Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[baz962]

And that's the problem.

If there was a re-levelling of wages across all industries, what would a "fair" wage for different rail staff look like?

In reality it would look radically worse for management as well as operational staff.

It's hard for the individuals, but why isn't a reset fair in the wider scheme of things?

I get the arguement that this shouldn't be a race to the bottom, and that pay raises reflecting inflation have a place (in the right economic environment).

But some on here don't seem to realise how grossly overpaid they have been before the pandemic. For them it's not a race to the bottom, but alignment to the mean.

What are you talking about

A semi-skilled manual worker on 50k + a year? Do they all have PhD's , these fabled railway workers (drivers esp).

Have you ever driven a train.

 

[Bow Fell]

This is of course whataboutery at its finest, but I’m intrigued;

Let’s say, the vote was overwhelming action short of a strike, no OT, no 12hrs, no Sunday’s, no RDW.

I expect it would mirror something similar to the current Scotrail dispute, timetable cuts, etc.

What are peoples opinions on that? And if so, what’s the exact root of the problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Money is getting tighter for everyone, I can't really blame union members looking for a wage rise.

I can't blame anyone for asking for a pay rise. Nobody would ever say no to one. The thing is, things are so tight at the moment that it might come down to "so, who do we lay off so we can pay the remaining few more", or "which branch lines do we close to fund higher pay for InterCity drivers and guards", or "OK, drivers can have 10%, but on the condition of DOO".

 

[cf111]

I can't blame anyone for asking for a pay rise. Nobody would ever say no to one. The thing is, things are so tight at the moment that it might come down to "so, who do we lay off so we can pay the remaining few more", or "which branch lines do we close to fund higher pay for InterCity drivers and guards".

Yes I absolutely see your point, it is difficult to see how this might pan out but I think that "here is your 9%" and everyone walking off happily into the sunset is unlikely.

Any strike action will be a massive pain in the backside for me (it already is with Scotrail), but I fundamentally support the right of workers to withdraw their labour, so I just keep buggering on!

 

[Tomp94]

Ain't it funny how certain OAP Daily Mail types are the first to whinge about the bank closing, but cannot wait to see their local train station ticket office close permanently....

 

[Starmill]

Will Hull Trains and Grand Central be able to claim any sort of compensation if they are unable to run any services?

Fortunately I can easily WFH and I don't travel down to London as much as I used to so won't be affected.

They would in general receive a downward adjustment to their station and track access charges without dispute. Whether they were then to mount claims for compensation on top, or if Network Rail or station facility operators might settle with them is another matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ain't it funny how certain OAP Daily Mail types are the first to whinge about the bank closing, but cannot wait to see their local train station ticket office close permanently....

Fundamentally I'm both a taxpayer and a farepayer, and so I fund the railway, alongside many others. I don't find booking offices very useful, and some of them are the opposite of useful (e.g. many Merseyrail ones, and special mention for the muppet at City Thameslink a while back who refused to sell me a perfectly valid off peak single from there to Bedford, about as simple as it gets). I therefore don't want to pay for them to continue to exist other than perhaps at a very small number of major stations. They do not represent good value for money, quite the opposite. Every other means of ticket purchase is to me better (other than the evil m-ticket).

I have not branch banked for 22 years now and don't miss it. Going to the bank (or phoning it) is a waste of my time I could be using for something else.

 

[43066]

Quite possibly, yes.

They’re probably a better judge of that!

Pay in any job doesn’t work like that. It isn’t just about numbers wanting the job, it’s those who can get through the training and do it consistently to the required standard, who are then very difficult to replace and a variety of other factors.

Pay is such an never ending obsession on here (even though that isn’t entirely what this dispute is about), that’s what all of these threads default back to. Just look at the comments above “train drivers don’t have PhDs blah blah blah”.

It’s snobbery and good old fashioned jealousy, pure and simple. It’s always bubbling away just under the surface on here, and it’s utterly pathetic.

 

[Efini92]

A semi-skilled manual worker on 50k + a year? Do they all have PhD's , these fabled railway workers (drivers esp).

I know a train driver who has a PHD. Nice bloke.

 

[the sniper]

Pretty much anyone who has a job can always say they want more money and/or better working conditions, so will never be satisfied. If you earn £50K you want £60K. If you earn £100K you want £150K. If you are a Premier League footballer on £10 million a year you want £15 million.

That sounds very much above inflation, unreasonable and unrealistic, some people outside of the railway must be very greedy to ask for that much... The rail unions are very reasonable, by comparison.

 

[baz962]

I know a train driver who has a PHD. Nice bloke.

I know a few.

 

[Starmill]

I have not branch banked for 22 years now and don't miss it. Going to the bank (or phoning it) is a waste of my time I could be using for something else.

And of course if the bank spent money on branches that would be less money they were spending on something that you might actually want, such as developing a faster, more secure app, having quicker responses to live chat for customer services, or paying more attractive rates on deposits. It's the same with the railway. They could pay for more useful things.

 

[43066]

I know a few.

Indeed. The job is a great leveller - one of the best things about it in my view.

 

[Dai Corner]

They’re probably a better judge of that!

Pay in any job doesn’t work like that. It isn’t just about numbers wanting the job, it’s those who can get through the training and do it consistently to the required standard, who are then very difficult to replace and a variety of other factors.

Pay is such an never ending obsession on here (even though that isn’t entirely what this dispute is about), that’s what all of these threads default back to. Just look at the comments above “train drivers don’t have PhDs blah blah blah”.

It’s snobbery and good old fashioned jealousy, pure and simple. It’s always bubbling away just under the surface on here, and it’s utterly pathetic.

OK, to put it another way, is there a problem with people leaving the industry after finding jobs with better pay and T&Cs?

 

[baz962]

OK, to put it another way, is there a problem with people leaving the industry after finding jobs with better pay and T&Cs?

Probably not . But there will be if it keeps on being no rises.

 

[Dai Corner]

Probably not . But there will be if it keeps on being no rises.

That would be the time for employers to improve pay and T&Cs. If some of the unhappy railwaymen/women left they'd be doing themselves and their former colleagues a favour.

 

[geoffk]

Freight not going anywhere might get the governments notice - but it's only what 10%?

But that 10% includes biomass to power stations and this at a time when energy bills are going through the roof. The Govt. is likely to take notice of the lights going out!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that 10% includes biomass to power stations and this at a time when energy bills are going through the roof. The Govt. is likely to take notice of the lights going out!

Yep, Drax is supplied "just in time" by rail - though I suppose they may be able to get the Army to run an emergency lorry operation to keep it going.

 

[the sniper]

This could do the railway serious damage, and is likely to be far more harmful for staff than accepting bad pay rises for a few years until things recover (as people in all manner of industries will).

But aren't public sector workers just expected accept bad pay rises forever, under the Tories? That would seem to be one of the major issues...

And at what point will the railway have recovered sufficiently for this to happen?

 

[johncrossley]

Fundamentally I'm both a taxpayer and a farepayer, and so I fund the railway, alongside many others. I don't find booking offices very useful, and some of them are the opposite of useful (e.g. many Merseyrail ones, and special mention for the muppet at City Thameslink a while back who refused to sell me a perfectly valid off peak single from there to Bedford, about as simple as it gets). I therefore don't want to pay for them to continue to exist other than perhaps at a very small number of major stations. They do not represent good value for money, quite the opposite. Every other means of ticket purchase is to me better (other than the evil m-ticket).

I have not branch banked for 22 years now and don't miss it. Going to the bank (or phoning it) is a waste of my time I could be using for something else.

I think almost all people who use ticket offices are perfectly capable of buying the ticket at a machine, unless they have a specific disability and in those cases the railway makes allowances. And what if their local station has not had a ticket office for decades or has never had one? Do people in these areas avoid the train because there is no ticket office? Of course not.

 

[Dai Corner]

But that 10% includes biomass to power stations and this at a time when energy bills are going through the roof. The Govt. is likely to take notice of the lights going out!

I expect we could get away without burning biomass during the summer. The RMT have picked the wrong time for the dispute if they were hoping that would have any impact.

 

[43066]

OK, to put it another way, is there a problem with people leaving the industry after finding jobs with better pay and T&Cs?

Just as with any specialised industry, once you’ve been working in it for a few years it would get harder. A mate of mine is an airline pilot on £100k+, he was furloughed and worried about his future and realised he’d have to start again from scratch if he left that industry. So would my other friend who is a doctor (albeit clearly the doctor has a higher level of formal qualifications - but that’s often no substitute for experience).

I think you underestimate the diversity of people in the driver grade these days. Personally I earned more in a previous professional career and I’m reasonably confident that if I was determined enough I could get back into it in some format, yes (not that I’d want to). Many others in the job were previously self employed - if you’re a former tradesman you could pick that up again and earn more than many train drivers earn, especially at the moment. Also a smattering of ex IT professionals, ex teachers (and some teachers can earn good money).

Also many in the railway industry are of an age and stage of life where they genuinely could give up working entirely whenever they want to.

So I’m honestly not entirely sure what point you’re trying to make!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But aren't public sector workers just expected accept bad pay rises forever, under the Tories? That would seem to be one of the major issues...

The best way to deal with that is to get rid of the Tories. At least things are looking the right way for that in the form of a progressive coalition to beat them (finally!)

And at what point will the railway have recovered?

Who knows?

I think almost all people who use ticket offices are perfectly capable of buying the ticket at a machine, unless they have a specific disability and in those cases the railway makes allowances. And what if their local station has not had a ticket office for decades or has never had one? Do people in these areas avoid the train because there is no ticket office? Of course not.

Indeed. Most people are using e-tickets now anyway, except on those foolish parts of the railway that persist in not accepting them. And it's not a choice between a row of five ticket windows at MKC (say) and no staff, you could instead have one member of staff providing assistance at the TVMs for those who don't know what to do. Give a man a fish, as it were...

 

[Starmill]

That will very much depend on your contract (that is, for most drivers, if your employer tells you to drive rail replacement that's what you'll be driving), unless you are desirous of being sacked. Sympathetic strike action is illegal.

Indeed very true but by the same token any bus company is free not to tender for the work. As a large proportion of rail replacement is now subcontracted to small operations or in some cases even to self employed bus drivers who own their own bus, it's unlikely that large numbers of buses will be found.

In any case, the appetite to pay for rail replacement buses on strike days will be very limited. They may operate on a handful of routes only, or only on stand by.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ain't it funny how certain OAP Daily Mail types are the first to whinge about the bank closing, but cannot wait to see their local train station ticket office close permanently....

Ain't it funny how certain website members seem to assume that all OAP are readers of the Daily Mail...

 

[cambsy]

I see the railway workers, and RMT, not getting what they want, as the government wont back down, and there’s no bottomless pit of money to pay for it all, and in the end they will end up,just doing only harm to the railways, and shooting themselves very badly in the foot. Im not against the workers asking for more money, but they will end up with it backfiring, and quite possibly destroying their industry, look at what happened after the Miners strikes, do the rail way workers want the same? as they say better the devil you know.

 

[kristiang85]

There has been many posts on here, so sorry if I repeat points already made as I haven't had time to look through, but my opinion is thus:

What will the strikes achieve? If the RMT get what they want, then the government will likely have no choice but to raise the fares to the maximum they can, which could well be 10% given CPI projections. That in itself will push passengers away (especially as hybrid working becomes the norm- I certainly will cut down my trips if this happens, even though I like going into the office - and I know many colleagues will have the same opinion), which will give the goverment a perfect excuse to engage in a managed decline of many services and cut jobs.

If the unions don't get what they want, then strikes will likely be prolonged and the same result will happen.

I can only see job cuts and a reduced quality of service coming out of this. The government doesn't give a damn about the railways it seems; if it's costing them money, they will cut it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed very true but by the same token any bus company is free not to tender for the work.

Yes, true.

As a large proportion of rail replacement is now subcontracted to small operations or in some cases even to self employed bus drivers who own their own bus, it's unlikely that large numbers of buses will be found.

It's mostly small to medium operators, and the management of those, having had a bad time of things over COVID, are unlikely to look a gift horse in the mouth.

In any case, the appetite to pay for rail replacement buses on strike days will be very limited. They may operate on a handful of routes only, or only on stand by.

To be fair there generally aren't RRBs on strike days, so there probably won't be this time either.

 

[baz962]

Ain't it funny how certain website members seem to assume that all OAP are readers of the Daily Mail...

To be fair , they said certain OAP types and not all OAP's.

 

[Bow Fell]

This is of course whataboutery at its finest, but I’m intrigued;

Let’s say, the vote was overwhelming action short of a strike, no OT, no 12hrs, no Sunday’s, no RDW.

I expect it would mirror something similar to the current Scotrail dispute, timetable cuts, etc.

What are peoples opinions on that? And if so, what’s the exact root of the problem?

To add some context to the post;

No exaggeration at all, anyone who’s worked on the railway, will back it up. But an example on the signalling side, is the job gets covered at any cost. Sometimes, you couldn’t make it up, but if you benefit from it (and I’ve also benefitted from it, then why not?! Fill your boots)

But some people forget just how flexible rail staff are (especially over the past 2 years) don’t get me wrong, it’s not just out the goodness of our hearts, but there is pride is keeping the job moving, the monetary incentive is nice too!

For example; Some real rostering scenarios.

“Can you work your rest day Monday day turn and we’ll cover your Sunday night and still get paid?”

“Can you work these extra rest days and we’ll give you a hidden day” Then your booked job, is then covered by someone that is RDW themselves!

You can’t tell me that’s sustainable in the slightest, but the job has to be covered and people will do anything so that it does, there’s a lot (and I mean a lot) of goodwill from rail staff, in being flexible.

I know that this is slightly off topic from strike action, but please for those of you lambasting those who voted yes from strike action, it really is a last resort, the treatment recently can’t go on, and while it’s even from the inside seeing the industry do this, I really hope that this gets sorted.

This is something that will hurt both sides (and I’m not talking about the directors, stakeholders etc, couldn’t care less about them) I’m talking about the only two things that matter, the staff, and the passengers, let’s come together and support each other, please.