Prosecution letter

[jon0844]

How do you leave a ticket on a train? Throw it on the seat, a table.. in the bin? All seem unlikely, and probably easily proven by asking the train crew to keep the bin bags for inspection one day and count how many tickets are inside them. Do any trains have bins by the doors that encourage you to put in tickets, as you might on a bus (the one place where you could get rid of your ticket at the point of stepping off).

Now I do throw away old tickets sometimes when I go through my ticket wallet on the train as something to do, so perhaps others do too - but I'd never throw away a current ticket. If I did, it would be accidental and then I'd have to accept the punishment for being stupid.

 

[AJP62]

Best thing your mate can do is write to SET enclosing a copy of the letter recieved and ask them if it is genuine, explaining the reasons as to why you are suspicious of it, give no further details as of yet other than a return address, if it is a genuine letter then SET will reply with a similar letter, if it is genuine then in order to avoid court your mate should write to SET offering to pay the outstanding fare plus any reasonable admin fees and they MAY decide to withdraw the case and settle out of court but they are not obliged to, the worst thing your mate can do is ignore it, it wont go away, SET will apply for a summons and that will be the next contact you hear from them if you dont get hold of them.

Below is the customer service address for SET.

As for the technicality on the letter, this doesn't really hold much chance of getting him off as they are not obliged to send any correspondence before the summons and it would need to be a pretty laxe Prosecutor to make the same mistake on the summons, the letter he recieved was probably just a "standard" letter.

SOUTHEASTERN CUSTOMER SERVICES,
PO BOX 63428,
LONDON
SE1P 5FD

Telephone 0845 000 2222

Thanks for that. He spoke to someone up here yesterday and they gave him those details by the sound of it. He then spoke to a guy at South Eastern explaining what had happened and what he'd received and was told to return the letter for investigation.

I don't think he thinks it's a dodgy letter he just doesn't want to supply his details for something that may not be his case. The SET guy said the admin for this is a nightmare and mistakes get made. If the letter had referenced Virgin or NT there'd have been no questions asked. Probably just a user error resulting in the wrong standard letter being dispatched but I was a bit more suspicious due to my work background and the absense of any contact details to question the content. There was a bit about 'send no money with this letter' even though there was no mention of cash anywhere - that made me think if it was dodgy the next letter would ask for something! The old reassuring first letter before the scam hits routine.

Once he has a genuine letter he decide his course of action!

 

[b0b]

TM: "Can I see your ticket from there to Cardiff?"
Passenger: "Err, I left it on the other train"
TM: "That's a pity, I'll have to sell you another one from there"

Saying "I threw the ticket away" = I am not in possession of a ticket, and is treated as such.

wait what? why would you have to retain and show a ticket from somewhere to Cardiff?

 

[moonrakerz]

If you are in a CTA, however, then you MUST have a ticket on you, which is quite clear in the conditions of carriage. If you're assisting someone onto the train in a CTA then you ought to purchase a platform ticket.

This is where it gets rather silly.

You DO NOT need a ticket to access a CTA.

NRCoC says:
"Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:..............................
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to Travel" (My highlighting)

The DfT RULES say:
"The arrangements might include making platform tickets available at the ticket office or from a machine. People who are helping passengers with disabilities should not be charged to enter a CTA."
(My highlighting)

Only on Tues of this week my daughter was allowed access to a CTA, (Waterloo) to see her mother off, she had no ticket. When I tried to buy a platform ticket from SWT I was told "we've been told not to sell them".

The whole thing is shambolic. The problem is that most people who end up in Court just plead "Guilty" to get it over and done with. Those who are fully aware of the chaotic rules are savvy enough not to get as far as Court, so the Rules are never actually "tested" in Court.

I honestly think the TOCs are making it more difficult for themselves (and the public !!) by either not following the laid down rules or making up their own as they go along !

 

[nedchester]

OK maybe 'entrapment' may be a bit strong BUT I would say that the whole thing could be seen as legally dubious.

Firstly the vast majority of the public would not even think about going to the ticket office at the end of the journey to buy their ticket. Sometimes they may get off the train and walk out of the entrance without the ticket office to go past. The experts on here know they are fair dodging but many folk would just see it as the fault of the railway for not gripping them for the fare. Maybe if the TOCs are going to do 'stings' like this then it should be spelled out to passengers that they need to buy a ticket at destination?

As has been said above many will just go to court and that's it but I suspect someone with a good lawyer could get someone off?

 

[Flamingo]

wait what? why would you have to retain and show a ticket from somewhere to Cardiff?

If they say that they want a ticket from Cardiff, I want to see proof that they paid for the rest of their journey from whatever unbarriered station they claim they started from, otherwise they pay for the whole journey.

 

[island]

My understanding is that when RPIs do a block check at a station without a CTA, they are required to search the area around the platform (basically anywhere that there could be someone waiting in who hasn't travelled) beforehand unless they are in a position to see that someone who they are checking has alighted from the train in question.

If a person has had the opportunity to buy a ticket for their journey before, during, or after the journey, and has declined to do so, I have no sympathy for what happens to them after that. On the other hand, if travelling from an unstaffed no-TVM station to an unstaffed station with a TVM and you don't see a guard, I don't think there is an obligation to buy from the TVM after alighting, as the TVM won't sell you the ticket for your journey. I expect to be making just such a journey tomorrow.

 

[Stigy]

In answer to the OPs initial question, although clearly some clerical errors on the letter, if you reply and say that you weren't on a Southeastern Train (which you weren't), or indeed any train in 2011 (which you obviously weren't), then they'll simply send out a new letter as they will obviously know why you answered such. This might put their backs up, and if your friend was hoping to settle out of court by grovelling and offering to pay reasonable admin costs, they might be less inclined to do so.

The letter here isn't the important part of this case, the statement (MG11) submitted by the RPI, is. The MG11 will state the time and date the alledged offence took place, and indeed what train the person was travelling on etc etc. The MG11 is what matters most in court, and the letter sent out before a summons, will most definitely, and legally, be edited and reissued. Sorry if I've missed anything here, as I have skimmed through some of the tread!

 

[b0b]

If they say that they want a ticket from Cardiff, I want to see proof that they paid for the rest of their journey from whatever unbarriered station they claim they started from, otherwise they pay for the whole journey.

but on what basis can you enforce that? how do you know they didn't just throw their ticket away on the platform at Cardiff as part of a split?

 

[yorkie]

but on what basis can you enforce that?

The customer is stating that they are making a journey from A to C, with no evidence of having paid for any of that journey. The fact they are at B is irrelevant as their journey is from A, not B.

I'm with Flamingo on this one!

how do you know they didn't just throw their ticket away on the platform at Cardiff as part of a split?

Can you give an example as to how this scenario may arise?

The only thing I can think of is that you wanted to do a 'split' from a station with a machine and no other facilities, in which case you can pay for part of the journey (e.g. to B) and upgrade the ticket later. If cheaper, you can get an additional ticket rather than an excess.

If you do not have the ticket from A to B, then you have no evidence of having done that. Therefore it is reasonable to charge again from A.

 

[SouthStand]

A common one I get coming out of Cardiff is
TM: "Tickets please"
Passenger: "Ticket from Cardiff to Swansea"
TM: "How did you get through the barriers?"
Passenger: "I came in from somewhere else"
TM: "Can I see your ticket from there to Cardiff?"
Passenger: "Err, I left it on the other train"
TM: "That's a pity, I'll have to sell you another one from there"

Some pay, some argue, some say they want two tickets, X to Cardiff, and Cardiff to wherever (which if they ask for it first I will do, but not after they have been caught!).

Saying "I threw the ticket away" = I am not in possession of a ticket, and is treated as such.

This post is quite scary. Can you show the byelaw which states the passenger has to prove/provide evidence of paying for an earlier journey? This reminds me of a thread a few months back where the ticket seller at station A wanted to see the ticket from A to B before selling a ticket from B to C.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The customer is stating that they are making a journey from A to C, with no evidence of having paid for any of that journey. The fact they are at B is irrelevant as their journey is from A, not B.

Is that not at odds to your view a while back (I cannot find the thread at the moment) where you said that it was wrong for ticket clerks to ask to see evidence of previous travel?

 

[222007]

How long should someone realistically expect to keep a ticket

When selling anyone a ticket i always reccomend they keep there ticket untill they have left the station at there destination. I know a lot of the TM's and senior conductors on my TOC make announcements regarding keeping tickets safe as ticket barriers MAY be in operation. My TOC is also very good at getting messeges out to staff regarding ticket office closures and barriers not being manned.

 

[yorkie]

This post is quite scary.

I can understand your concerns, but when you read it carefully, I don't think it is.

Can you show the byelaw which states the passenger has to prove/provide evidence of paying for an earlier journey?

But it's not an earlier journey. In the scenario quoted the customers have stated that they started their journey earlier from a preceding station.

This reminds me of a thread a few months back where the ticket seller at station A wanted to see the ticket from A to B before selling a ticket from B to C.

A ticket office is obliged to sell the tickets you ask for, with certain limitations. It's not the job of ticket clerks to do revenue protection. It is the job of guards to do that.

Is that not at odds to your view a while back (I cannot find the thread at the moment) where you said that it was wrong for ticket clerks to ask to see evidence of previous travel?

Well, see my reply to SouthStand above, although I think the issue wasn't regarding previous travel as that wouldn't make sense to me.

I think the issue was that someone wanted to buy a ticket from B to C when they were at A, and the ticket clerk wanted to see the ticket from A to B. The customer has not yet left A and it is not the clerk's job to check tickets.

This is quite different to a situation where the customer has already travelled from A to B and has declared to the guard (whose job it is to check tickets) that their journey is from A to C and has no evidence of having paid for the portion of the journey that they have already undertaken.

 

[Old Timer]

This post is quite scary. Can you show the byelaw which states the passenger has to prove/provide evidence of paying for an earlier journey? .

Really ?

Please explain what said person is doing on a train without a ticket to the actual destination, and no ticket for the earlier part of the journey ?

 

[SouthStand]

Really ?

Please explain what said person is doing on a train without a ticket to the actual destination, and no ticket for the earlier part of the journey ?

Well, i'm assuming that it's ok to purchase a ticket on the train in this particular circumstance, otherwise the TM in the "story" would've stated otherwise rather than asking how he got through the barriers.

Also, assuming that it's ok to purchase on the train, if the passenger bought and used a ticket from wherever to Cardiff and no longer has it I don't see problem. Which goes back to my original point, he shouldn't need to prove it.

If it's not ok to purchase onboard in this situation, then that's fine.

 

[Flamingo]

but on what basis can you enforce that? how do you know they didn't just throw their ticket away on the platform at Cardiff as part of a split?

If they are travelling as a split they will have both parts. If they ask for a ticket from a barriered station, it is up to them to prove how they got onto the platform of that station without a ticket, as otherwise they have committed a bylaw offence. If they say that they got onto the platform by coming from a different train, the onus is on them to prove that they paid for that part of the journey.

If they say straight off "I've come from Barry, can I have a ticket from Barry to Cardiff and a ticket from Cardiff to Swansea" that is what I will sell them. If they say "Can I have a ticket from Cardiff to Swansea", then I start questioning them. If they then say they started from Barry, then a Barry-Swansea ticket is required unless they can prove they paid for the Barry-Cardiff stretch by producing a ticket.

If they threw the ticket away, it's no different than if they had thrown their Cardiff-Swansea ticket away - they are not in possession of a valid ticket for their journey, and have to pay accordingly.

I'm with Flamingo on this one!.

Thank you

 

[Old Timer]

Well, i'm assuming that it's ok to purchase a ticket on the train in this particular circumstance, otherwise the TM in the "story" would've stated otherwise rather than asking how he got through the barriers.

Also, assuming that it's ok to purchase on the train, if the passenger bought and used a ticket from wherever to Cardiff and no longer has it I don't see problem. Which goes back to my original point, he shouldn't need to prove it.

If it's not ok to purchase onboard in this situation, then that's fine.

You still do not explain why the passenger is not in possession of the ticket.


1889 Regulation of Railways Act ASSUMES that a passenger will always purchase a ticket to their destination BEFORE starting their journey.

Condition 2 of the NRCoC REQUIRE a passenger to Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

 

[SouthStand]

You still do not explain why the passenger is not in possession of the ticket.


1889 Regulation of Railways Act ASSUMES that a passenger will always purchase a ticket to their destination BEFORE starting their journey.

Condition 2 of the NRCoC REQUIRE a passenger to Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

Not really sure what you're asking here. He had a ticket from whereever to Cardiff - he arrived safely and binned it. (Assuming it's allowed), he now wants to buy a Cardiff to Swansea ticket onboard. If he's not allowed to do that at Cardiff then fine, issue a penalty fare or whatever the rules state. He does not have to prove how he got to Cardiff.

I probably ought to clarify, I'm assuming he arrived from whereever on a separate train to the one he's now on. Besides, the point i'm trying to make is that guards/TMs cannot simply presume passengers are pulling a fast one whenever a situation like this occurs.

 

[yorkie]

It's going off on a tangent now. It looks like a disagreement is being accidentally created where there was none.

The reason given for the passenger not having a ticket in the circumstance described was that they claim to have thrown it away.

I believe Flamingo's response to be both reasonable and correct.

 

[Old Timer]

Not really sure what you're asking here. He had a ticket from whereever to Cardiff - he arrived safely and binned it. (Assuming it's allowed), he now wants to buy a Cardiff to Swansea ticket onboard. If he's not allowed to do that at Cardiff then fine, issue a penalty fare or whatever the rules state. He does not have to prove how he got to Cardiff.

I probably ought to clarify, I'm assuming he arrived from whereever on a separate train to the one he's now on. Besides, the point i'm trying to make is that guards/TMs cannot simply presume passengers are pulling a fast one whenever a situation like this occurs.

It clearly states in the NRCoC that it is the passenger's responsibility to produce a valid ticket for the journey. It also clearly states that the ticket remains the property of the train company, thus throwing it away or otherwise disposing of it could, if someone wanted to be particularly pedantic, be dealt with as theft.

Your views do not stand up as it is not normal for people to simply throw away tickets whilst still travelling, and it is not unreasonable to assume that a passenger travelling further on would still want to retain their ticket as proof of what they have paid, otherwise how do they demonstrate that they have had a valid ticket ? The onus is upon THEM and NOT the train company to prove that they held a valid ticket.

In any case they are in breach of the NRCoC simply by being ON the train beyond the destination of their (alleged) but now missing ticket.

Is it a rational act to buy a ticket part way to your destination ? Is it a rational act to travel beyond your ticketed destination without obtaining a new ticket ?

In BR days this scenario would immediately set off all the fare evasion alarm bells.

 

[Flamingo]

Not really sure what you're asking here. He had a ticket from whereever to Cardiff - he arrived safely and binned it. (Assuming it's allowed), he now wants to buy a Cardiff to Swansea ticket onboard. If he's not allowed to do that at Cardiff then fine, issue a penalty fare or whatever the rules state. He does not have to prove how he got to Cardiff.

I probably ought to clarify, I'm assuming he arrived from whereever on a separate train to the one he's now on. Besides, the point i'm trying to make is that guards/TMs cannot simply presume passengers are pulling a fast one whenever a situation like this occurs.

You're wrong you know - we can and do assume passengers are pulling a fast one unless they can show us otherwise. (Cynical, moi? I prefer to call it experience )

They are on a train without a ticket having come from a manned barriered station, so the bylaw offence has been committed unless they have started their journey from a station with no facilities to buy a ticket.

Their choice - be nicked for jumping a barrier / walking past a ticket office, or pay a fare from their original starting point.

 

[b0b]

Their choice - be nicked for jumping a barrier / walking past a ticket office, or pay a fare from their original starting point.

Now I've thought about it, surely they've committed fraud since they initially asked for a ticket from Cardiff?

 

[Flamingo]

Now I've thought about it, surely they've committed fraud since they initially asked for a ticket from Cardiff?

Yep, but without BTP on-board there is not a lot that can be done about it, from a practical pint of view.