs.
Rather like software piracy where the pirated company does not loose anything physical so the "intent to permanently deprive" section of the theft act is not in action.
 
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greyman42

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As someone mentioned earlier, this is something which is frequently mentioned on here to an extent it arguably shouldn't be, and results in numerous threads from young and understandably naive and inexperienced people terrified by what they've read on here before they post.

There are no careers which are barred to someone who has a criminal conviction, yet less a civil conviction, caution, or

People come for advice, not sanctimonious judgment.

I have a criminal record for a more serious offence than not having a valid ticket. That didn't stop me gaining SC clearance and working for the civil service in central government.

Please people, stop unnecessarily worrying those who come for the wealth of advice available on here.
I agree. You get people with a "holier than thou" attitude who claim to never break the law.
 

AlterEgo

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But when you enter into a contract with the ToC the terms and conditions of that contract are not made clear in that the contract document - the ticket - does not specify those T&Cs. This is obvious from the number of "Can I do this with this ticket" queries on this forum.
The ToC seem to be in the unique position of been able to punish people for breaking a contract the terms of which are very difficult to ascertain.
No, this discussion is about fare dodging, the deliberate act of defrauding the company from the fare due. It’s not about “you have the wrong ticket by accident”.
 

1955LR

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I nearly got caught out by such terms as " Off Peak" tickets etc.. I purchased an Off peak return , out on day one , return the following day at about 15:00 hrs . Due to a change in circumstances I needed to travel back at more like 09:00 . I did a quick online check on when off peak started by checking trains that showed up with off peak fares. . It turned out the day return off peak times were more generous than the period times, only found out when my ticket rejected at the gate . I was able to excess it for all of 69 pence , Before that and until I started viewing this forum I didn't realize it was the particular ticket not the train that determined the validity of off peak times, I assumed it just depended on the time of day.
 
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