Eight new cities to mark Platinum Jubilee

[Runningaround]

What criteria exactly?

Did you read what they were or have you decided its only your points that should be reached?
Many have been made here. MK was and is continuing to be built as a new city. It's significant in it's region and growing. I guess more people are relocating to MK than Bradford to live and work and it's growing are night life seekers, event attendees and shoppers heading for Bradford or going to Leeds? If brand new cities are going to be built for modern day transport and living then don't build Bradford build MK.

 

[Bantamzen]

Did you read what they were or have you decided its only your points that should be reached?
Many have been made here. MK was and is continuing to be built as a new city. It's significant in it's region and growing. I guess more people are relocating to MK than Bradford to live and work and it's growing are night life seekers, event attendees and shoppers heading for Bradford or going to Leeds? If brand new cities are going to be built for modern day transport and living then don't build Bradford build MK.

I did indeed read it, and read little that actually made Milton Keynes really stand out from many other towns. I'd wager there could be dozens that could offer up as much history as that area in a heartbeat. These Isles are literally stuffed full of history, the length and breadth of them (I visited some Neolithic & Bronze Age sites on the edges of the city so lamented on this thread just today). So I was curious as to what criteria the people actually making the decision had, I couldn't give a stuff about why the locals think it should be a city (although I did out of curiosity this lunchtime in the pub read a few other forums threads, and opinion of the place among locals was very divided), I wanted to understand why it was chosen.

I am now completely fascinated as to why Milton Keynes is such an emotive subject, it seems even the slightest contempt towards it has the locals sharpening the pitchforks and lighting the torches.

 

[Runningaround]

I did indeed read it, and read little that actually made Milton Keynes really stand out from many other towns. I'd wager there could be dozens that could offer up as much history as that area in a heartbeat. These Isles are literally stuffed full of history, the length and breadth of them (I visited some Neolithic & Bronze Age sites on the edges of the city so lamented on this thread just today). So I was curious as to what criteria the people actually making the decision had, I couldn't give a stuff about why the locals think it should be a city (although I did out of curiosity this lunchtime in the pub read a few other forums threads, and opinion of the place among locals was very divided), I wanted to understand why it was chosen.

I am now completely fascinated as to why Milton Keynes is such an emotive subject, it seems even the slightest contempt towards it has the locals sharpening the pitchforks and lighting the torches.

Well quite frankly nobody gives a two hoots what you do that's why MK is a new city.

Who reads forums while in the pub? It must have been a very boring place were you in Bradford? If you'd gone into a proper city like Leeds where people head to on a Saturday you might have had someone to talk to and could have asked them and you never know the conversation might have turned into something riveting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bet you'd get the last word in though before the rest of the customers made a sharp exit.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Dumferline and Douglas made cities, while Reading remains a town Simply laughable.

 

[Runningaround]

Dumferline and Douglas made cities, while Reading remains a town Simply laughable.

Did Reading apply in the Scottish and Isle of Man sections?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Did Reading apply in the Scottish and Isle of Man sections?

I didn't know there had to be one from each "section," personally I believe they should have chosen the cities based on what deserved to be a city rather than choosing one just to ensure each nation had a town that received an upgrade.

It was news to me that Colchester was a town - I know there's a station called Colchester Town, but I assumed that was a colloquial reference - in plenty of cities the centre is described as "town". That certainly deserves to be a city, after all, I believe it (and Winchester) was a former capital city of England, long ago.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I didn't know there had to be one from each "section," personally I believe they should have chosen the cities based on what deserved to be a city rather than choosing one just to ensure each nation had a town that received an upgrade.

It was news to me that Colchester was a town - I know there's a station called Colchester Town, but I assumed that was a colloquial reference - in plenty of cities the centre is described as "town". That certainly deserves to be a city, after all, I believe it (and Winchester) was a former capital city of England, long ago.

What does "deserve to be a city" mean though? Most countries don't have a legal distinction between what's a town and what's a city- just that cities tend to be bigger and more important with more stuff going on there.

I grew up in Huddersfield, and it was often said that Huddersfield was the biggest town in the country. It isn't of course, and probably never was, but I honestly couldn't give two hoots whether it has some arbitrary status bestowed upon it. I'd be a bit annoyed if the council wasted money to apply for city status while bus services and social care are being decimated by cuts. Then there's the football club who will always be "Town" to me regardless of what the place itself is called in the future.

I can see the case for Reading being given the status, but if the council didn't apply then they won't get it. In any case the status is effectively meaningless outside of a sense of civic pride. I don't see crowds of people wanting to host business conventions in Ripon or Wells for example.

 

[cactustwirly]

What does "deserve to be a city" mean though? Most countries don't have a legal distinction between what's a town and what's a city- just that cities tend to be bigger and more important with more stuff going on there.

I grew up in Huddersfield, and it was often said that Huddersfield was the biggest town in the country. It isn't of course, and probably never was, but I honestly couldn't give two hoots whether it has some arbitrary status bestowed upon it. I'd be a bit annoyed if the council wasted money to apply for city status while bus services and social care are being decimated by cuts. Then there's the football club who will always be "Town" to me regardless of what the place itself is called in the future.

I can see the case for Reading being given the status, but if the council didn't apply then they won't get it. In any case the status is effectively meaningless outside of a sense of civic pride. I don't see crowds of people wanting to host business conventions in Ripon or Wells for example.

Reading applied and lost out to Colchester and Doncaster

 

[Bantamzen]

Well quite frankly nobody gives a two hoots what you do that's why MK is a new city.

Who reads forums while in the pub? It must have been a very boring place were you in Bradford? If you'd gone into a proper city like Leeds where people head to on a Saturday you might have had someone to talk to and could have asked them and you never know the conversation might have turned into something riveting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bet you'd get the last word in though before the rest of the customers made a sharp exit.

Erm, yeah, ok, thanks for the feedback, I guess....??

But in answer to your question as to who reads forums whilst in a pub, probably lots of people, even in Leeds, or Milton Keynes for that matter. In fact I would happily bet that many posts right here on these forums are written in pubs whilst members enjoy a pint. You do know that it is not compulsory to talk to random strangers in a pub, especially if you had just been for a nice walk across Ilkley Moor (which is why I wasn't in Leeds) whilst waiting for lunch?

 

[D821]

Milton Keynes sounds like a very angry place.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I am now completely fascinated as to why Milton Keynes is such an emotive subject, it seems even the slightest contempt towards it has the locals sharpening the pitchforks and lighting the torches.

I'll come clean. As a football fan, like your good self and DarloRich and 61653 HTAFC, my dislike of MK is based on their "theft" of Wimbledon FC. In 1937, a London syndicate offered to buy up Bradford and relocate the club to London. They were politely told to "go forth and multiply" (or words to that effect).

Wimbledon, of course, are no angels. They would never have been elected to D4 in 1976 if the voting clubs had known that they would decamp to Selhurst Park 27 years later and become Palace's warm up act.

There are two losers in the Wimbledon/MK shenanigans. Workington who were voted out of the league - and Kingstonian who lost the right to joint usage of their traditional ground when Wimbledon sold it to Chelsea for the exclusive use of their dear ladies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll come clean. As a football fan, like your good self and DarloRich and 61653 HTAFC, my dislike of MK is based on their "theft" of Wimbledon FC.

So you dislike a whole city (it is now, so ner ) including many thousands of people who don't care about football in the slightest because a private businessman bought a football team? Yeah, that makes sense.

Is that also the source of @Bantamzen's ire given that their name is based on that of a football team (something I didn't realise until this thread)?

 

[DelayRepay]

So you dislike a whole city (it is now, so ner ) including many thousands of people who don't care about football in the slightest because a private businessman bought a football team? Yeah, that makes sense.

Here's a funny thing - I loads of people in MK but nobody who supports MK Dons. I know a few people who'll go to see games occasionally, I've even been myself, but we all support other clubs elsewhere in the country.

I'll probably get shot for saying this, but weren't Wimbledon practically bankrupt anyway? Had it been a viable football club then they would not have been available for purchase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here's a funny thing - I loads of people in MK but nobody who supports MK Dons. I know a few people who'll go to see games occasionally, I've even been myself, but we all support other clubs elsewhere in the country.

Typically the crowd is very "family" - i.e. people go there for a family day out rather than being long-term committed football supporters. That will filter through in time, of course.

I'll probably get shot for saying this, but weren't Wimbledon practically bankrupt anyway? Had it been a viable football club then they would not have been available for purchase.

Correct. Though there are two arguments against, firstly that Winkelman (or whoever) should have supported them "in place", secondly (more locally) that he should have invested in building up Milton Keynes City FC (the former Bletchley Town) in favour of purchasing and moving an existing team.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So you dislike a whole city (it is now, so ner ) including many thousands of people who don't care about football in the slightest because a private businessman bought a football team? Yeah, that makes sense.

Is that also the source of @Bantamzen's ire given that their name is based on that of a football team (something I didn't realise until this thread)?

Nothing against the place... and as much as I dislike the way the football thing happened, I don't lose sleep over it. Especially given how AFC Wimbledon shafted Kingstonian afterwards.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I'm just being honest Bletchleyite. I have similar feelings about Leeds - football rivalry clouds your view of a place.

I also used to get miffed when I couldn't get a seat in the very small 1st class section on Euston - Chester Voyager trains because of the numbers just travelling to MKC. They wouldn't even serve you with whatever goodies we used to get until we had left MKC. These days, of course, first class travel is a distant memory.

But I don't harbour any grudges against the good citizens of MK, or anywhere else for that matter. In fact, one of the nicest wedding weekends I have ever been to was in one of the MK villages. I forget which one it was but it was all very pleasant.

 

[Jimini]

Especially given how AFC Wimbledon shafted Kingstonian afterwards.

^^ This. ^^

 

[Bantamzen]

So you dislike a whole city (it is now, so ner ) including many thousands of people who don't care about football in the slightest because a private businessman bought a football team? Yeah, that makes sense.

Is that also the source of @Bantamzen's ire given that their name is based on that of a football team (something I didn't realise until this thread)?

Not so much ire as curiosity as to why a 1960s town built on a grid system would get this status over a much older town with as much, if not more of a story. If there was ire in this thread it was much more directed at my home city, not that people here care much about that, we are perfectly used to be dirided by folk up and down the country. But it is ironic that the response to perceived stereotyping was more still. That perhaps speaks volumes. Other than that I have no real thoughts about the people of the town, and am really not all that interested in its planning.

I do however also confess that I can't stand the MkFranchise football team that exists there, with more effort the original team could and should have stayed close to its roots, closer to its original fans. Milton Keynes' football should have come from the town through effort and hard work, not just transplanting a failing football team some 70 odd miles from where it belongs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I do however also confess that I can't stand the MkFranchise football team that exists there, with more effort the original team could and should have stayed close to its roots, closer to its original fans. Milton Keynes' football should have come from the town through effort and hard work, not just transplanting a failing football team some 70 odd miles from where it belongs.

That's what bugs me about it. As a comparison, Wigan Athletic climbed from the depths of non-league to the top-flight, and did so without highjacking an existing club that had fallen on hard times. The original Wimbledon also did this, and it was really only a dispute with Merton Council that led to them being homeless. For some reason they seemed to attract nefarious investors hoping to relocate them to places without EPL or EFL teams... anyone else remember the "Dublin Dons" proposal?

Milton Keynes should have built a team from the ground up, not stolen one. That move indirectly led to Kingstonian slipping down the non-league pyramid more than AFC Wimbledon's oversights did. Without the first crime, the second couldn't have happened.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's what bugs me about it. As a comparison, Wigan Athletic climbed from the depths of non-league to the top-flight, and did so without highjacking an existing club that had fallen on hard times. The original Wimbledon also did this, and it was really only a dispute with Merton Council that led to them being homeless. For some reason they seemed to attract nefarious investors hoping to relocate them to places without EPL or EFL teams... anyone else remember the "Dublin Dons" proposal?

Milton Keynes should have built a team from the ground up, not stolen one. That move indirectly led to Kingstonian slipping down the non-league pyramid more than AFC Wimbledon's oversights did. Without the first crime, the second couldn't have happened.

The idea that the *city* stole a club rather than simply support its local team once it was on its doorstep is quite a stretch.

Anyway, I live a few hundred yards from Dial Square in Woolwich so I’m familiar with the idea of transplanting football teams. It’s a very tedious discussion to have other than to say “no, probably the way MK Dons came into being shouldn’t be replicated again”.

 

[najaB]

The idea that the *city* stole a club rather than simply support its local team once it was on its doorstep is quite a stretch.

It's quite interesting contrasting UK attitudes towards football clubs to the relationship between US sports teams and their host cities. It is very common for teams to up sticks and move to a new city (even across the country) if they're offered sufficient financial incentive (for example, have you ever heard of the Brooklyn Dodgers?)

 

[birchesgreen]

It's quite interesting contrasting UK attitudes towards football clubs to the relationship between US sports teams and their host cities. It is very common for teams to up sticks and move to a new city (even across the country) if they're offered sufficient financial incentive (for example, have you ever heard of the Brooklyn Dodgers?)

Yeah i find that aspect of US sport (or sports should i say) bizarre. Have to respect the diehard fans who still go to "home" games even if it sometimes means literally crossing the entire country in some cases. There was a documentary about them some years ago.

 

[Busaholic]

The idea that the *city* stole a club rather than simply support its local team once it was on its doorstep is quite a stretch.

Anyway, I live a few hundred yards from Dial Square in Woolwich so I’m familiar with the idea of transplanting football teams. It’s a very tedious discussion to have other than to say “no, probably the way MK Dons came into being shouldn’t be replicated again”.

Growing up in the Borough of Woolwich and going to the Valley to see (then) First Division Charlton Athletic I was very aware of the antipathy still felt towards Arsenal in that area into the second half of the 20th Century. On the other hand, antipathy towards West Ham United was genuine and heartfelt (this pre-1966 by the way.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's quite interesting contrasting UK attitudes towards football clubs to the relationship between US sports teams and their host cities. It is very common for teams to up sticks and move to a new city (even across the country) if they're offered sufficient financial incentive (for example, have you ever heard of the Brooklyn Dodgers?)

"Interesting" is one way of putting it... the borderline-corrupt practices involved with cities trying to build stadiums and arenas before they have a team to play in them is certainly "interesting" from a white-collar crime point of view.

 

[najaB]

"Interesting" is one way of putting it... the borderline-corrupt practices involved with cities trying to build stadiums and arenas before they have a team to play in them is certainly "interesting" from a white-collar crime point of view.

Oh, I do know that. But I was more contrasting the attitudes of the fans.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Yeah we are battered, bruised and perhaps overly cynical. But the city still has a lot to offer, scratch the rough surface and you find a lot of history, culture, and really, really decent people. And with the moors and Aire Valley just a stone's throw away, we have some amazing scenery to enjoy, as well as an emerging craft pub scene, some of the UKs finest curries, and hopefully soon a return to a vibrant live music scene once the Odeon reopens. Bradford is alright.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Bradford's pub scene Bantamzen. To commemorate my last day in Bradford in 1976, before emigrating to Hertfordshire as my beloved football team had gone bust, me and a few mates did the Bowling Back Lane crawl having a pint in 10 real ale hostelries from Swaine Green down to the Bedford. The Swaine Green is the only one left and that's gone keg.

While there may be a few new micropubs on North Parade, one replacing the Sooty shop, there are almost no pubs at all left between the ring road and the city centre. The Fighting Cock is the only decent one left that I can think of. Large parts of inner city Bradford are now a complete beer desert. Pub-wise, Halifax now puts Bradford to shame.

But you're right about the curries - and the chip chops in Bradford's outer suburbs are also excellent, cooking haddock and chips the way they should be cooked - in beef dripping. None of that tasteless vegetable oil that they use down south.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not sure I agree with you about Bradford's pub scene Bantamzen. To commemorate my last day in Bradford in 1976, before emigrating to Hertfordshire as my beloved football team had gone bust, me and a few mates did the Bowling Back Lane crawl having a pint in 10 real ale hostelries from Swaine Green down to the Bedford. The Swaine Green is the only one left and that's gone keg.

While there may be a few new micropubs on North Parade, one replacing the Sooty shop, there are almost no pubs at all left between the ring road and the city centre. The Fighting Cock is the only decent one left that I can think of. Large parts of inner city Bradford are now a complete beer desert. Pub-wise, Halifax now puts Bradford to shame.

For sure the pub scene isn't what it used to be, I remember the 80s & 90s when people would come from all over Yorkshire & beyond for a night out around the music & alternate scene here. But those pubs on North Parade are starting to drive the scene forward again slowly but surely, certain on City match days the area is buzzing and as a result there is more an more spillback into the rest of the centre. Remember it all started with just a couple of them taking a long punt on the road years ago, so if it can work there it can work elsewhere too.

I'm not much of a real ale expert, so I can't really comment on the quality of ales across the centre but the trade is seeing a comeback. The long protracted delay in building the Broadway & the ten years of the infamous hole killed the city centre stone dead. But the Broadway is getting busy again now, and once John Street Market is relocated onto Darley Street, the centre will be much more compacted again & hopefully help footfall outside the Broadway. And once the Odeon reopens as Bradford Live hopefully events this will further feed this. Live music is still one of the best draws to get punters in to local pubs, and if there is more footfall then hopefully more prospective pub owners will look at options in & around. I know some local promoters and owners in the area, and they seem optimistic that there is moment growing, but like with a lot of things here it will take time, sweat & tears to get there.

But you're right about the curries - and the chip chops in Bradford's outer suburbs are also excellent, cooking haddock and chips the way they should be cooked - in beef dripping. None of that tasteless vegetable oil that they use down south.

Curry wise we have some of the best Asian chefs in the country, yeah Birmingham you heard me! And don't get me started on vegetable oil in chippies, almost as bad as them not selling curry sauce!

 

[TheBigD]

...And don't get me started on vegetable oil in chippies, almost as bad as them not selling curry sauce!

There can't be many chippies left that still cook with tallow. Certainly not any in my part of the world (south Lincolnshire)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There can't be many chippies left that still cook with tallow. Certainly not any in my part of the world (south Lincolnshire)

You get quite a number in Yorkshire but very few elsewhere.

 

[DarloRich]

Doncaster is a strange one as it is really no different to any other run down northern town but I guess having a newly minted Tory MP helps!

Milton Keynes sounds like a very angry place.

i am not sure how you make that out! many people get frustrated with the narrow minded views expressed in this thread and in real life about MK. it is doubly frustrating when people parrot the same old nonsense based on, if we are lucky, one visit in 1986.