Problem is though that if we keep accepting no rise , this well paid career isn't so well paid when other jobs catch up. People queue up because of the pay , with no real idea of the shifts or being told when their leave is or only finding if they got an ad hoc day , three days before. How many would want all that if it was paid the same as a van driver who did Monday to Friday , no nights and no real training needed . Also not being assessed every few weeks or having their unit downloaded , no radio to listen to . And not having to read a weekly operating notice or late notices. I would wager not so many and certainly not enough that could pass the psychometric testing.
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Rail industry preparing for national strikes
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For the amount of work that Health Care Assistants do, for example, usually non-stop other than two short unpaid breaks in a 12.5 hour shift, I would be very supportive should those workers ballot for action to try and increase pay. As I am for others that wish to achieve the same. Let's try and bring everyone up rather than down.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Right ok ill just forfeit my house and get down the food bank to feed my family because a nurse can only expect to earn 40k. What is your point? I took my mortgage on at a time that it was affordable. It now is not really, when added to all the other costs that have gone up in life. Like many people. I am arguing everyone should be getting payrises not a race to the bottom or a "im only earning x amount so no one else should earn more" attitude. When i drive a busy train out of Plymouth bound for Paddington there is probably 50 or 60k of ticket revenue on board. I am making my company (and the economy) a lot of money by doing my job therefore why is it unreasonable to take a fair share?
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Here here
Very poor response there to somebody whose messages have been supportive of the right to strike . They simply responded to your incorrect assertion that the taps haven't been turned off for anyone else.
A gamble with future of the railway industry? Yes, of course, they've gambled for more already.
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What does the press have to do with anything? Either they're firmly on the Conservative's side already and won't change their views over transport policy, or they've already tried just about every other possible criticism of Johnson and it has had no effect. Have you seen the criticism of the Prime Minister in the Guardian, FT and Mirror? Because currently it's having approximately zero impact. There's no way the Mail, Sun or Express will criticise him over the railway union's dispute.
They can enforce minimum service levels whenever they like but unless they’re going to employ enough staff to run a true 7 day service then it won’t make any difference.
Look at scotrail over the past 3 weeks, a rest day working ban has caused a bloodbath. Mass cancellations, leading to an emergency timetable that has shut down the national railway in the early evening.
What are the going to do to avoid a scenario like this in future without financing the railway to run 7 days per week? Minimum service levels is just sabre rattling to look like they’re crushing the unions, working to rule has a bigger impact than random 1 day strikes.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Well I apologise if it came over harsh . But you cannot tell me other sectors are all experiencing pay freezes at present ? Most people are getting payrises just not ones that keep up with inflation.
Amen. This is the point which seems to constantly be made yet ignored on this forum!
Don't knock people down for wanting to improve their lives just because they have great t&C's and a strong union to fight for them. It's time other industries fought to have the same
irish_rail
On Moderation
What really irks me is if Shapps and co are so desperate to save money it could be done in better ways. Bring all the TOCs together, same HR dept etc same livery same uniform all staff at a location can if desirable drive all routes and traction. You'd quickly be able to bring the wage bill right down as you'd be employing fewer people and savings from using the same standards right across the country rather than each individual TOC having their own staff .
But that just doesn't fit well with Tory ideology does it.
But that just doesn't fit well with Tory ideology does it.
nottsnurse
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Thank you.
Quite a shocking response really, especially as the points they raise apply equally to nurses.
As for the bit they then go onto talk about (sharing revenue profit), do they think that good or bad performance by healthcare workers doesn't have financial repercussions? There are a multitude of ways that the proactive provision of good care saves the NHS (and therefore, public purse) money.
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Spot on.
A race to the bottom only benefits the disaster capitalists who stoke the flames.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Let the thread population all rise as one and sing that song by the Strawbs in unison...."Part of the Union".
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If everyone get pay rises, then prices increase to pay for higher staffing costs, then people still complain of a high cost of living and it goes around in a circle.
If everyone's paid a fair wage for the type of work they do, then it's easier to keep prices under control.
There's no benefit in having Swiss level salaries if we have to pay Swiss level prices.
It's been suggested that office workers working 40 hours a week wouldn't be less productive if they worked shorter hours and were still paid the same. That logic wouldn't work for the railways, as it would require trains to be driven faster to allow drivers to go home earlier.
Ex-controller
Member
It strikes me more and more that there appears to be a concerted effort by government, it’s agencies, and railway management to face down unions, possibly in an attempt to break them.
The railway is one of the few places where unions remain particularly strong, and those working in the railway have been able to defend long standing pay and conditions as a consequence.
I commented on the ScotRail overtime ban thread that the only way out of the current impasse was to seek to reach a genuine agreement with the union, or seriously undermine the rail industry in Scotland for years to come. I’m now starting to think that the latter is seen, in both Scotland and the wider UK, as a price worth paying by those in power.
The railway is one of the few places where unions remain particularly strong, and those working in the railway have been able to defend long standing pay and conditions as a consequence.
I commented on the ScotRail overtime ban thread that the only way out of the current impasse was to seek to reach a genuine agreement with the union, or seriously undermine the rail industry in Scotland for years to come. I’m now starting to think that the latter is seen, in both Scotland and the wider UK, as a price worth paying by those in power.
nottsnurse
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To be honest, union membership should be encouraged more widely.
It's no surprise that the T&C's of workers have reduced in line with the general reduction in union membership.
The Swiss pay high salaries by specialising in fields which are non-labour intensive, such as insurance and financial services. They use the foreign exchange created by this demand for their services to purchase labour-intensive goods and services made elsewhere, where wages are low.
The UK is currently experiencing the pain of this correction. If you want to use any service which is labour-intensive such as a heavy railway, supermarket home delivery or a restaurant, you have to pay much more than you do for a tramway, shopping in a supermarket and carrying your own bags, or a takeaway coffee shop. As a society we have not recognised the differences between these products as we should have been doing, and we now need to reevaluate our expectations.
irish_rail
On Moderation
I slightly misread where you were coming from on this and for that I apologise. But as you can imagine this is a rather emotive subject at present and occasionally one has a tendency to jump to conclusions.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Have they? As recently as the 1990s there was no such thing as paid paternal leave for new dads, those working Bank Holidays who got statutory annual leave, didn't get lieu days and employers could fire you for being too old the day you reached 65.
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Not sure the claim that tramway is less labour intensive than heavy rail is justified. For Metrolink drivers need to be able to work under National Rail signalling system, as well as working on light of sight for off-road use and complying road rules on the road. They also have to control the doors and if necessary make emergency announcements and evacuate passengers, rather than having a guard to assist them.
No staff at stations, generally only one member of staff per set, shorter training courses. Much, much more output (passenger capacity) than the equivalent heavy rail service. It is enormously less labour intensive.
It's not a question of not wanting people to improve their lot, it's the timing. A lot of people are going through the mill at the moment and a prolonged rail strike makes it more difficult still if they need the train to get to work, or to bring customers to the companies they work for. We've just had two years of a nightmare situation were many have suffered way more but could be facing even more.
The unions are going to need the travelling public's support on this one, because you know that the government will leap on any sign of public anger towards rail workers taking action and use it to their advantage. As I said further up the thread, this is not a good time to be trying to shoehorn out more money or improved T&Cs when the government is literally axe in hand looking for more areas to make deep cuts to make up some of the estimated half trillion quid covid measures alone have cost the economy.
I suspect there has been a crossed wire here between labour intensity of the business which you're on about (IE number of people needed to run the system), and the intensity of the labour required by the workers on the system to make it work (IE how hard the work is) which is what I reckon @pemma is on about
Oh! Yes, that's a good point. Thanks.I suspect there has been a crossed wire here between labour intensity of the business which you're on about (IE number of people needed to run the system), and the intensity of the labour required by the workers on the system to make it work (IE how hard the work is) which is what I reckon @pemma is on about
irish_rail
On Moderation
I think you over estimate the esteem this government is held in. Most people won't listen to a word any of them say anymore , its almost too comical to be true, indeed you couldn't even write it. I genuinely don't believe rail disruption will help the Government, its past that now , they have lost the people far more than the rail unions ever will. As long as Bozo is at the helm this government just won't be taken seriously and I don't see the public suddenly turning on rail staff just because the government add us to the list of people who's fault this current mess is other than their own.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Presumably the reasons for shorter training include the staff having already learnt how to drive on the road in a road vehicle, in their own time and paying for it themselves. Also only one type of vehicle to learn, not really a tram vs train issue as Northern don't need as many different types of train as they have.
Less staff means greater pressure on the member of staff available, making him or her more imperative. And if it's a more efficient way of operating that means from a business prospective there should be more money to pay the staff are they don't have to split the money multiple ways for providing a similar level of service.
Signal_Box
Member
I’d happily have Sunday in the booked working week, I’d assume they’d be pensionable ?
Like you there with about £12k the ones I’m booked to work.
People seem to think it’s the workforce who are dead against any kind of modernisation I’m all for it in moderation.
Weekly notices and general day to day paperwork on paper in 2002, have we not heard of iPads personal issue or even a iPad on each panel / workstation or signal box ? That small project could save millions across the industry.
Sunday as per of a Standard 4 day week (I already work 12hr shifts), removal of night rate but keeping RDW rate and our HROP/LROP or CL days obviously give and take.
The government doesn’t want to modernise as it’ll cost money, money they don’t want to spend but are more than happy to blame the greedy workers and nasty unions who are stuck in the 70s.
Don’t you know one driver or signaller can buy at least two nurses they cry!
Maybe if nurses had their training paid for them you might get more people enter the profession, not to mention pay them a decent salary !
northwichcat
Veteran Member
While it might not be train drivers who are involved in the dispute, it just needs the media to quote a typical train driver salary for members of the public to be against them. Someone on the average salary is probably not going to object to a fully trained nurse getting brought up to that level but train drivers are already a long way above that level.
nottsnurse
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So when is the right time?
Since 2010 we have seen, on numerous occasions, pleas of "it's not the right time".
12 years and counting of "not the right time"...
No certainly don't think everyone has a pay freeze. Just felt you were taking the comment out of context, as the poster is very supportive of the right to strike. Tbh the only reason I bothered to reply was because you're a decent poster and that seemed out of character (as evidenced by your apology to nottsnurse).
I'm in the same boat as you now, 3 years without a rise. I think now is the time for action or we'll end up with 5,6 years without a rise.
nottsnurse
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No problem, I accept your apology.
As one union member to another, these are troubling times. Unfortunately the unions many of my colleagues are in are toothless to the point of seemingly doing the government's work for them.
Solidarity
northwichcat
Veteran Member
2018 would have been the right time to increase the salaries of public sector staff. With unemployment low and a general election, you do have to question why the government didn't do it then (presuming there has actually been 12 years of relative freezes).
It's not a question of esteem though, the bottom line is that they are on a course to make deep cuts where they can and the railways offering up huge disruption through industrial action is a natural target for them. They may have lost the public, don't kid yourselves that they will still try to use the upcoming malcontent against you all. They are already drafting up new anti-union legislation, all they need is for the travelling public being hit with more disruption to get angry and they will pounce.
There is never a "right time", but 2022 is becoming a cluster-you-know-what for a lot of workers, inflation is on the march, energy prices are killing people's budgets, and even the war in Ukraine could affect us. All of this on top of the country trying to recover from covid measures. Is this really the time to be doing this? You have to balance the likelihood of success versus the risk of further damaging yourselves, and right now bookies probably wouldn't even offer odds on a successful industrial action campaign.
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