Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[43066]

Ain't it funny how certain website members seem to assume that all OAP are readers of the Daily Mail...

And that all TU members must be staunch Labour supporters

 

[Dai Corner]

Just as with any specialised industry, once you’ve been working in it for a few years it would get harder. A mate of mine is an airline pilot on £100k+, he was furloughed and worried about his future and realised he’d have to start again from scratch if he left that industry. So would my other friend who is a doctor (albeit clearly the doctor has a higher level of formal qualifications - but that’s often no substitute for experience).

I think you underestimate the diversity of people in the driver grade these days. Personally I earned more in a previous professional career and I’m reasonably confident that if I was determined enough I could get back into it in some format, yes (not that I’d want to). Many others in the job were previously self employed - if you’re a former tradesman you could pick that up again and earn more than many train drivers earn.

Also many in the railway industry are of an age and stage of life where they genuinely could give up working entirely whenever they want to.

So I’m honestly not entirely sure what point you’re trying to make!

So you're saying some people could leave but they're not? From an employer's point of there's no need to pay more as long as enough are applying for the vacancies.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately the RMT will strike, the Government will ignore them and eventually the RMT will have to give up.

There is very little leverage over the government in the post coronavirus world.

 

[johncrossley]

That sounds very much above inflation, unreasonable and unrealistic, some people outside of the railway must be very greedy to ask for that much... The rail unions are very reasonable, by comparison.

Lots of people get above inflation increases and rail workers have had that in the past. But getting a good pay rise in the past doesn't stop them wanting more and more in the future.

 

[DA1]

Was that Tanners Hill Junction?

Quite possibly. Absolute nightmare but anyway we’re going off topic now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of people get above inflation increases and rail workers have had that in the past. But getting a good pay rise in the past doesn't stop them wanting more and more in the future.

In the end nobody would say "no" to a pay rise, but few (in industry as a whole) would strike over one, particularly when they knew the poor financial state of their employer.

 

[43066]

So you're saying some people could leave but they're not? From an employer's point of there's no need to pay more as long as enough are applying for the vacancies.

If this things carry on as they are, yes, I can absolutely see people leaving the industry. Many are actively talking about it. People will also move to other TOCs, freight, OA if their Ts and Cs overtake TOCs so there will still be upward pressure on wages.

Remember training up a productive train driver from scratch is about the same length of training as an airline pilot, so maybe just maybe there’s something actually to the job… Despite how the railway enthusiasts on here seem think we’re all thick lever monkeys.

(And remember this dispute IS NOT ABOUT DRIVERS!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember training up a productive train driver from scratch is about the same length of training as an airline pilot, so maybe just maybe there’s something actually to the job… Despite how the railway enthusiasts on here seem think we’re all thick lever monkeys.

For clarity, the view that it isn't practical at present for a large pay rise to be given to traincrew doesn't mean we look down on traincrew or think they are "lever monkeys". I think people in most industries are going to get very poor pay rises this year.

 

[43066]

Quite possibly. Absolute nightmare but anyway we’re going off topic now.

We have an ESR at the moment that changes according to the temperature (if you can believe that).

It does seem like NR have taken their eye off the ball with maintenance which I suppose is vaguely on topic for the context of this thread!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the end nobody would say "no" to a pay rise, but few (in industry as a whole) would strike over one, particularly when they knew the poor financial state of their employer.

That begs the question of the employer being in such a stated poor financial state that insolvency followed on as it is the case that trading when insolvent is an offence in law.

 

[the sniper]

OK, to put it another way, is there a problem with people leaving the industry after finding jobs with better pay and T&Cs?

A relatively small exodus of signallers, drivers and various maintenance/engineering grades in particular can lead to far more disruption to the public over time than this industrial action will. At the very least, it'd be very costly to replace people leaving, if it is manageable. That's a big if, there are various threads running at the moment querying how so much disruption is being caused by staff shortages... But at least you'd agreed with that in principle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That begs the question of the employer being in such a stated poor financial state that insolvency followed on as it is the case that trading when insolvent is an offence in law.

It's perfectly possible, indeed quite common, for a business to be solvent at the current levels of pay but unable to afford any pay rises.

 

[43066]

For clarity, the view that it isn't practical at present for a large pay rise to be given to traincrew doesn't mean we look down on traincrew or think they are "lever monkeys". I think people in most industries are going to get very poor pay rises this year.

Thanks for confirming that. Albeit I’ve never detected even a hint of that kind of attitude from your posts, which are measured and sensible on this, as with most subjects .

Sadly I can’t say the same for certain other contributors, many of whom are represented on this thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A relatively small exodus of signallers, drivers and various maintenance/engineering grades in particular can lead to far more disruption to the public over time than this industrial action will. At the very least, it'd be very costly to replace people leaving, if it is manageable. That's a big if, there are various threads running at the moment querying how so much disruption is being caused by staff shortages...

I think other than poor management and the effects of COVID resulting in a training backlog that the railway won't have any issues replacing people. There are huge numbers of applicants for each role.

 

[geoffk]

The timing is unfortunate as the Sue Gray report on Downing Street parties is apparently due out tomorrow. I would think the Government will find the ballot result a most welcome distraction! They will almost certainly put Labour on the spot by asking whether they support strike action.

 

[Dai Corner]

Thanks for confirming that. Albeit I’ve never detected even a hint of that kind of attitude from your posts, which are measured and sensible on this, as with most subjects .

Sadly I can’t say the same for certain other contributors, many of whom are represented on this thread.

If you mean me, I haven't sought to give that impression, or singled out drivers or any other role.

FWIW I worked in a middle income, public sector job for the last 12 years before retiring, partly due to ill health and partly due to most of the money available for pay increases going to the lower paid.

 

[Egg Centric]

I just hope when the hard working railway staff who voted for this - if it goes ahead in its full form - see its final results they remember it was the RMT that instigated it.

 

[43066]

If you mean me, I haven't sought to give that impression, or singled out drivers or any other role.

For the record I didn’t mean you.

Of course it’s fine to debate these points - that’s the whole point of the forum - it’s just obvious when there’s a particular agenda driving it. I’m sure you can identify what I’m talking about if you read through the thread.

 

[the sniper]

I think other than poor management and the effects of COVID resulting in a training backlog that the railway won't have any issues replacing people. There are huge numbers of applicants for each role.

But if we're working on the basis that the railway should be treated in line with public sector standards at best and should be for a very long time, the railway will no longer be the land of riches that it is currently perceived to be. Given that we're also told here that all the attractive T&Cs should be thrown out of the window, the jobs offered would be very different from the ones that exist today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if we're working on the basis that the railway should be treated in line with public sector standards at best and should be for a very long time, the railway will no longer be the land of riches that it is currently perceived to be. Given that we're also told here that all the attractive T&Cs should be thrown out of the window, the jobs offered would be very different from the ones that exist today.

I still think you'd get plenty of takers. Maybe one or two per position instead of tens or twenties, but you'd still get them. People wanted to work on the railway when it was very much a "working class" job in terms of the pay offered. My Grandad was an Edge Hill based WCML driver and he wasn't on riches - it was liveable, but they weren't posh. Not all staff are on riches of course, but it's comparatively well paid to other roles other than very skewed ones like IT and senior management.

 

[43066]

FWIW I worked in a middle income, public sector job for the last 12 years before retiring, partly due to ill health and partly due to most of the money available for pay increases going to the lower paid.

I’m very sorry indeed to hear that re. the ill health.

A lot of public sector has had a torrid time of it over the past decade or so from what I understand. I hope you’ve at least come out with a decent pension.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

My Grandad was an Edge Hill based WCML driver and he wasn't on riches - it was liveable, but they weren't posh.

Maybe you should join up .

Of course the labour market has totally changed. Many “working class” jobs have gone, those that remain are actually well paid these days. The traditional “middle class” jobs are still there - along with some new ones (IT) but many people end up not breaking into them, largely because far too many go to university and degrees are now worth much less, so end up very under employed compared to their qualifications.

I think this perhaps fuels some of the resentment towards people earning decent money (and standing up for themselves) in “traditional” working class jobs. Off topic but vaguely relevant.


Right, that’s enough from me for tonight!

 

[Dai Corner]

I’m very sorry indeed to hear that re. the ill health.

A lot of public sector has had a torrid time of it over the past decade or so from what I understand. I hope you’ve at least come out with a decent pension.

Thanks.

The pension's not bad, even though I wasn't deemed unhealthy enough to get an enhancement.

Apologies for this personal interruption to an interesting debate. As you were.

 

[the sniper]

People wanted to work on the railway when it was very much a "working class" job in terms of the pay offered. My Grandad was an Edge Hill based WCML driver and he wasn't on riches - it was liveable, but they weren't posh. Not all staff are on riches of course, but it's comparatively well paid to other roles other than very skewed ones like IT and senior management.

BR didn't struggle to recruit staff for much of its existence or rely heavily on working practices that wouldn't be allowed today to keep the job running?

 

[muz379]

That will very much depend on your contract (that is, for most drivers, if your employer tells you to drive rail replacement that's what you'll be driving), unless you are desirous of being sacked. Sympathetic strike action is illegal.

This is all largely academic because it's unlikely much RRB is going to be sought

But if a full garage of drivers refuses the work yes in theory they are in breach of contract and at risk of dismissal . But things work on practicality as well not just black and white legal principles so would the coach/bus companies screw over the rest of their work sacking all their drivers at a time when professional drivers are at an absolute premium ?

OK, to put it another way, is there a problem with people leaving the industry after finding jobs with better pay and T&Cs?

Maybe not from driving , the top signalling grades . But plenty of grades on the railway don't enjoy the same highly attractive T's & C's I've never known so many guards leave not at retirement age some of them for jobs slightly less paid but with better working patterns , I think for some people covid gave them a bit of perspective in their life . Plenty of passenger facing staff are growing increasingly frustrated with the rabid post covid behaviour on a Friday and Saturday night . If you get lots of guards leaving you soon have issues staffing trains in the time it takes to train their replacements , then their replacements when they figure out the issues for themselves . Right now I am as unsure about the prospect of staying in the industry than I ever have been .Wheras pre covid I wouldn't have voluntarily left the industry and I think that is the same for a lot of people .

I still think you'd get plenty of takers. Maybe one or two per position instead of tens or twenties, but you'd still get them. People wanted to work on the railway when it was very much a "working class" job in terms of the pay offered. My Grandad was an Edge Hill based WCML driver and he wasn't on riches - it was liveable, but they weren't posh. Not all staff are on riches of course, but it's comparatively well paid to other roles other than very skewed ones like IT and senior management.

The problem of above average levels of staff leaving at one time isn't replacing them in the long term . It's the shortages caused in the interim . Say someone gives you 6 months notice but it takes 18 months to train their replacements that gives you a shortage for 12 months if you recruit their replacement on the day that the leaver puts their notice in (and this never happens for many reasons) . Of course the 18 month is just passed out on a few routes the person leaving might have had a full route and traction card therefore it's more like 2 years to fully replace them .

 

[Starmill]

I still think you'd get plenty of takers. Maybe one or two per position instead of tens or twenties, but you'd still get them. People wanted to work on the railway when it was very much a "working class" job in terms of the pay offered. My Grandad was an Edge Hill based WCML driver and he wasn't on riches - it was liveable, but they weren't posh. Not all staff are on riches of course, but it's comparatively well paid to other roles other than very skewed ones like IT and senior management.

Quite a lot of BR's custom and practice, in particular with regards to safety, wouldn't be tolerated now. And that much at least is all to the good. Similar applies in the private construction sector.

 

[Wolfie]

Well said! OK to Clap but not OK to get a pay rise that equals the cost of living...Nothing More just RPI.

How many people are getting RPI? Very few if any. Do you think that they will pay more tax to give you that? Like hell they will.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Indeed but without NR key operating and safety critical staff doesn't matter what the TOCs staff vote. RMT can play it smart pull out signallers, ECRO's, signal techs and you ain't got a railway. Just put a levy on all those who are unable to work and they could run it for weeks if the staff are up for it. If NR don't explain the reality to DfT and get space to negotiate then the outcome for our industry looks grim.

DfT are irrelevant. HMT are who you have to convince and you have pretty much no chance. Having worked in Whitehall for way over 30 years my expectation of the current government is that they will go full out on RMT. I expect new legislation within a couple of months.

 

[High Dyke]

As far as I can tell, the narrative has already been written that this is all about pay. It is not.

I work as a signalman; the three areas that I sign all have known, reported faults and some form of degraded working. Every single shift, degraded working is in place. Reducing the number of maintenance staff, cutting patrols and resorting to a fix on fail method of maintaining the infrastructure WILL have consequences with regards to safety; it will cause delays as I am forced to caution trains and deal with Emergency Speed Restrictions due to the infrastructure falling to pieces.

This is about more than just pay.

And that is just one particular area. Not everywhere is the same, but any reductions in maintenance staff would only increase speed restrictions or degraded working for signallers.

I can't blame anyone for asking for a pay rise. Nobody would ever say no to one. The thing is, things are so tight at the moment that it might come down to "so, who do we lay off so we can pay the remaining few more", or "which branch lines do we close to fund higher pay for InterCity drivers and guards", or "OK, drivers can have 10%, but on the condition of DOO".

Don't worry. Network Rail are already hoping to reduce maintenance staff by 2,500 people.

For my own part. I've been a trade union member for over thirty years, coincidentally in the same union that is at the centre of this industrial dispute. I don't always agree with the way the union conducts itself, but at the end of the day I, like many others, are members for their own protection when at work.

In respect of the recent ballot, then I voted NO to strike action, but YES to action short of a strike. That doesn't mean I don't respect those that have voted differently. Nor does it mean I won't take any industrial action. However, personally i feel that action short of a strike can be more effective.

Yes, I get dissolusioned with the union leadership; they get carried away with bombastic rhetoric at times, but I'm more dissolusioned with management who seem to think that they can dress up "modernisation" as a way to reduce staff numbers, cut maintenance work or move it to a risk-based concept; Increase the risk to workers health and well-being by introducing more night working or introduce changes to safety critical working practices, but not have the correct resources in place when new methods of working are implemented.

 

[jon0844]

How many people are getting RPI? Very few if any. Do you think that they will pay more tax to give you that? Like hell they will.

Whatever happened to Boris saying about how great our economy would be, how people would all be enjoying higher wages and a better quality of life?

Instead, we're being asked to pay more for essentials we mostly can't avoid, and being told there's no money for pay increases.

It's so much a race to the bottom and if the likes of the RMT and others lose, we all lose. It isn't sufficient to think that if you can't get a pay rise, nobody should - as eventually that will become the standard.

 

[Wolfie]

This is all largely academic because it's unlikely much RRB is going to be sought

But if a full garage of drivers refuses the work yes in theory they are in breach of contract and at risk of dismissal . But things work on practicality as well not just black and white legal principles so would the coach/bus companies screw over the rest of their work sacking all their drivers at a time when professional drivers are at an absolute premium ?

Maybe not from driving , the top signalling grades . But plenty of grades on the railway don't enjoy the same highly attractive T's & C's I've never known so many guards leave not at retirement age some of them for jobs slightly less paid but with better working patterns , I think for some people covid gave them a bit of perspective in their life . Plenty of passenger facing staff are growing increasingly frustrated with the rabid post covid behaviour on a Friday and Saturday night . If you get lots of guards leaving you soon have issues staffing trains in the time it takes to train their replacements , then their replacements when they figure out the issues for themselves . Right now I am as unsure about the prospect of staying in the industry than I ever have been .Wheras pre covid I wouldn't have voluntarily left the industry and I think that is the same for a lot of people .

The problem of above average levels of staff leaving at one time isn't replacing them in the long term . It's the shortages caused in the interim . Say someone gives you 6 months notice but it takes 18 months to train their replacements that gives you a shortage for 12 months if you recruit their replacement on the day that the leaver puts their notice in (and this never happens for many reasons) . Of course the 18 month is just passed out on a few routes the person leaving might have had a full route and traction card therefore it's more like 2 years to fully replace them .

I hate to say this, because l actually value having guards on trains, but if lots go l strongly suspect that a DOO revisit is far more likely than major recruitment.

 

[Starmill]

I can't blame anyone for asking for a pay rise. Nobody would ever say no to one. The thing is, things are so tight at the moment that it might come down to "so, who do we lay off so we can pay the remaining few more", or "which branch lines do we close to fund higher pay for InterCity drivers and guards", or "OK, drivers can have 10%, but on the condition of DOO".

This is already happening in effect. ScotRail's May 2022 timetable was designed with fewer train crew in mind than December 2019, partly to save money but also to give them headroom for the 2021 pay award.