Charged more for more restrictive ticket

[Incogcyclist79]

Today the ticket machines at Bristol Temple Meads were not working so I tried to buy my usual ticket for return travel to Trowbridge (an Anytime Day Return at £13.00 as the train is the 08:20 departure and the Off Peak ticket for £12.10 is not valid until 08:30) from a person with a portable ticket machine.

She quoted a fare of £14.80, which I queried. I said it's £13.00 and produced a receipt from the day before, to which she was adamant it was £14.80 and chided me paying the £13 fare previously for the 08:20! She then looked through the list and asked me to pay, so thinking she must have found the correct fare I did so.

It then turns out I paid £13.30 for an Off Peak fare to which she gleefully told me was only valid from the 08:42 departure onwards.

As the above all happened with me trying to get my train I didn't have time to argue. I caught the 08:20 anyway and the ticket was scanned by the guard and nothing was said to dispute its use.

First of all can anybody advise what fare I was actually charged as the Off Peak is definitely £12.10 (see attachment).

And is there any worth in complaining as I only paid 30p more, although it was on a ticket which could have left me open to a penalty fare.

 

[Watershed]

Today the ticket machines at Bristol Temple Meads were not working so I tried to buy my usual ticket for return travel to Trowbridge (an Anytime Day Return at £13.00 as the train is the 08:20 departure and the Off Peak ticket for £12.10 is not valid until 08:30) from a person with a portable ticket machine.

She quoted a fare of £14.80, which I queried. I said it's £13.00 and produced a receipt from the day before, to which she was adamant it was £14.80 and chided me paying the £13 fare previously for the 08:20! She then looked through the list and asked me to pay, so thinking she must have found the correct fare I did so.

It then turns out I paid £13.30 for an Off Peak fare to which she gleefully told me was only valid from the 08:42 departure onwards.

As the above all happened with me trying to get my train I didn't have time to argue. I caught the 08:20 anyway and the ticket was scanned by the guard and nothing was said to dispute its use.

First of all can anybody advise what fare I was actually charged as the Off Peak is definitely £12.10 (see attachment).

And is there any worth in complaining as I only paid 30p more, although it was on a ticket which could have left me open to a penalty fare.

Oh dear. Looks like GWR have messed up on several counts here.

As you can see here, there are two different routes of fares between Bristol TM and Trowbridge - route "Any Permitted" and route "." (dot). They both have identical validity in terms of the routes you can take (route "dot" implies no restriction, the same as "Any Permitted"), so the cheapest should always be sold, which in this case is the Any Permitted fare.

The reason there are two sets of fares is because the higher fare (route "dot") is priced on a "clustered" basis, meaning that it is the same fare from several stations in the Bristol area to several stations in the Trowbridge/Westbury area:



However, as Bristol to Trowbridge is a shorter journey than some of the longer journeys that can be done within that flow (e.g. Bristol Parkway to Westbury), GWR want to set lower fares for this specific journey. So they also set fares on what's known as a "point to point" basis:



Usually, a point to point fare will "override" a clustered fare, so that you would only see the cheaper fares in this case. However, this only happens when the routes of the two fares are identical. And as GWR, in their infinite wisdom, changed the route of the clustered fares to route "dot", whilst keeping the point to point fare as "Any Permitted", the system thinks that these are intentionally different routes of fares. And so both are shown.

Coming back to your predicament, if you buy a ticket from Bristol TM to Trowbridge you should always be charged the cheaper route "Any Permitted" fares. There is nothing gained by buying the more expensive ticket. Accordingly you should buy the Anytime Day Return of £13.00 if you are travelling before 08:30, or the Off-Peak Day Return of £12.10 if travelling from 08:30 onwards.

Accordingly the member of staff overcharged you, as you correctly identify. Not only this, but she sold you a ticket which, in theory, would not be valid until 09:30! Now, having a ticket which is invalid due to a time restriction is not something for which you can be issued with a Penalty Fare - you would just have to pay the difference (which in this case would be nothing, as a cheaper fare is valid at that time). But you certainly have grounds for complaint here, for being overcharged and misled about the validity of your ticket.

I would contact GWR customer relations and ask them for a refund of anything you were overcharged today and in the past, as well as an assurance that the fares will be fixed so that this problem cannot arise again in the future, and that members of staff will be rebriefed to ensure they sell the correct fare if this situation arises again.

 

[Incogcyclist79]

Oh dear. Looks like GWR have messed up on several counts here.

As you can see here, there are two different routes of fares between Bristol TM and Trowbridge - route "Any Permitted" and route "." (dot). They both have identical validity in terms of the routes you can take (route "dot" implies no restriction, the same as "Any Permitted"), so the cheapest should always be sold, which in this case is the Any Permitted fare.

The reason there are two sets of fares is because the higher fare (route "dot") is priced on a "clustered" basis, meaning that it is the same fare from several stations in the Bristol area to several stations in the Trowbridge/Westbury area:

View attachment 114861

However, as Bristol to Trowbridge is a shorter journey than some of the longer journeys that can be done within that flow (e.g. Bristol Parkway to Westbury), GWR want to set lower fares for this specific journey. So they also set fares on what's known as a "point to point" basis:

View attachment 114860

Usually, a point to point fare will "override" a clustered fare, so that you would only see the cheaper fares in this case. However, this only happens when the routes of the two fares are identical. And as GWR, in their infinite wisdom, changed the route of the clustered fares to route "dot", whilst keeping the point to point fare as "Any Permitted", the system thinks that these are intentionally different routes of fares. And so both are shown.

Coming back to your predicament, if you buy a ticket from Bristol TM to Trowbridge you should always be charged the cheaper route "Any Permitted" fares. There is nothing gained by buying the more expensive ticket. Accordingly you should buy the Anytime Day Return of £13.00 if you are travelling before 08:30, or the Off-Peak Day Return of £12.10 if travelling from 08:30 onwards.

Accordingly the member of staff overcharged you, as you correctly identify. Not only this, but she sold you a ticket which, in theory, would not be valid until 09:30! Now, having a ticket which is invalid due to a time restriction is not something for which you can be issued with a Penalty Fare - you would just have to pay the difference (which in this case would be nothing, as a cheaper fare is valid at that time). But you certainly have grounds for complaint here, for being overcharged and misled about the validity of your ticket.

I would contact GWR customer relations and ask them for a refund of anything you were overcharged today and in the past, as well as an assurance that the fares will be fixed so that this problem cannot arise again in the future, and that members of staff will be rebriefed to ensure they sell the correct fare if this situation arises again.

Thank you Watershed for an extremely thorough reply. I usually buy from the ticket machines and they provide the correct fare. I will definitely email their complaints dept to advise that this has happened.

 

[Turtle]

Oh dear. Looks like GWR have messed up on several counts here.

As you can see here, there are two different routes of fares between Bristol TM and Trowbridge - route "Any Permitted" and route "." (dot). They both have identical validity in terms of the routes you can take (route "dot" implies no restriction, the same as "Any Permitted"), so the cheapest should always be sold, which in this case is the Any Permitted fare.

The reason there are two sets of fares is because the higher fare (route "dot") is priced on a "clustered" basis, meaning that it is the same fare from several stations in the Bristol area to several stations in the Trowbridge/Westbury area:

View attachment 114861

However, as Bristol to Trowbridge is a shorter journey than some of the longer journeys that can be done within that flow (e.g. Bristol Parkway to Westbury), GWR want to set lower fares for this specific journey. So they also set fares on what's known as a "point to point" basis:

View attachment 114860

Usually, a point to point fare will "override" a clustered fare, so that you would only see the cheaper fares in this case. However, this only happens when the routes of the two fares are identical. And as GWR, in their infinite wisdom, changed the route of the clustered fares to route "dot", whilst keeping the point to point fare as "Any Permitted", the system thinks that these are intentionally different routes of fares. And so both are shown.

Coming back to your predicament, if you buy a ticket from Bristol TM to Trowbridge you should always be charged the cheaper route "Any Permitted" fares. There is nothing gained by buying the more expensive ticket. Accordingly you should buy the Anytime Day Return of £13.00 if you are travelling before 08:30, or the Off-Peak Day Return of £12.10 if travelling from 08:30 onwards.

Accordingly the member of staff overcharged you, as you correctly identify. Not only this, but she sold you a ticket which, in theory, would not be valid until 09:30! Now, having a ticket which is invalid due to a time restriction is not something for which you can be issued with a Penalty Fare - you would just have to pay the difference (which in this case would be nothing, as a cheaper fare is valid at that time). But you certainly have grounds for complaint here, for being overcharged and misled about the validity of your ticket.

I would contact GWR customer relations and ask them for a refund of anything you were overcharged today and in the past, as well as an assurance that the fares will be fixed so that this problem cannot arise again in the future, and that members of staff will be rebriefed to ensure they sell the correct fare if this situation arises again.

Watershed,
Thank you for your excellent discourse (for that is what it is) which sums up what is wrong with the rail fare system in this country. How is an average member of the public expect to know this when even the railway employee is not fully qualified in such ticketing matters.

 

[najaB]

Thank you for your excellent discourse (for that is what it is) which sums up what is wrong with the rail fare system in this country. How is an average member of the public expect to know this when even the railway employee is not fully qualified in such ticketing matters.

Suggestions on a post card for a simpler system which doesn't introduce anomalies or penalise passengers with higher fares than current and is largely revenue neutral.

 

[Watershed]

Watershed,
Thank you for your excellent discourse (for that is what it is) which sums up what is wrong with the rail fare system in this country. How is an average member of the public expect to know this when even the railway employee is not fully qualified in such ticketing matters.

This particular issue has arisen out of the rail industry's rather half-hearted effort to scrap route "any permitted". Because clearly, being told nothing at all (route dot) is better than being told you can take any permitted route. Figure that one out!

It would be far easier and better if the rail industry could come up with a site where you could enter the details of your ticket and be shown at a glance what the valid routes are. Yet the industry prefers to persist with such nonsense as having to look up map combinations in a 2200 page document called the Yellow Pages, and telling people to look it up on National Rail Enquiries if they can't be bothered to do that (despite the fact that NRE is sometimes wrong).

It is symptomatic of an industry that takes no notice of what the customer experience is like.

 

[island]

This particular issue has arisen out of the rail industry's rather half-hearted effort to scrap route "any permitted". Because clearly, being told nothing at all (route dot) is better than being told you can take any permitted route. Figure that one out!

A few years ago there was a promise to remove "railway jargon" like "London Terminals" and "any permitted". This is what it's got us.

 

[Watershed]

A few years ago there was a promise to remove "railway jargon" like "London Terminals" and "any permitted". This is what it's got us.

Precisely. A half-hearted effort that has caused more problems than it has solved. For example the London Terminals data feed professes to comprehensively list valid London Terminals yet has many ommissions.

 

[Jason12]

I would not disagree that in many respects the industry makes problems for its customers. Changing the text description of route code 00000 would be one thing, but having two distinctly different, but equivalent route codes seems like a typical rail industry bodge. Confusing for the customer, ambiguous for systems which have to interpret the routeing data and ultimately of little value to anyone.

But in this instance, I think it's unfair to point to the existence of the two differently routed fares as the reason the OP was sold the wrong ticket.

After all, as the OP says, when their ticket has been purchased from the ticket machines at Bristol, despite the existence of the two differently priced and restricted, but equivalently routed fares, that system offered the one with the appropriate, lower, fare. It was only when the ticket had to be purchased from a person using a portable ticket machine, that the error was made. So it looks like a problem in the implementation of a search for fares on that portable system, or a lack of understanding of the system by the person using it.

 

[pne]

Suggestions on a post card for a simpler system which doesn't introduce anomalies or penalise passengers with higher fares than current and is largely revenue neutral.

The last two are surely mutually exclusive?

If the system is intended to be revenue neutral then if some prices come down, others must go up ("penalis[ing] passengers with higher fares").

 

[najaB]

The last two are surely mutually exclusive?

Yet that is what 'the people' want.

 

[Dai Corner]

The last two are surely mutually exclusive?

If the system is intended to be revenue neutral then if some prices come down, others must go up ("penalis[ing] passengers with higher fares").

Fewer passengers paying higher fares could be revenue neutral.

 

[BayPaul]

Fewer passengers paying higher fares could be revenue neutral.

As could more passengers paying lower fares. I think a nationwide shift to contactless is the answer to this one - simple to use, cheap to manage, and likely to increase ridership sufficiently to offset those fares that have dropped.

 

[Vespa]

Any updates from the OP ?

It would be nice to know how the case has progressed.

 

[yorkie]

@Incogcyclist79 do you have any updates regarding this matter please?

If anyone wishes to make any proposals to change the fares structure, please do so by creating a new thread; it doesn't belong in this thread.

I will point out that it was attempts to ostensibly make things "simple" by fixing a perceived problem that didn't really exist, that actually created this mess in the first place.

 

[Incogcyclist79]

@Incogcyclist79 do you have any updates regarding this matter please?

If anyone wishes to make any proposals to change the fares structure, please do so by creating a new thread; it doesn't belong in this thread.

I will point out that it was attempts to ostensibly make things "simple" by fixing a perceived problem that didn't really exist, that actually created this mess in the first place.

Hi yorkie, I submitted a complaint via GWR's online complaint form outlining what happened and mentioning the points you outlined.

They have replied with the following;

Dear Mr.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway regarding staff complaint.

I'm sorry to learn you were unhappy with the ticket you were sold.

We put a lot of work into training our staff. This way we’re doing our best to make buying and using your ticket a smooth process. I hope you can understand that sometimes in busy environments that human errors can be made. We encourage customers to check their tickets to make sure that they have been sold exactly what they want.

I’m going to pass your comments on to the Station Manager. Then they’ll look to see if the staff member that sold you the ticket could do with more training in certain areas.

Yours sincerely,

Awa

Customer Support Advisor

Great Western Railway


There is no mention of any reimbursement and it all seems at bit of a 'wishy-washy' reply IMO.

Maybe if like TIL I was able to claim an £80 admin fee it might concentrate TOC's minds. It feels unfair their staff can make a human error but if a customer does they're hit in the pocket extortionately. Anyway that's probably for another thread...!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi yorkie, I submitted a complaint via GWR's online complaint form outlining what happened and mentioning the points you outlined.

They have replied with the following;

Dear Mr.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway regarding staff complaint.

I'm sorry to learn you were unhappy with the ticket you were sold.

We put a lot of work into training our staff. This way we’re doing our best to make buying and using your ticket a smooth process. I hope you can understand that sometimes in busy environments that human errors can be made. We encourage customers to check their tickets to make sure that they have been sold exactly what they want.

I’m going to pass your comments on to the Station Manager. Then they’ll look to see if the staff member that sold you the ticket could do with more training in certain areas.

Yours sincerely,

Awa

Customer Support Advisor

Great Western Railway


There is no mention of any reimbursement and it all seems at bit of a 'wishy-washy' reply IMO.

Maybe if like TIL I was able to claim an £80 admin fee it might concentrate TOC's minds. It feels unfair their staff can make a human error but if a customer does they're hit in the pocket extortionately. Anyway that's probably for another thread...!

I'd be e-mailing back and politely asking for the difference owed - but I'm not sure exactly how much it was from your OP - was it £1.80 or 30p or some other sum that would be said difference.

If 30p I'm not sure I'd ask though, esp if that ended up with you going on a peak time train with an off peak ticket however. Sorry as I might be confused as to what the end result actually should have been!

FWIW I don't think the explanation / content of their reply is that unreasonable really - tho of course you did try and check your ticket, since you sought clarification.

 

[AlterEgo]

For thirty pee and no bad consequences I would write it off.

 

[Watershed]

Hi yorkie, I submitted a complaint via GWR's online complaint form outlining what happened and mentioning the points you outlined.

They have replied with the following;

Dear Mr.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway regarding staff complaint.

I'm sorry to learn you were unhappy with the ticket you were sold.

We put a lot of work into training our staff. This way we’re doing our best to make buying and using your ticket a smooth process. I hope you can understand that sometimes in busy environments that human errors can be made. We encourage customers to check their tickets to make sure that they have been sold exactly what they want.

I’m going to pass your comments on to the Station Manager. Then they’ll look to see if the staff member that sold you the ticket could do with more training in certain areas.

Yours sincerely,

Awa

Customer Support Advisor

Great Western Railway


There is no mention of any reimbursement and it all seems at bit of a 'wishy-washy' reply IMO.

Maybe if like TIL I was able to claim an £80 admin fee it might concentrate TOC's minds. It feels unfair their staff can make a human error but if a customer does they're hit in the pocket extortionately. Anyway that's probably for another thread...!

Well, at least they have said they will pass it onto the Station Manager. Whether that actually makes it through to the member of staff concerned is another matter...

However, trying to excuse what happened by saying that 'staff can make mistakes' and then attempting to blame you is absolutely unacceptable. And the use of a non-apology is contemptible.

I would respond with something like this:

Dear Awa,

Thank you for your response. I must admit I am left rather unsatisfied by your response to my complaint.

Whilst I accept that staff do sometimes make mistakes, this is hardly a defence to overcharging - indeed I have no guarantee that you would treat me sympathetically, if I had made a mistake when buying my ticket.

Furthermore, I find it shocking that you suggest this incident was somehow my fault, by not checking my ticket when I was issued with it. In fact, I explicitly questioned the price that your member of staff was charging. She insisted it was correct; having little time until the train was due, I had no alternative but to pay what she was said was the correct fare.

I also note that you have failed to offer me reimbursement of the amount I was overcharged by.

I await your response addressing these issues.

Yours sincerely,

Obviously, whether you wish to pursue it further given that it is a matter of 30p is something you must decide for yourself.

 

[najaB]

However, trying to excuse what happened by saying that 'staff can make mistakes' and then attempting to blame you is absolutely unacceptable.

I don't read it as blaming the OP since, as you say, they did notice the issue at the time and said so in their complaint.

 

[Watershed]

I don't read it as blaming the OP since, as you say, they did notice the issue at the time and said so in their complaint.

If it's blaming the OP it's an unacceptable attempt at trying to shift the blame. And if it's not blaming the OP, then what is the point of mentioning it?

Either way it shouldn't be in there.

 

[yorkie]

Train companies have prosecuted people over amounts lower than 30p; I do wish we had a more even playing field, but sadly the entire system is very much stacked against the customer.