Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[Wilts Wanderer]

Completely unsurprised at this result, but it will prove disastrous with hindsight.

Anyone thinking the travelling public will stand in solidarity with striking railway workers, on the first summer in three years when leisure travel should be possible again, is delusional. People get angry when they lose freedom of choice and that anger isn’t going to be directed at DfT, HMT or Boris. (Chances are quite a percentage of the electorate will assume Labour support the action and probably harms the chances of unseating the Tories at the next GE.)

If I was a coach tour operator, I’d be rubbing my hands and looking at ways to bolster my resources for the coming summer demand.

Just a thought - if the gvt was to offer an inflation-level pay rise to railway workers, but in order to fund it they raised a new tax, levied from everyone’s incomes across the economy, how much public support do you think it would get?

 

[Wolfie]

Whatever happened to Boris saying about how great our economy would be, how people would all be enjoying higher wages and a better quality of life?

Instead, we're being asked to pay more for essentials we mostly can't avoid, and being told there's no money for pay increases.

It's so much a race to the bottom and if the likes of the RMT and others lose, we all lose. It isn't sufficient to think that if you can't get a pay rise, nobody should - as eventually that will become the standard.

Re your first para all l will say is that he isn't exactly famous for his truthfulness.

 

[778]

Now that we have the result of the ballot, how long will it be until we know the strike dates? Is it more likely weekends will be targeted as one poster suggested? I am hoping we would get at least 3 weeks notice.

Interesting that Thameslink staff (GTR), did not vote for a strike.

 

[Facing Back]

Let's be realistic - the Government is provoking this fight. Much like they did with Guards on Southern. How'd that go?

As far as I can tell both sides won. The train manager's kept their jobs and apparently received pay increases and the government reduced the risk of strike action from the guard critically damaging the service and a key commuter line.

 

[Wolfie]

That's One hell of a blow to the Gov

I suspect that many in the Tory party will welcome it. They will regard it as a chance to replay the miners strike.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

This could of all been avoided by offering a small percentage 6 months ago.

Has it occurred to you that the current Cabinet may not have wished to avoid it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

That’s the point though, against this government it is pointless, in fact all the RMT will do is give the Tories the justification to further limit strikes and unions…

I suspect that they have been waiting for an opportunity and may even have engineered it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

100% agree with this, because I was one of them, albeit one of the lucky ones who did work right through. I dread to think how I'd have been if I hadn't.

I worked right through albeit on a laptop from home most of the time. There were some aspects of my job that could only be done in the office though. I'm not sure how l would have coped being furloughed. I do know that a number of colleagues working from home had serious mental health issues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

This 100%, it was proper scary for the first few months of the pandemic when we knew little about the virus, no vaccine, no ppe. Still had to go in all the same. Not looking for a reward or a special little badge either but to say we were 'lucky' furloughed is taking the p@$#!

Now that l completely agree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

@DanNCL or instead they could get their backsides around the negotiating table and come to a mutual agreement that would be beneficial for the staff and the industry. Would that be much easier than rushing countermeasuring legislation through parlaiment?

A mutual agreement? On the pay aspect? No chance.

 

[yorkie]

As far as I can tell both sides won. The train manager's kept their jobs and apparently received pay increases and the government reduced the risk of strike action from the guard critically damaging the service and a key commuter line.

The RMT wanted the role of Guard to remain; they lost.

 

[MCSHF007]

I feel that there's a key point being overlooked here.

For the sake of argument let's assume (as seems reasonable) there's an acceptance that living costs (gas/electric/petrol/food/internet etc etc) have gone up by c.£3k per annum per household.

If you're on anything up to c.£30-35k per year then (morally at least) there's some justification to a 10% pay claim.

If though (again hypothetically) you're on c.£70k, then I'd doubt very much whether your "cost of living" has increased by £7k. Obviously willing to be corrected on this.

So I'd grudgingly support 10% pay claims for those on c.£30k but "much less so" on anyone earning upwards of £60k

~

 

[Facing Back]

To my mind this is exacerbated by the halfway house we have now and I suspect the record will show HMT didn't agree with taking over the franchises and now they have the problem on the bottom line of govt they want it sorted. That said it needs some cool heads here to find a way through this that isn't at the detriment of the industry and its workforce. Govt should offer 5% and another 5% to come from efficiencies across the entire industry. Its senior mgt salary bill has also rocketed over the years its not just drivers and other staff that have done well then there are all the hangers on in the industry now that make operating it just more costly than it needs to be.

Sounds to me like a sensible and reasoned type of compromise - all we need are sensible and reasoned minds in the RMT, Treasury and DfT. Lets give it a couple of years, maybe Santa will deliver... My suspicion from the reading is that the ideology will take time to overcome of both sides.

If this was the miner's strike and Thatcher was leading the government I would have a different prediction. Say what you think about her, she earned the name Iron Lady and whilst she laid waste to the miners, she stuck to her principles and beliefs and saw them through - righty or wrongly. Anyone betting than Iron Boris will be remembered for his principles?

 

[Wolfie]

I did warn you.....and so did your colleagues. So .... signalling staff , guards, and drivers all strike on separate days. Each grade loses a day's pay, but the railway shuts down for 3 days. That's the likely reality. And it could well go on for a long time.

In which case lots of taxpayers will demand massive subsidy cuts.....

 

[Facing Back]

The RMT wanted the role of Guard to remain; they lost.

Indeed. But none of them were fired, in fact from my reading here, numbers are up and they are paid more. The RMT lost a position of principle and some of their influence, neither of which I care about, but I don't see how the train managers lost out from it.

Maybe I missed something?

 

[Wolfie]

So on the one hand the railways are so essential that you want to ban strike action. On the other we will all be made redundant because nobody will use it anymore.

You can’t have it both ways!

Keep in mind we already have extremely strict anti union laws in this country, and the list of countries with stricter prohibitions (some where unions are banned altogether) is a highly disreputable one which nobody who values decent democratic principles should want the U.K. to join.

Italy, hardly a bastion of oppression, has a list of essential rail services which have to be operated during any strike action.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Project Fear

Perhaps, given that many of the things given that label previously turned out to be reality, not the brightest label ever. I can tell you that inside the Civil Service money is the tightest that l have ever known it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Well, they've got their mandate and no-one can argue it isn't a strong one. Personally I'm just sad. My gut feeling is that this will not end well. This Government and in particular the Treasury I can't see having any inclination to do anything other than offer perhaps a modest pay increase (well below inflation). I suspect anything else will require job cuts or productivity improvements. I hope I'm wrong and that the HM Treasury are bluffing and now having had their bluff called will do a deal. But I doubt it.

I suspect that HM Treasury will be rubbing that hands in glee at the opportunity to finally do something about the blasted railway and that bottomless pit of money (in their mind) that it consumes. I have no doubt that they're probably still irritated that whilst they were able to force pay freezes or 1% rises on the public sector the railway was able to get above inflation rises back during the worst of austerity in the early 2010s. Equally I'm sure that they're still rankling at the millions that they poured into the industry during Covid. I have no doubt that given their time again they'd have told all the TOCs to just furlough staff and not bother running anything other than a true skeleton service over most routes (enough perhaps to keep up route and traction knowledge with staff shuffling on and off furlough in sequence, see Eurostar for the example). Then there's the bunch of shysters that make up the actual Government. I have no doubt that they'll be ecstatic at the opportunity to have a good punch up with a Union. That's some nice juicy red meat to feed to their base and to the Daily Mail et al to distract from their mates ransacking the country and all the booze fuelled parties that were definitely work events.

Hopefully I'm just pessimistic and this will all work out okay in the long run. But right now? I can't help but feeling that even if a short term deal is secured in the long run the Treasury will finally be able to manoeuvre things to do real damage to what it sees as a blackhole eating it's money.

Sadly l fear that you are spot on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Nobody will win. All this will do is accelerate the inevitable cuts to services.

Also to staff l suspect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

I wouldn't be surprised that, if this ends up resulting in lengthy strike action, that the Government takes the option of addressing several issues once and for all by issuing new contracts across the industry:
- national pay bargaining (to stop the market between TOCs and the resulting wage inflation).
- DOO-P in all drivers' contracts.
- Sundays in the working week.
- 40hr week (the increase from 35hr week would probably resource Sundays to a large degree).
- Pay increase - perhaps around 3%?

It would likely then be a case of sign the new contract or you're out. At the same time, things like ticket offices would have a major cull to take cost out of the industry.

That would be typical of HMT's approach l agree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

To my mind this is exacerbated by the halfway house we have now and I suspect the record will show HMT didn't agree with taking over the franchises and now they have the problem on the bottom line of govt they want it sorted. That said it needs some cool heads here to find a way through this that isn't at the detriment of the industry and its workforce. Govt should offer 5% and another 5% to come from efficiencies across the entire industry. Its senior mgt salary bill has also rocketed over the years its not just drivers and other staff that have done well then there are all the hangers on in the industry now that make operating it just more costly than it needs to be.

Given that most of the public sector have been offered 2% with efficiencies to be found there is no way HMT will offer 10%......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Does the UK actually have strict anti-union laws compared to other countries, as stated on this thread? Famously militant countries, France and Italy, have minimum service requirements on strike days, which the UK doesn't.

Yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Ticket office closure lists won’t have had a dramatic impact. Most people including those in said ticket offices knew it was an out of date lists but still impacts them all the same

The NR director saying that people should of worked harder at school for better pay certainly did however

That was a spectacularly stupid statement. It suggested a wholly inappropriate attitude.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Italy, hardly a bastion of oppression, has a list of essential rail services which have to be operated during any strike action.

Yes, I was in Italy in Winter 2021 on one of their strike days.

They have a stack of PDFs on their website which list their "guaranteed trains"

In case of strike - Trenitalia

www.trenitalia.com

Quote from above link:

On days when strikes are held Trenitalia guarantees minimum transport services provided as a result of agreements with trade unions and as considered appropriate by the Commission responsible for guaranteeing the implementation of Law 146/1990.

For local transport in particular, essential services have been planned for the peak time-bands (from 06:00 to 09:00 and from 18:00 to 21:00 Mon-Sat). Some long-distance trains are also guaranteed on all days including holidays.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It's so frustrating reading through this, not because there is 2 very clear sides, but because the amount of times I see the word DRIVER in people's arguments.

Currently this has nothing to do with that grade and ASLEF, when they ballot and join in they should be added to the discussion.

But for now, please can we all base our discussions around those that HAVE balloted such as conductors, NR staff and the like.

Posting about £50k earnings has nothing to do with these grades personal finances, and especially given that money is just 1 aspect of these strikes. Arguably the lowest or the reasons.

I would be very sad to lose station staff given the number of passenger assists that are seen on my routes, some days I see up to 10-12 on the WCML. Just because you don't use/require them personally does not mean they are unnecessary to the running or access of the network for others.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder when the first Government statement in response to the decision reached with those balloted will be forthcoming?

 

[yorkie]

It's so frustrating reading through this, not because there is 2 very clear sides, but because the amount of times I see the word DRIVER in people's arguments.

Currently this has nothing to do with that grade and ASLEF, when they ballot and join in they should be added to the discussion.

But for now, please can we all base our discussions around those that HAVE balloted such as conductors, NR staff and the like.

Posting about £50k earnings has nothing to do with these grades personal finances, and especially given that money is just 1 aspect of these strikes. Arguably the lowest or the reasons.

I would be very sad to lose station staff given the number of passenger assists that are seen on my routes, some days I see up to 10-12 on the WCML. Just because you don't use/require them personally does not mean they are unnecessary to the running or access of the network for others.

Which posts are you disagreeing with exactly?

 

[AlterEgo]

As far as I can tell both sides won. The train manager's kept their jobs and apparently received pay increases and the government reduced the risk of strike action from the guard critically damaging the service and a key commuter line.

No, the RMT lost as their main ask wasn’t fulfilled, and their members lost something like a full month of pay during the strikes. The government won that battle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Indeed. But none of them were fired, in fact from my reading here, numbers are up and they are paid more. The RMT lost a position of principle and some of their influence, neither of which I care about, but I don't see how the train managers lost out from it.

Maybe I missed something?

The “guard”’s ability to cause future disruption by stopping the job through strikes was fatally weakened. Southern (backed financially by the govt) did not want to fire the staff, they wanted to re-grade them and change their roles and responsibilities.

 

[142blue]

It was the most boring and worrying time of my 19 Year Railway Career

Nail on head and first time I've looked at external employment too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

For context we as a small team (was 10, now 8) have lost the equivalent of two full time employees through retirement or severance and not replaced. Another leaves later this year, unlikely to recruit for this too.

Still doing the same hours for our office, solely reliant on overtime every week, rest day working and moving off booked shifts each day.

Same hours, same customer level but a 20% reduction in staffing and we all help out.

 

[Bantamzen]

- create an additional tax rate for those who received furlough assistance from the government

Wait? You want to further tax people who were unable to work, and many of whom took a 20% pay cut to fund your bumper pay rise? Wow, I literally have no more words....

Edit: No that was a lie, here's some more. How about we also create a tax for worker of industries that the government propped up during the pandemic, like say the railways!!

 

[DelayRepay]

As a lifelong Trade Union member, I fully support the RMT's right to strike, and they have a clear mandate following the ballots.

However, I think they're entering a fight that they cannot win. I just cannot see any scenario where the government agrees to pay increases. The economic and political effect of a strike just won't be big enough to force the government to roll over. I know not everyone can work from home, but a large number of people can now. And others will find alternative means of travel. The government may even calculate that the strike is beneficial in terms of the wages saved on strike days.

So, fully supporting their right to do so, I think the RMT membership are about to commit a huge act of self-harm.

 

[142blue]

So, fully supporting their right to do so, I think the RMT membership are about to commit a huge act of self-harm.

And I agree from the same perspective, acting far too quickly. However dialogue now needs to be entered into

 

[Bluejays]

I could do without the social interaction of an awkward ticket office refusing to sell me what I want; sadly some ticket office staff have done their very best to put people off using ticket offices over the years, and that is the harsh reality. I wish it wasn't so. But the reality is I am now able to buy tickets and obtain my choice of reservation much more easily and efficiently than when I had to go to a ticket office, when it was a lottery as to whether you got someone who would give good service or not. There are some interactions at ticket offices I will never forget, and all for the wrong reasons, sadly.

I'm all for keeping stations staffed but the idea that ticket offices should exist for the reason of providing social interaction to people is absurd.

Ticket offices aren't dying off because bad staff have gradually driven all their customers away. They're dying off because of e-tickets as you are well aware.

 

[142blue]

Ticket offices aren't dying off because bad staff have gradually driven all their customers away. They're dying off because of e-tickets as you are well aware.

From experience my day is a split of sales, information such as platforms, connections, arrival times, unreserved carriages, how much to upgrade etc. Then there's a fair amount of ticket collections usually from company bookings or where the customer has used Apple pay, PayPal etc.
Every day we see issues with tickets booked online, wrong date, wrong direction, the company split the ticket but no other train now calls at the splitting point or it goes a different route. Emails not received, pdfs that won't open, apps that don't download the mobile ticket or the Railcard.
So we are a bit of all things to all people, sales, information, after care, resolutions, refund points, supporting during disruption etc
I've seen that change over the last few years but I'm ok and I'll adapt my job to suit the needs of our customers.
We still do quite a bit of on the day travel and future bookings too but it's not like it was and the peak times have now shifted.
We have discussed about why we can't retail local bus / tram tickets, do upgrades to concessionary passes, offer a left luggage facility and much more to keep us relevant.

I just feel really sad about the industry right now especially for customers dealing with fare increases, reduced timetables, cancellations and delays especially on Sundays. I was discussing with colleagues how Sunday working is just mentally draining, every week trains cancelled, can't book seats on the next one, can't keep families sat together. Constantly apologizing knowing that this one experience could put this person off rail travel again and trying to do your best to look after people and get them home.
Last week I was approached by someone who was told to get to London as they had a dying relative who won't see the day out and I'm telling them due to cancellations it's an hour for another train. A parent travelling three stops on a local service to take their kids back, they usually hand them over, cross platforms and travel back on the next service which runs hourly. On this occasion they had a train home three hours later. They walked out and got the bus.
I totally empathize with these people but this is a snapshot of what we do in retail and a snapshot of the industry on just one day alone.

 

[Snow1964]

As a lifelong Trade Union member, I fully support the RMT's right to strike, and they have a clear mandate following the ballots.

However, I think they're entering a fight that they cannot win. I just cannot see any scenario where the government agrees to pay increases. The economic and political effect of a strike just won't be big enough to force the government to roll over. I know not everyone can work from home, but a large number of people can now. And others will find alternative means of travel. The government may even calculate that the strike is beneficial in terms of the wages saved on strike days.

So, fully supporting their right to do so, I think the RMT membership are about to commit a huge act of self-harm.

I totally agree, they have got a ballot mandate, but if they overdo it they will harm themselves.

The Government can’t afford to get into a stagflation spiral (inflation causes big pay rises, which leads to costs going up, so prices go up more to pay for it, which leads to more pay rises etc.)

It also won’t want big pay rises to be seen as acceptable (it will have everyone from NHS to civil service trying to match it)

If they take on private companies they might get somewhere, but if they take on Government bankrolled private companies they are doomed.

The only sensible plan the RMT can do is get disguised increases, complicated multi-component pay revisions for its lower paid grades, things like rolling up rest day working into normal pay. Nothing that will attract headlines of Government gives big pay increases.

If they go all out, will be like miners in 1984, lose years pay, then be out of a job few months later.

 

[Moonshot]

In which case lots of taxpayers will demand massive subsidy cuts.....

Some of which will occur naturally because staff won't be getting paid.

 

[Philip]

It's not all about pay increases; if the government guarantee no compulsory redundancies then that would go a long way to finding a resolution with the unions and workers.

 

[DelayRepay]

It's not all about pay increases; if the government guarantee no compulsory redundancies then that would go a long way to finding a resolution with the unions and workers.

I don't think they will offer such a guarantee. The government are desperate to cut costs, and redundancies are one, relatively easy way of doing so.

And would the RMT members really accept it in lieu of a pay increase, especially given how many of the posts in this thread from railway workers have been highlighting the problems they're facing with rising bills?

If the two sides wanted to, I am sure they could find a compromise. But I sense that neither side is really up for compromising at the moment.

 

[Bluejays]

From experience my day is a split of sales, information such as platforms, connections, arrival times, unreserved carriages, how much to upgrade etc. Then there's a fair amount of ticket collections usually from company bookings or where the customer has used Apple pay, PayPal etc.
Every day we see issues with tickets booked online, wrong date, wrong direction, the company split the ticket but no other train now calls at the splitting point or it goes a different route. Emails not received, pdfs that won't open, apps that don't download the mobile ticket or the Railcard.
So we are a bit of all things to all people, sales, information, after care, resolutions, refund points, supporting during disruption etc
I've seen that change over the last few years but I'm ok and I'll adapt my job to suit the needs of our customers.
We still do quite a bit of on the day travel and future bookings too but it's not like it was and the peak times have now shifted.
We have discussed about why we can't retail local bus / tram tickets, do upgrades to concessionary passes, offer a left luggage facility and much more to keep us relevant.

I just feel really sad about the industry right now especially for customers dealing with fare increases, reduced timetables, cancellations and delays especially on Sundays. I was discussing with colleagues how Sunday working is just mentally draining, every week trains cancelled, can't book seats on the next one, can't keep families sat together. Constantly apologizing knowing that this one experience could put this person off rail travel again and trying to do your best to look after people and get them home.
Last week I was approached by someone who was told to get to London as they had a dying relative who won't see the day out and I'm telling them due to cancellations it's an hour for another train. A parent travelling three stops on a local service to take their kids back, they usually hand them over, cross platforms and travel back on the next service which runs hourly. On this occasion they had a train home three hours later. They walked out and got the bus.
I totally empathize with these people but this is a snapshot of what we do in retail and a snapshot of the industry on just one day alone.

Agree with you about the Sundays, they're an absolute nightmare to work. The lack of support provided on weekends is probably a contributory factor to the deterioration in working conditions that has led some towards voting yes.
For what it's worth, I certainly don't think ticket offices will go completely. Although as you've alluded to in your post the role seems to be changing to a lot more sorting out of problems rather than just selling new tickets. Almost more 'travel centre' than ticket office.

 

[GB]

I feel that there's a key point being overlooked here.

For the sake of argument let's assume (as seems reasonable) there's an acceptance that living costs (gas/electric/petrol/food/internet etc etc) have gone up by c.£3k per annum per household.

If you're on anything up to c.£30-35k per year then (morally at least) there's some justification to a 10% pay claim.

If though (again hypothetically) you're on c.£70k, then I'd doubt very much whether your "cost of living" has increased by £7k. Obviously willing to be corrected on this.

So I'd grudgingly support 10% pay claims for those on c.£30k but "much less so" on anyone earning upwards of £60k

~

Half of that will be national insurance and income tax so you wont be taking home 6-7k extra.

 

[Philip]

Agree with you about the Sundays, they're an absolute nightmare to work. The lack of support provided on weekends is probably a contributory factor to the deterioration in working conditions that has led some towards voting yes.
For what it's worth, I certainly don't think ticket offices will go completely. Although as you've alluded to in your post the role seems to be changing to a lot more sorting out of problems rather than just selling new tickets. Almost more 'travel centre' than ticket office.

It annoys me the way some people on this forum seem to think negatively about the ticket office in general without really knowing what the job is about - as yourself and 142blue say it is a lot more than just tapping a few keys and handing a train ticket over the counter. I wouldn't say we're underpaid but the job is a lot more complex and testing than some seem to suggest and I think our salaries reflects this.

 

[Fokx]

It annoys me the way some people on this forum seem to think negatively about the ticket office in general without really knowing what the job is about - as yourself and 142blue say it is a lot more than just tapping a few keys and handing a train ticket over the counter. I wouldn't say we're underpaid but the job is a lot more complex and testing than some seem to suggest, particularly at the busier stations, and I think our salaries reflects this.

Arguably the same with smaller stations too.

There’s one on one of my routes that has just one member of staff. Essentially they start the day by opening up the car park, the waiting rooms, the station toilets. Then they have to set up the booking office, and then they empty the bins, water the plants, clear away any rubbish, sick, broken glass, check for vandalism etc.

Essentially they’re the booking office clerk, the toilet attendant, the cleaner, the gardener, the tourist information centre, the refuge worker and station manager all in one