Eight new cities to mark Platinum Jubilee

[AlterEgo]

Call my old fashioned if you will, but cities to me should be interesting places to see.

If Britain's only unique, completely planned, city-size settlement built to interweave villages around since before people were writing things down isn't interesting to you then I don't think there is much anyone can do to convince you.

Your view isn't old fashioned, it is merely arbitrary. An old fashioned view would be demanding it achieve city status through a tried and tested historical method, like, ahem, petitioning the monarch (like Manchester and others did) based on a number of nebulous factors.

Surely at the very least a city is somewhere of interest to non-locals, somewhere you might go for a day trip or even a stay-over?

What, like Bangor and Newry and St Asaph and Wells and Newport and Preston? City status isn't decided on whether you'd like to go and visit or if you'd be entertained by going there. And, as we have already ascertained, there is no actual material benefit to the status. However the opportunity to watch people get irritated at the very largest settlement by a considerable distance on the list to be granted the status at the ignorance of all the others has been great. MK does live rent free in many people's heads, it seems.

 

[birchesgreen]

A lot of the arguments made against MK for city status could have been made for Birmingham in the past (and still pretty valid to be honest).

 

[DelayRepay]

So it's a nice place to live, and handy for a commute into the big smoke. But save a few remote villages and lots of farmland until the urban sprawl was built, not much in the way of history or culture.

I've been thinking about this; MK does have history, just not as old as other cities. Maybe one day in the future people will visit MK to see a great example of post war new city development, in the same way we visit old castles etc.

Look I'm sure Milton Keynes is a lovely, happy place. But I just don't see it as somewhere one would call a city, and certainly not a place you would go out of your way to visit. Surely at the very least a city is somewhere of interest to non-locals, somewhere you might go for a day trip or even a stay-over? Sure its got a big former clay pit bowl used for gigs, and an over-sized stadium for it's MkFranchise football team, but these are not really places of interest. Call my old fashioned if you will, but cities to me should be interesting places to see.

I will admit that when my mum comes to visit, we struggle to find places to go for a nice day out in MK. We've done Bletchley Park to death, so we tend to go elsewhere. But there are plenty of interesting places within easy reach of MK.

And, to be fair, MK has always styled its self as 'The New City' so anyone coming looking for history is going to be disappointed.

I'll be honest, as someone who lives here I still struggle to think of MK as a City in the same way as other Cities. But maybe the fact it's so different is what lead to it being selected?

I guess one day even the great ancient cities of this land were but fields. No different to MK, it's just we're not as far along our journey yet!

 

[Bantamzen]

If Britain's only unique, completely planned, city-size settlement built to interweave villages around since before people were writing things down isn't interesting to you then I don't think there is much anyone can do to convince you.

I think I can safely say that visiting completely planned, city-size settlements built to interweave villages will not be on most people's bucket lists.

Your view isn't old fashioned, it is merely arbitrary. An old fashioned view would be demanding it achieve city status through a tried and tested historical method, like, ahem, petitioning the monarch (like Manchester and others did) based on a number of nebulous factors.

What, like Bangor and Newry and St Asaph and Wells and Newport and Preston? City status isn't decided on whether you'd like to go and visit or if you'd be entertained by going there. And, as we have already ascertained, there is no actual material benefit to the status. However the opportunity to watch people get irritated at the very largest settlement by a considerable distance on the list to be granted the status at the ignorance of all the others has been great. MK does live rent free in many people's heads, it seems.

I'd agree that quite a few of the new cities aren't really what I'd consider cities, the definition of a city in the UK has been watered down over the years & I guess any medium sized urban area could lay claim to the title if offered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it's a nice place to live, and handy for a commute into the big smoke. But save a few remote villages and lots of farmland until the urban sprawl was built, not much in the way of history or culture.

Plenty of history as has already been outlined. Culture, well, at least it has a theatre and an almost unique outdoor concert venue (which needs more making of it)?

Look I'm sure Milton Keynes is a lovely, happy place. But I just don't see it as somewhere one would call a city, and certainly not a place you would go out of your way to visit

I think you may be overstating Bradford (which is by all accounts rather a dump, albeit one with some fancy buildings, and not somewhere most people would even think of planning a trip to for historical* or cultural reasons unless very local) and Leeds (which isn't a dump but I do find it rather boring, in particular the centre is all incredibly samey and the suburbs are just boring sprawl, admittedly very like Birmingham in this regard).

Yes, you support the local football team, but people will go to any rathole for football. Ever played Luton Town?

FWIW, I think the main thing we lack is the dynamism you get from a large collection of young people, which means we need to stop faffing about and found a proper new University (i.e. a new-ex-Poly) to bring them here. The OU is a great institution but doesn't actually bring anyone to MK other than to hired hotel conference rooms for exams! This would also bring more business.

* Yes, OK, Saltaire, but I wouldn't really consider that in Bradford. And we can counter that with Bletchley Park.

 

[DarloRich]

Look I'm sure Milton Keynes is a lovely, happy place. But I just don't see it as somewhere one would call a city, and certainly not a place you would go out of your way to visit.

You seem to have a very closed mind on this. Lets turn that around: Why is Bradford a city? It is a total dump

So it's a nice place to live, and handy for a commute into the big smoke. But save a few remote villages and lots of farmland until the urban sprawl was built, not much in the way of history or culture.

That isn't true but you aren't interested.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think you may be overstating Bradford (which is by all accounts rather a dump, albeit one with some fancy buildings, and not somewhere most people would even think of planning a trip to for historical* or cultural reasons unless very local) and Leeds (which isn't a dump but I do find it rather boring, in particular the centre is all incredibly samey and the suburbs are just boring sprawl, admittedly very like Birmingham in this regard).

I don't actually recall overstating Bradford at all? But regardless of your opinion of it the place has more to offer than you might think. I actually like the place.

Yes, you support the local football team, but people will go to any rathole for football. Ever played Luton Town?

Yep been there a few times over the years.

* Yes, OK, Saltaire, but I wouldn't really consider that in Bradford. And we can counter that with Bletchley Park.

I'm not getting into the "we don't think those parts of Bradford are actually Bradford" argument, way off topic. But I'll also chuck in Howarth & Ilkley as placed often visited too.

You seem to have a very closed mind on this. Lets turn that around: Why is Bradford a city? It is a total dump

That isn't true but you aren't interested.

I really don't know why you are getting annoyed about this, I was just curious as to how the decision was made in the first instance.

 

[DarloRich]

I really don't know why you are getting annoyed about this, I was just curious as to how the decision was made in the first instance.

I am not annoyed - more frustrated at your unwillingness to consider a different position to your own. You and others have a very fixed view about Milton Keynes and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change it.

I am sure I held similar views before I moved here but the truth, that you seem to want to ignore, is different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't actually recall overstating Bradford at all? But regardless of your opinion of it the place has more to offer than you might think. I actually like the place.

And I quite like MK to be fair. It took a while to grow on me because it's so different, but I do now. I won't stay here forever, that said, but that's got more to do with where family etc live.

I'm not getting into the "we don't think those parts of Bradford are actually Bradford" argument, way off topic. But I'll also chuck in Howarth & Ilkley as placed often visited too.

Haworth (I assume you've spelt it wrong rather than it being a different place) and Ilkley are as "in Bradford" as Ormskirk is "in Liverpool" or Watford is "in London", or indeed Bradford is "in Leeds". I think that's stretching it. As it happens I have stayed in Bradford once, but that was because it was the cheapest Premier Inn in the area, which says a fair bit on its own

 

[Bantamzen]

Haworth (I assume you've spelt it wrong rather than it being a different place) and Ilkley are as "in Bradford" as Ormskirk is "in Liverpool" or Watford is "in London", or indeed Bradford is "in Leeds". I think that's stretching it. As it happens I have stayed in Bradford once, but that was because it was the cheapest Premier Inn in the area, which says a fair bit on its own

Yeah that was a daft spelling error on my part. However those places are now considered part of Bradford, and certainly they pay their council taxes to Bradford, they are part of Bradford's tourism, they are Bradford. That the city used to be smaller is now irrelevant, I mean if you wanted to be very pedantic you could claim that Bradford is just the area around City Hall (a very nice building as I'm sure you are aware), because that is where the broad ford across the beck was that Bradford took it's name from (the beck still runs under it to this day, through a vaulted chamber beneath it).

I am not annoyed - more frustrated at your unwillingness to consider a different position to your own. You and others have a very fixed view about Milton Keynes and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change it.

I am sure I held similar views before I moved here but the truth, that you seem to want to ignore, is different.

As I said, I was curious as to why MK ticked the boxes of the folk making the decision. But so far all I've had is "its nice", "its big", and "shut up your city is a dump" as responses. Oh and of course its an urban planners Nirvana, although as I type I remain unconvinced that there is a huge tourism industry associated with that. And nobody has even mentioned the concrete cows yet!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Better to be disliked than ignored Bantamzen!

And Bradford is of course a city because of the sheer size of the place and having a cathedral. It stretched from Thackley to Wyke and from Thornton to Tong pre 1974 before places like Shipley and Saltaire were added, which are part of the same built-up conurbation. I would also argue that the Bradford - Leeds boundary should be at Stanningley Bottom, where through BCT (4' 0") and LCT (4' 8.5") trams used to changed gauge, rather than Thornbury roundabout. Keighley and Ilkley might be ruled by the same Bradford council but are separate towns.

The best was to judge the relative sizes of cities is to take an annual subscription to electronic OS Maps, great value at £28.99 a year and look at how big the built-up areas are on the 1:50000 map. Bradford is much bigger than say Doncaster, Chester, York or Carlisle. Actually I was quite surprised how big an area MK covers, but of course the density is lower which, of course, defines the place.

 

[birchesgreen]

And nobody has even mentioned the concrete cows yet!

Oh the concrete cows! I once worked with someone whose claim to fame was that he was the one who had the idea of putting advertising on them. He used to mention it about 10 times a day...

I don't really get why some folks have a downer on Milton Keynes, i've found it a perfectly fine place especially some of the constituent parts and outlying areas like Blectchley and Bow Brickhill. Questioning it being made a city is odd.

 

[Bantamzen]

Better to be disliked than ignored Bantamzen!

And Bradford is of course a city because of the sheer size of the place and having a cathedral. It stretched from Thackley to Wyke and from Thornton to Tong pre 1974 before places like Shipley and Saltaire were added, which are part of the same built-up conurbation. I would also argue that the Bradford - Leeds boundary should be at Stanningley Bottom, where through BCT (4' 0") and LCT (4' 8.5") trams used to changed gauge, rather than Thornbury roundabout. Keighley and Ilkley might be ruled by the same Bradford council but are separate towns.

The best was to judge the relative sizes of cities is to take an annual subscription to electronic OS Maps, great value at £28.99 a year and look at how big the built-up areas are on the 1:50000 map. Bradford is much bigger than say Doncaster, Chester, York or Carlisle. Actually I was quite surprised how big an area MK covers, but of course the density is lower which, of course, defines the place.

Ha ha, indeed. I'm sure Milton Keynes is a really lovely place, just not that interesting. Whereas Bradford...

Well sure we haven't the most successful city centre, we've seen terrible tragedy and violence over the years. But we have also had some highs, including rebuilding our city physically and socially, and the high of City making the Premier League, when we literally drank the city centre dry!

Yeah we are battered, bruised and perhaps overly cynical. But the city still has a lot to offer, scratch the rough surface and you find a lot of history, culture, and really, really decent people. And with the moors and Aire Valley just a stone's throw away, we have some amazing scenery to enjoy, as well as an emerging craft pub scene, some of the UKs finest curries, and hopefully soon a return to a vibrant live music scene once the Odeon reopens. Bradford is alright.

Oh and of course under the stewardship of Mark Hughes, there will be a climb back through the divisions for the Mighty Bantams

Oh the concrete cows! I once worked with someone whose claim to fame was that he was the one who had the idea of putting advertising on them. He used to mention it about 10 times a day...

The winter evenings must fly by in his home.

I don't really get why some folks have a downer on Milton Keynes, i've found it a perfectly fine place especially some of the constituent parts and outlying areas like Blectchley and Bow Brickhill. Questioning it being made a city is odd.

To be honest it's not that I have a downer on MK, it's just that I can't see why it beat other places to city status.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Oh the concrete cows! I once worked with someone whose claim to fame was that he was the one who had the idea of putting advertising on them. He used to mention it about 10 times a day...

Do students still keep putting concrete cow pats underneath their back ends these days?

 

[Runningaround]

So it's a nice place to live, and handy for a commute into the big smoke. But save a few remote villages and lots of farmland until the urban sprawl was built, not much in the way of history or culture.


Hmmm, not sure a higher ratio of over priced coffees, beers, pastries, and tattooed beardies would be a qualifier for city status.

Look I'm sure Milton Keynes is a lovely, happy place. But I just don't see it as somewhere one would call a city, and certainly not a place you would go out of your way to visit. Surely at the very least a city is somewhere of interest to non-locals, somewhere you might go for a day trip or even a stay-over? Sure its got a big former clay pit bowl used for gigs, and an over-sized stadium for it's MkFranchise football team, but these are not really places of interest. Call my old fashioned if you will, but cities to me should be interesting places to see.

But that's what the historic city centres are, with towns your wanting to become cities are turning into.


So gaining city status is all about who wants to go there and nothing to do with those living there, considering it's growth few places have as many moving into it than MK. It's a place gaining importance and is of significant interest on how we go about building for the future and I'm sure the F1 manufacturers are of interest to the outside world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do students still keep putting concrete cow pats underneath their back ends these days?

Never seen that, though graffiti-ing them is popular. They aren't actually the originals but rather replicas, the originals are kept securely somewhere and are occasionally out on display with security e.g. in the shopping centre a while back.

 

[Bantamzen]

But that's what the historic city centres are, with towns your wanting to become cities are turning into.


So gaining city status is all about who wants to go there and nothing to do with those living there, considering it's growth few places have as many moving into it than MK. It's a place gaining importance and is of significant interest on how we go about building for the future and I'm sure the F1 manufacturers are of interest to the outside world.

Do people visit MK because of the F1 industry? It shouldn't just be about the people that live there or the industry around, but the significance of the area to the wider country. And whilst MK may hold some slight significance in how it came about, there really is little else that I can see that makes it stand out from hundreds of other towns around England.

Some other people may consider my fair city a dump, but they might also want to remember that Bradford was the birthplace of the Labour party. We even have a mural commemorating the fact just on the outskirts of the city centre.

Never seen that, though graffiti-ing them is popular. They aren't actually the originals but rather replicas, the originals are kept securely somewhere and are occasionally out on display with security e.g. in the shopping centre a while back.

Seriously? The original concrete cows are stored securely to only be displayed occasionally? And you guys wonder why we take the proverbial out of Milton Keynes...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seriously? The original concrete cows are stored securely to only be displayed occasionally? And you guys wonder why we take the proverbial out of Milton Keynes...

Yes, due to persistent vandalism.

 

[DarloRich]

Seriously? The original concrete cows are stored securely to only be displayed occasionally?

yes - they get vandalised by jealous, prejudiced people from less successful towns & cities.

Apparently we havent got any art or culture in MK though.

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there really is little else that I can see that makes it stand out from hundreds of other towns around England.

You have been given many reasons why MK stands out. You simply wont consider them and then invent further arbitrary criteria to reinforce your preconceptions.

 

[AlterEgo]

The best was to judge the relative sizes of cities is to take an annual subscription to electronic OS Maps, great value at £28.99 a year and look at how big the built-up areas are on the 1:50000 map. Bradford is much bigger than say Doncaster, Chester, York or Carlisle.

Untrue. Carlisle is, by a considerable distance, the largest city in the UK at about 400 square miles! Of course the map doesn’t tell you that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2022 ==

Do people visit MK because of the F1 industry? It shouldn't just be about the people that live there or the industry around, but the significance of the area to the wider country.

Like all cities MK has significant regional importance and has a large hinterland that extends well over the size of a traditional county. Buckinghamshire, Northamptonshire and Bedfordshire all have no cities anyway, and it’s this area that MK has most influence.

Some other people may consider my fair city a dump, but they might also want to remember that Bradford was the birthplace of the Labour party. We even have a mural commemorating the fact just on the outskirts of the city centre.

Can’t really tell if that’s a serious claim on Bradford’s city status, which in any case was received via the same method as MK, by petitioning the monarch, who agreed based on Bradford’s increasing size and regional status.

“Something once happened here” and “tourists come here” isn’t what makes a city.

 

[SargeNpton]

Oh and the diesel engine was invented in Fenny Stratford.

Strictly speaking, the "Hornsby Akroyd Patent Oil Engine" is not a true diesel engine, requiring a separate chamber in which the fuel is ignited.

 

[cactustwirly]

Everyone is going on about MK, but Doncaster?? What has it got going for it, just a town. It's smaller than Reading, doesn't have a university and isn't a hub for the region. Sheffield is the focal point of South Yorks.

Bournemouth should have got City status as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

Everyone is going on about MK, but Doncaster?? What has it got going for it, just a town. It's smaller than Reading, doesn't have a university and isn't a hub for the region. Sheffield is the focal point of South Yorks.

Bournemouth should have got City status as well.

Doncaster did raise an eyebrow, but I think the government/Crown wanted to award one to the north of England and Doncaster was probably the best of the candidates.

 

[roversfan2001]

Doncaster has been trying to become a city for years too; it lost out to Preston in 2002.

 

[Runningaround]

Do people visit MK because of the F1 industry? It shouldn't just be about the people that live there or the industry around, but the significance of the area to the wider country. And whilst MK may hold some slight significance in how it came about, there really is little else that I can see that makes it stand out from hundreds of other towns around England.

Some other people may consider my fair city a dump, but they might also want to remember that Bradford was the birthplace of the Labour party. We even have a mural commemorating the fact just on the outskirts of the city centre.


Seriously? The original concrete cows are stored securely to only be displayed occasionally? And you guys wonder why we take the proverbial out of Milton Keynes...

Well if Bradford and MK both went for city status today based on the criteria, MK would beat Bradford.

 

[Bantamzen]

Like all cities MK has significant regional importance and has a large hinterland that extends well over the size of a traditional county. Buckinghamshire, Northamptonshire and Bedfordshire all have no cities anyway, and it’s this area that MK has most influence.

Is there a reason for why Milton Keynes influences such a wide area?

Can’t really tell if that’s a serious claim on Bradford’s city status, which in any case was received via the same method as MK, by petitioning the monarch, who agreed based on Bradford’s increasing size and regional status.

Its one piece of Bradford's long and turbulent history, and a rather important one for the political history of this country.

“Something once happened here” and “tourists come here” isn’t what makes a city.

OK maybe not, but this city does have a lot of history and people do come here because of it. But being a nice place, or that quite a lot of people like living there is no more of a reason. The whole point of my curiosity was to discover what make Milton Keynes stand out from the other, unsuccessful candidates.

Well if Bradford and MK both went for city status today based on the criteria, MK would beat Bradford.

What criteria exactly?

 

[SargeNpton]

Is there a reason for why Milton Keynes influences such a wide area?

Initially, that would have been because of the Central Milton Keynes shopping mall - at the time of opening the largest in the country. Prior to that, the residents of North Bucks would probably have shopped in either Northampton, Bedford or Aylesbury.

Since then, MK has acquired its own hospital, cinema, theatre, etc; which further added to its pull.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there a reason for why Milton Keynes influences such a wide area?

Yes, there are no settlements comparable to it in the locality, hence the original plan was not for a new town but in fact a new city by design. It is the regional economic powerhouse with a wider and more populous hinterland than most existing UK cities. It sits at the nexus of three counties, none of which have a city or anything close to being one, with great respect to places like Northampton and Luton.

If Milton Keynes was next to Bradford and Leeds, it wouldn't be as large and it would have a much weaker claim to city status.

Its one piece of Bradford's long and turbulent history, and a rather important one for the political history of this country.

So? Should Runnymede be a city? Hastings?

OK maybe not, but this city does have a lot of history and people do come here because of it. But being a nice place, or that quite a lot of people like living there is no more of a reason.

Indeed they are both nebulous reasons, but MK's regional prominence and being a city be design are, I think, the key factors in its award. Just saying "MK is boring and grey and drab" is not really anything to do with its status but more the sort of opinion people might hold if they don't know the place well. I can well understand people who visit and go to the centre or maybe a few other estates think it's very anonymous - in fact had I never lived in MK I may even have the same opinion! - but there is a distinct MK identity and civic pride.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2022 ==

Initially, that would have been because of the Central Milton Keynes shopping mall - at the time of opening the largest in the country. Prior to that, the residents of North Bucks would probably have shopped in either Northampton, Bedford or Aylesbury.

Since then, MK has acquired its own hospital, cinema, theatre, etc; which further added to its pull.

It's also a hub for hi-tech industry. It does act as a sort of vortex for the area, sucking in investment with its potential to increase capacity and expand more easily than other towns in the area. As I said, a city by design.

 

[Busaholic]

Something worth considering for those places that missed out on city status is that the coronation of a new monarch is likely to bring with it a further round of letters patent. So there is hope yet in the years to come for Reading et al.

THC

Woking needn't bother applying then.

 

[johncrossley]

Should city status be abolished? If there are advantages for the towns with such status, that implies that there are disadvantages for towns which don't have it. When St Davids and Stanley are cities and Bournemouth and Reading aren't, that means the whole concept of city status is nonsense anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2022 ==

In terms of largest settlements (as opposed to largest towns) Reading comes 25th on the list and Bournemouth in 30th

But if you look at urban area size (which is really what makes sense as historical boundaries are largely out of date), Bournemouth/Poole is 16th, bigger than Cardiff and Coventry

List of urban areas in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2022 ==

The biggest place that isn't a Stadt is Seevetal near Hamburg

which only has about 40,000 inhabitants according to Wikipedia.

Seevetal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the UK, some towns with over 200,000 inhabitants don't have city status. It does seem a peculiar British thing and it causes more upset than it is worth.