Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[matacaster]

To you your post seems reasonable. To others it might well smack of "I'm alright Jack....."

Please bear in mind that any group of workers aiming for a much higher rise than others in a less fortunate bargaining position are doing exactly the same as"im alright Jack!". On the other hand if everybody got a rise similar to inflation, they'd be no better off as that stokes.... Inflation!

 

[Gems]

This topic will be flogged to death. Let's see what happens.
There is little appetite for all out strikes. Work to rule is more appealing to many because many won't cover overtime anyway. As usual it will be the few who were prepared to work over who will be expected to make the sacrifices for the many.
Myself I will do what suits me. With unions and bosses it feels like " Idiots to the left of me. Fools to the right"

 

[A0]

Are people better off for it in terms of their well-being? I would say not; doing everything 'online' may be more convenient for a lot of people and it does have its place, but gradually continuing to reduce human interaction and making transactions more robotic is unlikely to improve a lot of people's mental health.

But I don't interact with a ticket office person for the benefit of my mental health - for that I talk to my family or friends, go out for a meal, down the pub or whatever else.

When I go to a station I want to buy a ticket, get on a train and travel - and if a machine or better still booking at home reduces the time needed to achieve that, then so much the better.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Metrolink indeed does seem to have an ASB issue, but I think the Merseyrail "rent-a-thug" approach would have more effect on the kinds of people causing it than booking offices remote from the platforms (as per most of Merseyrail) or guards who would hide in the cab for their own safety.

When I was last in Manchester at Victoria station, on the Metrolink platforms were quite a number of "burly" Metrolink staff on the tram platforms. I cannot recall what title was on the rear of their jackets, but six of them boarded a tram bound for Rochdale via Oldham.

 

[A0]

Yes I could do it on my phone, yes it might be easier, but then I've got to make sure it's downloaded correctly, that they've sent the correct ticket to start with, that I have enough charge on my phone etc.

BIB - but you leave home with your keys and wallet. If you drive a car you set off with sufficient fuel in the tank or plan to replenish it en route - so why then is ensuring your phone has sufficient charge at the beginning of the day or carrying a cable / battery pack that difficult ? Virtually all new smart phones are capable of seeing a day without recourse to charging - clearly if you're spending the day watching Youtube or streaming podcasts that battery life shortens, but if you're doing those things you'll definitely make provision to recharge.

 

[bramling]

Are people better off for it in terms of their well-being? I would say not; doing everything 'online' may be more convenient for a lot of people and it does have its place, but gradually continuing to reduce human interaction and making transactions more robotic is unlikely to improve a lot of people's mental health.

Two years of strained human interaction has already led to a pretty unpleasant atmosphere.

 

[baz962]

OK - but are you going to say that travelling on a local service from Hertford North to Moorgate - which is DOO - is fundamentally less safe or more unpleasant than taking a local service from Rochester or Gravesend to Charing Cross ?

Not necessarily less safe , but definitely more unpleasant. I travel on both Thameslink doo and EMR . I see way more anti social behaviour on Thameslink , including rolling joints , feet on seats , playing loud music and all sorts. Doesn't bother me too much as I'm not easily intimidated. Can see why older people and lone women would not be comfortable though.

 

[Mat17]

BIB - but you leave home with your keys and wallet. If you drive a car you set off with sufficient fuel in the tank or plan to replenish it en route - so why then is ensuring your phone has sufficient charge at the beginning of the day or carrying a cable / battery pack that difficult ? Virtually all new smart phones are capable of seeing a day without recourse to charging - clearly if you're spending the day watching Youtube or streaming podcasts that battery life shortens, but if you're doing those things you'll definitely make provision to recharge.

I've not had a phone that long. It hasn't become engrained. I very often go out without it. I do forget to charge it because I haven't thought of it as an essential piece of equipment.

Not like house keys, coat and some money jangling around in one of my pockets somewhere.

 

[bramling]

But I don't interact with a ticket office person for the benefit of my mental health - for that I talk to my family or friends, go out for a meal, down the pub or whatever else.

When I go to a station I want to buy a ticket, get on a train and travel - and if a machine or better still booking at home reduces the time needed to achieve that, then so much the better.

I think you will find even as a user of machines that you indirectly benefit from booking offices. A real nuisance is when an irregular user turns up and has to negotiate a machine, and duly blocks that machine for several minutes whilst they work out how to use it and what ticket to buy. Booking offices tend to cater for that type of user, keeping the machines free for others.

London Underground can be pretty painful now. The theory is that staff are on hand to assist. In practice it’s quite clear that what you get in practice is chaos.

 

[Wolfie]

I think you will find even as a user of machines that you indirectly benefit from booking offices. A real nuisance is when an irregular user turns up and has to negotiate a machine, and duly blocks that machine for several minutes whilst they work out how to use it and what ticket to buy. Booking offices tend to cater for that type of user, keeping the machines free for others.

London Underground can be pretty painful now. The theory is that staff are on hand to assist. In practice it’s quite clear that what you get in practice is chaos.

Re your last para Euston on a Saturday morning is utter pandemonium.

 

[Mat17]

A real nuisance is when an irregular user turns up and has to negotiate a machine, and duly blocks that machine for several minutes whilst they work out how to use it and what ticket to buy. Booking offices tend to cater for that type of user, keeping the machines free for others.

That sounds a lot like me to be fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you will find even as a user of machines that you indirectly benefit from booking offices. A real nuisance is when an irregular user turns up and has to negotiate a machine, and duly blocks that machine for several minutes whilst they work out how to use it and what ticket to buy. Booking offices tend to cater for that type of user, keeping the machines free for others.

Rather than get annoyed, why not use your skill to offer to assist them?

London Underground can be pretty painful now. The theory is that staff are on hand to assist. In practice it’s quite clear that what you get in practice is chaos.

What do you need to use a LU ticket machine for? I haven't used one in years. Just tap in and out with your credit or debit card.

 

[A0]

Not necessarily less safe , but definitely more unpleasant. I travel on both Thameslink doo and EMR . I see way more anti social behaviour on Thameslink , including rolling joints , feet on seats , playing loud music and all sorts. Doesn't bother me too much as I'm not easily intimidated. Can see why older people and lone women would not be comfortable though.

And the difference between EMR and TL has much less to do with DOO and far more to do with the stations being served. EMR runs fast from St Pancras to Luton and beyond. TL serves inner London stations like Hendon, West Hampstead and Kentish Town.

You need to compare like for like - so what's your average South Eastern inner suburban service heading to the Medway Towns like?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You need to compare like for like - so what's your average South Eastern inner suburban service heading to the Medway Towns like?

In my (relatively limited) experience they have a very rough feel to them indeed.

 

[A0]

In my (relatively limited) experience they have a very rough feel to them indeed.

Same in my experience - and no nicer than the London Overground services from Watford to Euston serving such delights as Kilburn High Road, Queens Park, Stonebridge Park etc. Or the GA ones coming down through Hackney and Tottenham.

And that's the point - you can't compare the behaviour on long distance, dare I use the term "Inter City" services provided by EMR and compare them to Thameslink and say TL's worse because of the behaviour of other passengers which is due to DOO. You get just as much poor behaviour on non DOO services running through any of the cities.

 

[Dai Corner]

With regards to buying tickets, some of us still like buying paper tickets.

Yes I could do it on my phone, yes it might be easier, but then I've got to make sure it's downloaded correctly, that they've sent the correct ticket to start with, that I have enough charge on my phone etc.

A paper ticket is so much easier, it is what it is. Buy it, stick it in your pocket and your good to go for the rest of the day, no need to keep an eye on its battery level or whether the tech will say no.

I fear loss of booking offices etc. Will just see me use the car more.

Won't you hate making sure you have enough fuel in your car, buying tickets from machines in car parks etc?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 May 2022 ==

(Deleted)

 

[jayah]

I wouldn't need to explain the same thing again if some people actually read posts before they reacted by clicking reply and then saying they disagree.

Case in point:



I did not say it was a good or bad thing. I was referring to a system that has been in place for many years, in response to a post saying a 4 day week could decrease productivity. I was never even arguing in favour of a 4 day week in the first place. My argument was a 40 hour week doesn't always see more work get done than a 37.5 hour week, as people get tired and make mistakes, meaning workers don't always achieve more productivity, despite (on paper) having 2.5 hours more to work.

People should not get tired working 7-8hr days with appropriate breaks. It is the shift length that matters.

Cutting the working week from 40-37-35 and even 32 hours as the RMT wanted at one point, reduces productivity each time.

Very few people doing 12hr shifts and 40hr weeks. Of course the rail unions seemed to like a 35hr week, but the hours worked varying between zero and 60, another low productivity high pay variation on the same theme.

 

[mike57]

With regards to buying tickets, some of us still like buying paper tickets.

Yes I could do it on my phone, yes it might be easier, but then I've got to make sure it's downloaded correctly, that they've sent the correct ticket to start with, that I have enough charge on my phone etc.

A paper ticket is so much easier, it is what it is. Buy it, stick it in your pocket and your good to go for the rest of the day, no need to keep an eye on its battery level or whether the tech will say no.

I fear loss of booking offices etc. Will just see me use the car more.

I think if you are organised having your ticket on your phone it is less likely to get lost.

My phone is waterproof, have you ever seen a traditional ticket after being caught out in a downpour?

My railcard is also on my pnone, everything in one place.

Full day out, I carry a small battery pack, or depending on what I am doing a full size several charges pack (which is about the same size as my phone and twice as thick). Nearly all long distance trains and a lot of local trains and buses have USB charging sockets, so if you are watching a video or playing a game plug in before your battery charge drops into the danger zone.

There are no queues at either the ticket office or machine to navigate and allow time for.

Some TOC apps seem better than others, I use Northern, which has proven pretty reliable, and TPE which is flaky, but I do get Nectar points until the end of the month with TPE, so from the 1st June TPE will not be used. I can use the northern app for tickets outside the Northern area.

I am in my mid 60s, yes there are a few people older than me who haven't taken to 'tech' but move forward another 10 years and paper tickets will be consigned to the history book. I dont know anyone amongst friends, family and colleagues who hasn't got a smartphone.

 

[baz962]

And the difference between EMR and TL has much less to do with DOO and far more to do with the stations being served. EMR runs fast from St Pancras to Luton and beyond. TL serves inner London stations like Hendon, West Hampstead and Kentish Town.

You need to compare like for like - so what's your average South Eastern inner suburban service heading to the Medway Towns like?

I see plenty between Luton and Bedford , so no difference.

 

[Mat17]

Won't you hate making sure you have enough fuel in your car, buying tickets from machines in car parks etc?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 May 2022 ==

(Deleted)

I go into the petrol station after filling up and pay in cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I go into the petrol station after filling up and pay in cash.

It utterly, utterly astonishes me that there are so many people who happily use a Web forum who don't do something as simple as card payments, let alone the use of automated systems like ticket machines and pay at pump petrol stations. I simply don't get it.

I know there are people who don't do any form of tech at all - they pay in cash, listen to the radio, read the newspaper and make phone calls on a landline only - but people posting on here who don't is just a bizarre dichotomy.

 

[Dai Corner]

I go into the petrol station after filling up and pay in cash.

So as well as diverting your journey via a petrol station you also have to go the bank to cash a cheque to make sure you have enough on you to pay for the fuel. What a faff!

 

[nedchester]

I've not had a phone that long. It hasn't become engrained. I very often go out without it. I do forget to charge it because I haven't thought of it as an essential piece of equipment.

Not like house keys, coat and some money jangling around in one of my pockets somewhere.

It'll soon be time to 'get with the programme' then! Seriously, many things we do today would be alien to our behaviours of 10/20 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 May 2022 ==

With regards to buying tickets, some of us still like buying paper tickets.

Yes I could do it on my phone, yes it might be easier, but then I've got to make sure it's downloaded correctly, that they've sent the correct ticket to start with, that I have enough charge on my phone etc.

A paper ticket is so much easier, it is what it is. Buy it, stick it in your pocket and your good to go for the rest of the day, no need to keep an eye on its battery level or whether the tech will say no.

I fear loss of booking offices etc. Will just see me use the car more.

You could buy a paper ticket from a TVM then?

Not sure the claim that you'd use the car more just because there's no booking offices left is a valid one!

 

[MikeWM]

I think you will find even as a user of machines that you indirectly benefit from booking offices. A real nuisance is when an irregular user turns up and has to negotiate a machine, and duly blocks that machine for several minutes whilst they work out how to use it and what ticket to buy. Booking offices tend to cater for that type of user, keeping the machines free for others.

London Underground can be pretty painful now. The theory is that staff are on hand to assist. In practice it’s quite clear that what you get in practice is chaos.

And in my experience the staff when they do go to assist passengers having issues with a ticket machine are precisely those who are otherwise manning the gatelines, which is a right pain if you need manual assistance in getting through the gateline for whatever reason and can't get their attention because they're trying to explain how to buy a ticket to someone at a ticket machine. 'Roaming' staff are all very well and good in theory, but it quickly falls down when they are roaming somewhere other than where you need them to be.

 

[Wolfie]

Rather than get annoyed, why not use your skill to offer to assist them?



What do you need to use a LU ticket machine for? I haven't used one in years. Just tap in and out with your credit or debit card.

Re your first point l agree but have been told to mind my own business rather too often.

Re your second point many of those struggling are foreign and/or new to/rarely in London

 

[43066]

So you accept that change has taken place over the years then but that doesn't mean it stops now.

By trying to paint railway staff and unions as resisting change, I think you are being completely disingenuous. The unions don’t resist change per se, but they are concerned with preserving their members job security and earnings.

Fairly obviously closure of ticket offices and DOO is going to lead to destaffing - there’s no other way substantial savings can be made (GTR DOO where guards became OBSs actually INCREASED staff costs). So inevitably the unions will oppose it.

Scanning tickets is another case in point - the unions don’t have a problem with it as a concept, however if their members end up several thousand pounds per year worse off as a result of a change in working practices, they will want that difference to be made up.

Would *you* just accept a change in your working practices making you worse off? Or would you want your union to represent you?

Is there any evidence where ticket offices have closed (e.g. London Underground) or there is DOO (Thameslink GN for many years and also Docklands LR, Manchester Metrolink) that the passenger experience is poorer ?

If we’re being told these changes are “needed” surely the onus is on those suggesting the changes to explain how they will actually improve things? Anyone who thinks fares will go down is living in la la land frankly.

I’ve experienced far more anti social behaviour on true DOO trains, specifically GTR and SE metro where many stations are unmanned when the booking office is closed. A visible on train presence deters this. DLR has a member of staff aboard all trains.

I’d probably agree LO works better as DOO but that’s because it’s similar to LU, stopping constantly with all stations staffed from first to last trains. If we are talking about DOO and closure *to save money* staff aren’t going to be redeployed, they’re likely to be got rid of and simply not replaced. So they won’t enhance the experience one iota…

 

[exbrel]

I think if you are organised having your ticket on your phone it is less likely to get lost.

My phone is waterproof, have you ever seen a traditional ticket after being caught out in a downpour?

My railcard is also on my pnone, everything in one place.

Full day out, I carry a small battery pack, or depending on what I am doing a full size several charges pack (which is about the same size as my phone and twice as thick). Nearly all long distance trains and a lot of local trains and buses have USB charging sockets, so if you are watching a video or playing a game plug in before your battery charge drops into the danger zone.

There are no queues at either the ticket office or machine to navigate and allow time for.

Some TOC apps seem better than others, I use Northern, which has proven pretty reliable, and TPE which is flaky, but I do get Nectar points until the end of the month with TPE, so from the 1st June TPE will not be used. I can use the northern app for tickets outside the Northern area.

I am in my mid 60s, yes there are a few people older than me who haven't taken to 'tech' but move forward another 10 years and paper tickets will be consigned to the history book. I dont know anyone amongst friends, family and colleagues who hasn't got a smartphone.

its alright having a smartphone, but some of us are not smart enough to use it for everything...

 

[Annetts key]

Bar possibly a few branch lines (e.g. the Parliamentary ones) no, they indeed won't, but the "nuclear option" in the case of the railway that is comparable with the miners is "right, DOO it is" and wait for traincrew to be unable to afford to strike any longer.

Booking offices will be easier to close - yes, there'd be strikes, but hardly anybody would notice because hardly any tickets are sold that way now. They could even just close them with immediate effect and put the staff on gardening leave for the consultation period plus notice.

Funny that. At Bristol Temple Meads they have opened a temporary booking office while the renovate the normal booking office. Which would be a strange thing to do if hardly any tickets were sold using this method…

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It utterly, utterly astonishes me that there are so many people who happily use a Web forum who don't do something as simple as card payments, let alone the use of automated systems like ticket machines and pay at pump petrol stations. I simply don't get it.

I know there are people who don't do any form of tech at all - they pay in cash, listen to the radio, read the newspaper and make phone calls on a landline only - but people posting on here who don't is just a bizarre dichotomy.

That is what is so good about democracy. The freedom to choose.

On the other side of the coin, there are those users of all modern technology who still call the airport at Manchester by the arcane name of Ringway Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is what is so good about democracy. The freedom to choose.

You don't have a right to choose without consequences, though. Try booking a Ryanair flight with cash. Some choices will exclude one from some other choices. As a wildly different example, one can go to Iran on holiday, but doing so excludes one from travel to the US without a visa, and possibly at all.