Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[muz379]

As I said earlier this should have been sorted out years ago but the privatised companies kicked the can down the road.

I do fear that if push comes to shove the Government will be saying “take it or leave it”. Pragmatism is needed here.

People say they’ll “leave it” but how many will be able to get a similar wage to that they currently earn. I know when I was dissatisfied in a previous career it was a hard choice to leave a secure well paid job to a less secure and less well paid job.

The "take it or leave it approach" is a huge gamble if used against a grade that will still be required to operate the job.

What if enough of a percentage thought actually I'll retire a bit early , or use it as a chance to move on etc . Not saying a majority would but look at the issues at ScotRail caused by driver shortages you'd only need 10/15% to leave it and you'd be in huge bother for an extended period .

There's always the risk albeit an unlikely one that the workforce could even totally stick together and have a de facto strike . Imagine how long it would take to replace a whole grade starting from absolutely nothing . political pressure would soon dictate a reversal.

Now I know Johnson and co are huge chancers but would those around him allow such a gamble.

 

[High Dyke]

But why are we still relying on the Mark I eyeball to walk the track its madness. Monitoring track conditions should have moved on from this method of working by now. Removing the Mark I eyeball from the track means it has less chance of being run over.

To some extent the Mk.1 eyeball is more effective. It can spot smaller, but important faults sooner than a monitoring train. However, I'm not opposed to improvements, but there are still many lines where monitoring trains do not run; these still have to be walked. Or do we just allow those lines to deteriorate to the point of closure risk?

 

[Dai Corner]

The "take it or leave it approach" is a huge gamble if used against a grade that will still be required to operate the job.

What if enough of a percentage thought actually I'll retire a bit early , or use it as a chance to move on etc . Not saying a majority would but look at the issues at ScotRail caused by driver shortages you'd only need 10/15% to leave it and you'd be in huge bother for an extended period .

There's always the risk albeit an unlikely one that the workforce could even totally stick together and have a de facto strike . Imagine how long it would take to replace a whole grade starting from absolutely nothing . political pressure would soon dictate a reversal.

Now I know Johnson and co are huge chancers but would those around him allow such a gamble.

You're looking at it from the perspective of railway staff and regular passengers. 95% of the general public wouldn't be impacted if no trains ran for a few weeks or months.

 

[northwichcat]

The RMT have cried and cried for a nationalised rail network, yet they have totally failed to explain to their members what that means. It means we are effectively government employees, and as one of my railways colleagues who was a copper before he joined the railway pointed out, being a government employee such as a copper puts you at the bottom of the pile when it comes to pay agreements.

With privatised companies they've had the best of both worlds. If a Stagecoach owned TOC made a profit, then they called for pay rises. If a Stagecoach owned TOC made a loss but Stagecoach PLC made a profit, they called for pay rises. If they both made a loss then they still called for pay rises, claiming living cost increases. Outside the rail world the latter would mean there's a risk of a reduction in staffing levels to prevent the company risking administration.

If you want pay to increase at the rate the cost of living increases, then ignore the profits. But by all means call for the business to invest money made back in to the business instead of paying shareholders but don't call for above inflation pay rises one year and then complain about below inflation increases the next.

We've already had a freeze for 2 years, now into our 3rd. RPI is at 11%, even if they offered that (which is unlikely) it still doesn't make up for no RPI rise in 2020/21. We have still lost out.

RPI is announced monthly but it's normal for pay reviews to be annual. If you pay review is due in January then the rate of RPI in January would be the figure taken in to consideration.

 

[nedchester]

The "take it or leave it approach" is a huge gamble if used against a grade that will still be required to operate the job.

What if enough of a percentage thought actually I'll retire a bit early , or use it as a chance to move on etc . Not saying a majority would but look at the issues at ScotRail caused by driver shortages you'd only need 10/15% to leave it and you'd be in huge bother for an extended period .

There's always the risk albeit an unlikely one that the workforce could even totally stick together and have a de facto strike . Imagine how long it would take to replace a whole grade starting from absolutely nothing . political pressure would soon dictate a reversal.

Now I know Johnson and co are huge chancers but would those around him allow such a gamble.

I agree but I still can see them giving it a go after a period of other industrial action and/or with legislation for minimum service levels.

They are chancers and it could be one of their last gambles….

 

[Bantamzen]

I know quite a few who got furloughed. They all got other jobs, be it part time or full, while also claiming their 80%.

I'd have loved to be furloughed and get 80%. No petrol costs, money saved on eating at work, no public transport costs, and just not having to work.

I'll be sure to pass your thoughts onto those people who got into severe financial difficulties as a result of a 20% pay cut...

The mind boggles sometimes, I just hope most of your colleagues don't have similar opinions to yourself, otherwise public sympathy will go through the floor. And trust me, you are going to need it otherwise the Tories will rip your industry from underneath you.

 

[northwichcat]

You're looking at it from the perspective of railway staff and regular passengers. 95% of the general public wouldn't be impacted if no trains ran for a few weeks or months.

I think perhaps you're doing the same thing. If no trains reduces footfall in city centres then there's a chance those working in retail and hospitality could lose out on work, due to being on zero hours contracts or overtime not being available due to the business being quiet.

 

[nedchester]

You're looking at it from the perspective of railway staff and regular passengers. 95% of the general public wouldn't be impacted if no trains ran for a few weeks or months.

Which is what some rail staff fail to realise.

They will claim the “key worker” card so the Government will say if you’re so essential then we’ll enforce minimum service levels.

 

[bramling]

Which is what some rail staff fail to realise.

They will claim the “key worker” card so the Government will say if you’re so essential then we’ll enforce minimum service levels.

Whatever one’s views on all this, I think any “key worker” boat has sailed. That was really just a ploy to encourage certain people to come to work during a health scare.

I think most of the population would simply prefer for Johnson to devote his time to attempting to mitigate against cost of living increases, rather than picking battles with unions.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think perhaps you're doing the same thing. If no trains reduces footfall in city centres then there's a chance those working in retail and hospitality could lose out on work, due to being on zero hours contracts or overtime not being available due to the business being quiet.

People who would otherwise travel by train into city centres will either use the bus, drive or shop/eat/drink locally. Any displaced staff may well find work closer to home in residential areas, saving on travel time and costs.

 

[northwichcat]

I know quite a few who got furloughed. They all got other jobs, be it part time or full, while also claiming their 80%.

I'd have loved to be furloughed and get 80%. No petrol costs, money saved on eating at work, no public transport costs, and just not having to work.

Well I was due to buy a house in 2020. Due to being furloughed and then being made redundant after work didn't pick up, it set me back over 2 years and I'm now back where I was in Jan/Feb 2020.

I would also suggest you're lazier than most people who were furloughed. Like many others I was bored when placed on furlough while lockdown restrictions were in force. So I volunteered for a charity supporting carers. I also didn't buy food when at work, I prepared a lunch (at home) to take with me and had my main meal when I got home in the evening. I did save around £120 a month in commuting costs but 20% of my salary was more than £120.

 

[muz379]

You're looking at it from the perspective of railway staff and regular passengers. 95% of the general public wouldn't be impacted if no trains ran for a few weeks or months.

No I'm looking at it from the political embarrassment/pressure point of view . If the first thing done in the name of GBR is a fire and rehire and it blows up in their faces the press are going to love that.

You are right in a lot of the country people don't use trains or don't use them regularly yet the looming threat of a rail strike is headline news and has got a lot of coverage on the news programming.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well I was due to buy a house in 2020. Due to being furloughed and then being made redundant after work didn't pick up, it set me back over 2 years and I'm now back where I was in Jan/Feb 2020.

I would also suggest you're lazier than most people who were furloughed. Like many others I was bored when placed on furlough while lockdown restrictions were in force. So I volunteered for a charity supporting carers. I also didn't buy food when at work, I prepared a lunch (at home) to take with me and had my main meal when I got home in the evening. I did save around £120 a month in commuting costs but 20% of my salary was more than £120.

You chose to work for nothing. If you'd taken paid work you'd have been better off and quite possibly have another job to go to after collecting your redundancy payment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==

No I'm looking at it from the political embarrassment/pressure point of view .

You are right in a lot of the country people don't use trains or don't use then regularly yet the looking threat of a rail strike is headline news and has got a lot of coverage on the news programming.

Why would a Conservative Government be embarrassed at being seen to stand up to militant Trade Unions?

 

[northwichcat]

People who would otherwise travel by train into city centres will either use the bus, drive or shop/eat/drink locally. Any displaced staff may well find work closer to home in residential areas, saving on travel time and costs.

It's 2022 now. If a holding a business meeting face-to-face doesn't work, it'll be done remotely. They'll be no-one trying to get from Stoke to Manchester by bus and if they have the meeting from their laptop instead they won't be having lunch at a cafe in Stoke instead of Manchester.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's 2022 now. If a holding a business meeting face-to-face doesn't work, it'll be done remotely. They'll be no-one trying to get from Stoke to Manchester by bus and if they have the meeting from their laptop instead they won't be having lunch at a cafe in Stoke instead of Manchester.

On the other hand they'll have more money in their pockets and feel more inclined to eat out just to get out of the house for an hour or two.

 

[northwichcat]

You chose to work for nothing. If you'd taken paid work you'd have been better off and quite possibly have another job to go to after collecting your redundancy payment.

Incorrect. Under the terms of furlough I had to be available to return to my current employer at very short notice. So I could only apply for permanent vacancies, requiring me to resign from my current role or volunteer, meaning I wasn't required to turn up if I was recalled for work. I did both but there were very few permanent vacancies advertised and the ones advertised were getting hundreds of applications. For a job advertised on Civil Service Jobs I was told I was in the top 1% of applicants but I still failed to get a first interview!

I also didn't volunteer for the carers charity after being made redundant, I volunteered while on furlough. By that time the carers charity had changed their focus and didn't actually need as many volunteers doing what I had been doing.

 

[muz379]

Why would a Conservative Government be embarrassed at being seen to stand up to militant Trade Unions?

This assumes they can control the narrative so it looks that way. Johnson isn't as universally popular among the establishment as some like to think and if they can see an opportunity to do him in they might take it . I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't party leader at the next general election.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The same general public who shop themselves on Amazon....

You may not believe this, but a few of us are still enjoying the shopping experience. In my case, I suppose that I am fortunate to have both a Hoopers Department Store in Wilmslow, a Waitrose supermarket in Wilmslow and a large John Lewis store in Cheadle Royal, plus there still are family-owned businesses in the local area.

Note : since I have answered a point made upon this thread, I assume that since that posting that I referred to was allowed to stay on this thread as being on topic, so my response should be deemed also acceptable.

 

[niggill617@gma]

No I'm looking at it from the political embarrassment/pressure point of view .

You are right in a lot of the country people don't use trains or don't use then regularly yet the looking threat of a rail strike is headline news and has got a lot of coverage on the news programming.

I remember driving during the pandemic, before I was suspended for nearly 3 months, on full pay wonderful. Stopping at Torre and looking back, I failed to see all the NHS professionals marching up to Torbay Hospital. They have more sense, so use the car or bus which saves the walk.

 

[Andypandy1968]

I wonder who exactly funds the RMT? It wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve received ‘donations’ from Russia to be honest…

You don't get how unions work? It's members pay subs

 

[northwichcat]

On the other hand they'll have more money in their pockets and feel more inclined to eat out just to get out of the house for an hour or two.

I don't work in Manchester or London but I have been to both over past year for business trips. Any costs I incurred, including train travel and meals, were reimbursed as expenses by the company. So I actually saved a little bit of money by going on the business trips. I only would have spent my own money if I'd chosen to book some time off and stay longer in London at my own expense.

 

[Wolfie]

You may not believe this, but a few of us are still enjoying the shopping experience. In my case, I suppose that I am fortunate to have both a Hoopers Department Store in Wilmslow, a Waitrose supermarket in Wilmslow and a large John Lewis store in Cheadle Royal, plus there still are family-owned businesses in the local area.

Note : since I have answered a point made upon this thread, I assume that since that posting that I referred to was allowed to stay on this thread as being on topic, so my response should be deemed also acceptable.

Conscious that this is indeed off topic but l completely agree. I'm always amazed, when a store chain fails, the number of folk saying what a shame it is followed almost immediately by a statement about how they personally hadn't been in there for years.

 

[northwichcat]

You may not believe this, but a few of us are still enjoying the shopping experience. In my case, I suppose that I am fortunate to have both a Hoopers Department Store in Wilmslow, a Waitrose supermarket in Wilmslow and a large John Lewis store in Cheadle Royal, plus there still are family-owned businesses in the local area.

Waitrose stores also offer Click n Collect for John Lewis. I've observed lots of people taking advantage of this service in the Knutsford Waitrose store, to be able to buy items from John Lewis without incurring either delivery costs or costs in getting to a John Lewis store.

 

[Wolfie]

It's 2022 now. If a holding a business meeting face-to-face doesn't work, it'll be done remotely. They'll be no-one trying to get from Stoke to Manchester by bus and if they have the meeting from their laptop instead they won't be having lunch at a cafe in Stoke instead of Manchester.

For much business you are correct. There are certain specialist work areas, e.g. national security, where that isn't always so. Even if there are remote communication facilities they themselves are in the workplace.

 

[northwichcat]

Conscious that this is indeed off topic but l completely agree. I'm always amazed, when a store chain fails, the number of folk saying what a shame it is followed almost immediately by a statement about how they personally hadn't been in there for years.

And people aren't happy when administrators sell the brand name to another business to resurrect it as an online only brand. Examples of this include Woolworths, Debenhams and Thomas Cook.

 

[Wolfie]

Waitrose stores also offer Click n Collect for John Lewis. I've observed lots of people taking advantage of this service in the Knutsford Waitrose store, to be able to buy items from John Lewis without incurring either delivery costs or costs in getting to a John Lewis store.

They do albeit that John Lewis still charge a fee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2022 ==

And people aren't happy when administrators sell the brand name to another business to resurrect it as an online only brand. Examples of this include Woolworths, Debenhams and Thomas Cook.

True enough (although Fosun International who bought the Thomas Cook brand were shareholders in the defunct company and, until the banks pulled the plug, planned a rescue bid.

 

[Andypandy1968]

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this is the end of railway unions. They’ll be completely finished, as per the mining etc. unions of the 1980s. I’ll be voting no for strike action, and action short of a strike. I want to see the industry flourish, not price itself out of existence and relevance.

If a vote is passed I will respect it, I have little other option. But if industrial action takes places, I fully expect a wholesale fire and rehire. Most of the population will just say ‘oh’ and turn on their laptop instead for 18 months until replacements on half the wages are trained (allowing a drop in ticket prices too).

Will bus drivers and lorry drivers turn on their laptops and work from home? Will people in factories work from home?

 

[Andypandy1968]

I’m happy for Sunday in the working week too. As you say that £12000 would have to be included into the basic salary. This would then give a very nice increase in the hourly rate of pay

Why would you get a pay rise for working Sundays? You won't be working a 5 day week when you do a Sunday!, it will still be a 4 day week roster

 

[Falcon1200]

Regarding Sunday's in the working week. I'd be happy with that, if it was properly recompensed for the Sundays we are booked to work. That however, is not a payrise! My booked Sundays are worth about £12000 per year, so that needs adding to the basic salary if we do Sunday as working week.

I would have gone for that too - More time off, the same take-home pay, and a higher rate should any overtime be worked. Who wouldn't want that ? However, as this would increase the cost of running the railway, the same old question rears its ugly head - Where would the money come from ?

 

[nottsnurse]

And most rail workers were getting these kinds of rises as well since 2010. 2 or 3 percent. Yet suddenly the tap is turned off for rail workers whilst not for everyone else? During covid I didn't hear a single person say why are we not getting a rise this year, but now with packed trains , and record inflation its hardly unreasonable to expect something.

The tap has been turned off for many of us, and has been for quite a while. This, despite a shortage of 40k+ Registered Nurses and the pull factor of jobs elsewhere in the world on higher wages.