Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[the sniper]

It's not a question of not wanting people to improve their lot, it's the timing.

The question is, how long do you wait? How many years of loses do you take on the chin? This is year three with little fuss up to this point. If you fall too far behind due to huge inflation you will never regain those loses. Few here agreed with the pay rises or any industrial action pre-Covid when the railway was booming, "I haven't had a pay rise for 10 years", was always peddled out at the merest hint of either. I think many people would want no pay rises or far below inflation figures for the foreseeable future (5 years, 10 years?) for rail staff, hopelessly thinking it'll bring down fares, pure jealousy or just ideological opposition to an organised workforce achieving anything of value...

 

[Goldfish62]

It's time other industries fought to have the same

It's not for want of trying. Why, for example, is the RMT noticeably less successful in the bus industry or maritime?

The rail unions have no special powers. They're small unions punching well above their weight by taking full advantage, very successfully, of the political sensitivity and monopoly structure of the rail industry. Good luck to them and the workers who reap the benefits, but don't denigrate people outside the industry who are in no position to flex industrial strength in the same way.

 

[Bantamzen]

The question is, how long do you wait? How many years of loses do you take on the chin? This is year three with little fuss up to this point. If you fall too far behind due to huge inflation you will never regain those loses. Few here agreed with the pay rises or any industrial action pre-Covid when the railway was booming, "I haven't had a pay rise for 10 years", was always peddled out at the merest hint of either. I think many people would want no pay rises or far below inflation figures for the foreseeable future (5 years, 10 years?) for rail staff, hopelessly thinking it'll bring down fares, pure jealousy or just ideological opposition to an organised workforce achieving anything of value...

You wait until at least some pressures on the population are released, when the unions might have half a chance to negotiate a resolution. Right now they will get squat from No10/11, and they might get a lot worse than they bargained for.

 

[baz962]

It's not for want of trying. Why, for example, is the RMT noticeably less successful in the bus industry or maritime?

The rail unions have no special powers. They're small unions punching well above their weight by taking full advantage, very successfully, of the political sensitivity and monopoly structure of the rail industry. Good luck to them and the workers who reap the benefits, but don't denigrate people outside the industry who are in no position to flex industrial strength in the same way.

Well a slight point there moreso ASLEF than RMT. The fact they punch above as you put it , is due to the fact that you can't just call an employment agency and get in some drivers. Maybe we are a bit more skilled than some like to think.

 

[nottsnurse]

...you do have to question why the government didn't do it then (presuming there has actually been 12 years of relative freezes).

Ideological reasons.

 

[northwichcat]

Well a slight point there moreso ASLEF than RMT. The fact they punch above as you put it , is due to the fact that you can't just call an employment agency and get in some drivers. Maybe we are a bit more skilled than some like to think.

There's many jobs where you can't just call an employment agency and get a load of new employees in. I've worked in businesses where roles have gone unfilled when people have resigned, as there's not only no-one suitable already qualified locally but there's no-one suitable who can be trained up to the required level in an acceptable timeframe.

The difference with train drivers is they are providing a time critical service. If I have a meeting in Manchester at 11am, I don't want to catch a train that gets me there at 9:30am because there's a driver shortage, that could waste an hour of my time when I could be doing something more constructive.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well a slight point there moreso ASLEF than RMT. The fact they punch above as you put it , is due to the fact that you can't just call an employment agency and get in some drivers. Maybe we are a bit more skilled than some like to think.

No, it's because if the railways strike there's no alternative rail operators waiting in the wings to take all the business.

There are highly skilled people in other industries, believe it or not.

 

[the sniper]

It's not for want of trying. Why, for example, is the RMT noticeably less successful in the bus industry or maritime?

The rail unions have no special powers. They're small unions punching well above their weight by taking full advantage, very successfully, of the political sensitivity and monopoly structure of the rail industry. Good luck to them and the workers who reap the benefits, but don't denigrate people outside the industry who are in no position to flex industrial strength in the same way.

Post-Brexit, post-Covid, the bus drivers should be far more organised, they have far more potential than they ever did before. The maritime industry is admittedly the wild west, which even the Tories view as beyond the pale, which is saying something!

You wait until at least some pressures on the population are released, when the unions might have half a chance to negotiate a resolution. Right now they will get squat from No10/11, and they might get a lot worse than they bargained for.

So 5, 10 years? If anything the unions are getting in their claims before the hard times really begin...

 

[northwichcat]

There are highly skilled people in other industries, believe it or not.

Yep and some of these roles require 3-7 years of university level study. Train drivers are trained up in next to no time, compared to GPs.

 

[baz962]

No, it's because if the railways strike there's no alternative rail operators waiting in the wings to take all the business.

There are highly skilled people in other industries, believe it or not.

There are you are correct. But most other industries can get people in. There are agencies for truckers , teachers and even nurses and locum doctors. There ain't for train driver's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==

Yep and some of these roles require 3-7 years of university level study. Train drivers are trained up in next to no time, compared to GPs.

Again correct and that's why a go earns far more than train driver's. My local surgery post the average practice salary on their website. £104,000

 

[Bantamzen]

So 5, 10 years? If anything the unions are getting in their claims before the hard times really begin...

I don't know, it could be next year, or 5 or 10. But here's the rub, whilst the rest of the country is also suffering pay freezes, pay cuts, redundancies, rising energy costs, supply chain worries, and a government grimly determined to cut quickly, hard and deep, you will get short change from the public. And the Tories will use that against the industry, it's a nailed on bet. In any industrial dispute, you have to weigh risk versus reward, and the risk is much higher than any potential gains at this moment.

Government owned TOCs have already begun to make "temporary" cuts up and down the country, they could easily make them, and more permanent. Then they will turn the staffing levels and wield the axe in your direction.

 

[northwichcat]

There are you are correct. But most other industries can get people in. There are agencies for truckers , teachers and even nurses and locum doctors. There ain't for train driver's.

Not currently operating efficiently though. There's a shortage of drivers and it's leading to food prices increasing and drivers being poached from bus operators to retrain as HGV drivers. Thus, also leading to a shortage of bus drivers without fully resolving the shortage of HGV drivers.

 

[Goldfish62]

Post-Brexit, post-Covid, the bus drivers should be far more organised, they have far more potential than they ever did before.

So where's the RMT then?

The fact is that the bus industry or its workers do not have the same political clout as the railways. Companies can and do go out of business and routes withdrawn wholesale without replacement and not a word is said.

Over the next year due to withdrawal of government funding, local authority cuts and rising fuel prices the bus industry is going to be decimated. Taking strike action will do absolutely nothing to stop it and most likely accelerate the process.

 

[Robertj21a]

Some amazing comments on this thread from those anxious to support a rail strike.
For an industry with relatively little support from the general public they seem to have little real awareness of how they are simply improving Tory chances of re-election.

 

[dk1]

Why would you get a pay rise for working Sundays? You won't be working a 5 day week when you do a Sunday!, it will still be a 4 day week roster

Because Sunday payment is currently guaranteed as overtime payments if you work them. That would have to be made up for. This is often why unions are keener than TOCs at bringing it in. It won’t be acceptable to drivers otherwise.

 

[nedchester]

I don't know, it could be next year, or 5 or 10. But here's the rub, whilst the rest of the country is also suffering pay freezes, pay cuts, redundancies, rising energy costs, supply chain worries, and a government grimly determined to cut quickly, hard and deep, you will get short change from the public. And the Tories will use that against the industry, it's a nailed on bet. In any industrial dispute, you have to weigh risk versus reward, and the risk is much higher than any potential gains at this moment.

Government owned TOCs have already begun to make "temporary" cuts up and down the country, they could easily make them, and more permanent. Then they will turn the staffing levels and wield the axe in your direction.

Absolutely, there is a massive risk and if I was a betting man I’d say the rail workers would come out worse.

Outside the railway bubble the public really don’t give a damn about the rail unions and their workers and the Government are going to play on this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==

Because Sunday payment is currently guaranteed as overtime payments if you work them. That would have to be made up for. This is often why unions are keener than TOCs at bringing it in. It won’t be acceptable to drivers otherwise.

Unless it is imposed on them……….

(Please note I am not in favour of this but I can see it as a real possibility)

 

[dk1]

Which is what some rail staff fail to realise.

They will claim the “key worker” card so the Government will say if you’re so essential then we’ll enforce minimum service levels.

I don’t ever recall myself or any of my railway colleagues claiming to be key workers at the start of Covid. It was suddenly a label given to us & im glad it was. I would’ve gone stir crazy on furlough & at least earnings where kept up that way as any small loss in overtime from service cuts was easily made up covering those isolating & therefore sick.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==

While it might not be train drivers who are involved in the dispute, it just needs the media to quote a typical train driver salary for members of the public to be against them. Someone on the average salary is probably not going to object to a fully trained nurse getting brought up to that level but train drivers are already a long way above that level.

Train drivers are being balloted right now.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Just a little reminder. There are more employees than just Drivers and Guards. Network Rail and it's ballot will, I feel be a strong YES, from the Signalling side of things. As it is at the minute, the only way we will end up worse is losing a few days pay. The general mood within NR at the moment moment is dire. Especially Signallers.

If you fight, you MAY win! If you don't fight, you will NEVER win.

 

[The Planner]

Surely its not what the government or others do here, its how the press react? The vast majority of the public is not going to read around the subject or look deeper, if the headlines are industry bashing then it isn't going to matter how you try and sell the dispute.

 

[jayah]

It's been suggested that office workers working 40 hours a week wouldn't be less productive if they worked shorter hours and were still paid the same. That logic wouldn't work for the railways, as it would require trains to be driven faster to allow drivers to go home earlier.

If that were true you wouldn't be able to see the impact of a Bank Holiday in GDP figures as the knowledge economy would produce the same output in a 4 day week as it does in 5.

The truth is it doesn't.

 

[Gems]

The 'Great British railway' Umm what is that?

First of all lets just put Grant Shapps threats to one side. The man is a baffoon anyway. He calls out P&O but secretly would love to be able to apply their particular brand of employee relations all over the country. But lets discount his threats for another reason, a simple truth is that his threats were part of the last Tory manifesto anyhow, and were only sidelined by Covid.

No. The 'Great British railway' is set to be a re-hash of the old franchise system. The only thing that will change is the lack of company branding. However, nobody with a drop in passenger numbers would touch a rail franchise without a significant reduction in costs. This is what a lot of this is all about, reducing costs so they can make it more attractive. It starts with pay, then it moves on to pensions, then staff reductions, and then dumbing down the whole show until we have wound the clock back to the 70s.

If I cast my mind back to the 70s a lot of train spotters got very bored waiting to spot a train every hour and half compared to every fifteen minutes today.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just a little reminder. There are more employees than just Drivers and Guards. Network Rail and it's ballot will, I feel be a strong YES, from the Signalling side of things. As it is at the minute, the only way we will end up worse is losing a few days pay. The general mood within NR at the moment moment is dire. Especially Signallers.

If you fight, you MAY win! If you don't fight, you will NEVER win.

Yes, signallers hold the strongest hand in all this. From reports in the media it's the supply chain impact of not getting food to supermarkets that the government is really concerned about. The national shortage of HGV drivers means that food stocks cannot so easily be transferred to road.

My biggest concern is that any long-term action by signallers will reverse the encouraging growth in freight being transferred from road to rail.

 

[northwichcat]

If that were true you wouldn't be able to see the impact of a Bank Holiday in GDP figures as the knowledge economy would produce the same output in a 4 day week as it does in 5.

The truth is it doesn't.

I did not make a claim that everyone could work 4 days a week instead of 5 and the same amount of work would get done. I also don't think that would be true. Closing the office for a day or having fewer people in the office every day would almost certainly impact what could be achieved.

What I said was the office workers who work 40 hours a week i.e. those who work things like 9-6 or 8-5 with a 1 hour lunch break, could work shorter hours and still get the same amount of work done. I've seen myself that people who work an extra half hour or hour per day, compared to other office workers, don't get more done. They get tired and start working slower. They also make more mistakes, which then they have to go back and correct. It's like the exercising for an hour, over exercising for 50 minutes. If you start slowing down to keep going for the extra 10 minutes, then what's the point?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==

If I cast my mind back to the 70s a lot of train spotters got very bored waiting to spot a train every hour and half compared to every fifteen minutes today.

Having seen a 1970s timetable for my line, that would be preferable to today's. Same frequency but with faster journey times because there's no Metrolink and because the times weren't padded out to try and make it look like the train is almost always within 5 minutes of the scheduled time.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just a little reminder. There are more employees than just Drivers and Guards. Network Rail and it's ballot will, I feel be a strong YES, from the Signalling side of things. As it is at the minute, the only way we will end up worse is losing a few days pay. The general mood within NR at the moment moment is dire. Especially Signallers.

If you fight, you MAY win! If you don't fight, you will NEVER win.

Hmmm, and if you fight against the odds you can end up out of pocket, and out of a job. Just ask the mining industry...

History has a funny habit of repeating itself. I hope it doesn't, but there is a risk it will this time.

 

[the sniper]

Government owned TOCs have already begun to make "temporary" cuts up and down the country, they could easily make them, and more permanent. Then they will turn the staffing levels and wield the axe in your direction.

They can't run what's left after their cuts already with the current workforce and natural turnover will only make the situation worse. If they were to 'wield the axe' over and above that, they'll have to answer for why the railway has a further vastly reduced timetabled service that still can't be delivered...

So where's the RMT then?

I appreciate people have a very different understanding how the/a union actually works, but it's entirely reliant upon the members to have the will to do anything.

The fact is that the bus industry or its workers do not have the same political clout as the railways. Companies can and do go out of business and routes withdrawn wholesale without replacement and not a word is said.

The same opportunity, no, I agree. And certainly those working at small operators are in a far worse position than larger ones.

Over the next year due to withdrawal of government funding, local authority cuts and rising fuel prices the bus industry is going to be decimated. Taking strike action will do absolutely nothing to stop it and most likely accelerate the process.

Best to just accept the situation and keep voting Tory then.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Hmmm, and if you fight against the odds you can end up out of pocket, and out of a job. Just ask the mining industry...

History has a funny habit of repeating itself. I hope it doesn't, but there is a risk it will this time.

What's going to happen to Signallers job's, especially in the big Signalling Centres?
Despite you casting tales of woe, the railway isn't going to shut. If it does the green agenda is certainly out of the window.

 

[Bantamzen]

They can't run what's left after their cuts already with the current workforce and natural turnover will only make the situation worse. If they were to 'wield the axe' over and above that, they'll have to answer for why the railway has a further vastly reduced timetabled service that still can't be delivered...

Don't be so sure, the railway industry is is closer to being a public service than for a very long time. And Conservative governments have no problem with taking the axe to public services.

What's going to happen to Signallers job's, especially in the big Signalling Centres?

The railway isn't going to shut.

Parts of it might though...

 

[stuu]

I'm not a member of rail staff but I entirely sympathise with the need to maintain income in the current climate, and of course striking is a valid mechanism for protest.

That said, I don't think there will be any sympathy at all from a lot of the public, the headline will be "30% less passengers and they go on strike". The fact that doesn't equate to 30% less work won't come into it. The government will use it as an excuse to make cuts, resulting in many people having no income at all. The correlation between regular rail passengers and people who can work from home is pretty high, so the leverage of strike action is nothing like as strong as it would have been in January 2020.

 

[muz379]

It's not for want of trying. Why, for example, is the RMT noticeably less successful in the bus industry or maritime?

I don't know about maritime which has its own unique challenges but on busses the RMT don't have the membership density . Majority of bus drivers are organised by unite . Who at least in my experience do fairly well for drivers I've seen involved in disputes . A garage near me got an 8.9% rise earlier in the year , others got similarly generous rises . At another depot they saw off an employer trying to impose changes to conditions using "fire and rehire" .

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't know about maritime which has its own unique challenges but on busses the RMT don't have the membership density . Majority of bus drivers are organised by unite . Who at least in my experience do fairly well for drivers I've seen involved in disputes . A garage near me got an 8.9% rise earlier in the year , others got similarly generous rises . At another depot they saw off an employer trying to impose changes to conditions using "fire and rehire" .

That's right, but a rise of 8.9% generally only means an extra £1.00 per hour and Unite do understand the precarious position bus operators are in financially.

RMT is the dominant union at a number of major bus operators in the South West. They do no better at fighting for better pay and conditions than Unite do.