Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

[Walter Whigham]

Thanks, guys, for clarifying the training period. It enables me to put a handle on likely length of the "temporary" timetable which Nicola Sturgeon relied upon yesterday in First Minister's Questions at Holyrood.

 

[PaulMc7]

Thanks, guys, for clarifying the training period. It enables me to put a handle on likely length of the "temporary" timetable which Nicola Sturgeon relied upon yesterday in First Minister's Questions at Holyrood.

2 years if all goes well is probably about as soon as it could get better IMO unless all drivers do the overtime again. People can be mad all they want but nothing can really be done now. It is what it is.

 

[InOban]

Remember that there are a lot of trainees well through this training period, it shouldn't take very long before some 'get their wings'. AIUI that's what Scotrail are trying to do, get into the queue of people who have completed their 'classroom' studies.

 

[chesterred16]

If it was adequately staffed there would not even be a concept of rest day working, it doesn’t exist in most businesses

I disagree, it certainly does happen in most industries. And if you take steps to minimise it, the same staff who whinge about working overtime will suddenly whinge that there's no overtime. It's comical.

 

[43066]

Remember that there are a lot of trainees well through this training period, it shouldn't take very long before some 'get their wings'.

Not if they’ve been sitting around waiting for instructors for months on end. They will likely still be many months from finishing as the practical driving phase is by far the longest part of the training.

I disagree, it certainly does happen in most industries. And if you take steps to minimise it, the same staff who whinge about working overtime will suddenly whinge that there's no overtime. It's comical.

I can’t think of any other industry that is so reliant on overtime. Can you name any?

 

[Dunnideer]

I can’t think of any other industry that is so reliant on overtime. Can you name any?

It’s very hard to say either way without inside knowledge of other industries. For example I have absolutely no idea whether the pilots who’ll be flying me on holiday are working their rest days or not. Will the barman at the airport Wetherspoons be working 12 hours to cover for colleagues who are sick or on holiday? It’s impossible for us to know unless we see their roster. What about the person who fits the steering wheel to your new car in the factory?

On the other hand if you go for surgery as a private patient with BUPA or whoever then you’re pretty much guaranteed that your consultant will be working for their second employer on their day off from their NHS job.

 

[Kite159]

I can’t think of any other industry that is so reliant on overtime. Can you name any?

Ambulance service is quite reliant on overtime, quite a good earner for the staff with extra cash being thrown out to cover shifts if they want it.

Wouldn't be surprised if other areas of the NHS makes use of overtime to try and keep running, trying to save lives etc

 

[43066]

Ambulance service is quite reliant on overtime, quite a good earner for the staff with extra cash being thrown out to cover shifts if they want it.

To the same extent as the railway?

Wouldn't be surprised if other areas of the NHS makes use of overtime to try and keep running, trying to save lives etc

So you’re just guessing, in other words.

Oh yes those wonderful NHS heros, let me go and bang a pot outside to worship them.

Give me strength.

 

[DarloRich]

I can’t think of any other industry that is so reliant on overtime. Can you name any?

The old bill require a large amount of overtime and rest day working to keep the show on the road. No idea if it is more or less than the railway

 

[Kite159]

To the same extent as the railway?



So you’re just guessing, in other words.

Oh yes those wonderful NHS heros, let me go and bang a pot outside to worship them.

Give me strength.

£250 extra in addition to the normal salary paid at time and a half for a 12 hour overtime shift.

Of course Railway staff probably don't need to use the NHS as they earn enough to go private. So in their eyes the NHS and the staff isn't relevant.

 

[Deltic1961]

Ambulance service is quite reliant on overtime

Prison service too. They have the same issues as Scotrail regarding recruitment, retention and union interference. And of course a government ran business too. Seems all too common a theme.

 

[43066]

The old bill require a large amount of overtime and rest day working to keep the show on the road. No idea if it is more or less than the railway

Yet we never hear about police stations (or ambulance stations, or prisons) being effectively shut down due to lack of staff. That suggests to me that the railway is unusual in the extent of its reliance on overtime.

Of course Railway staff probably don't need to use the NHS as they earn enough to go private. So in their eyes the NHS and the staff isn't relevant.

Yes because rail staff all earn as much as premiership footballers don’t they, and it’s not as if there’s anyone working for the NHS creaming off a good salary, for relatively little work, doing jobs which have nothing to do with “saving lives” (I know a few).

On the other hand I also know people who have had to pay to go private (who can’t really afford it) to avoid being in chronic pain for long periods, because the NHS basically isn’t interested in treating anything other than Covid and serious life threatening illnesses.

 

[GLC]

Thanks, guys, for clarifying the training period. It enables me to put a handle on likely length of the "temporary" timetable which Nicola Sturgeon relied upon yesterday in First Minister's Questions at Holyrood.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61504782 Scotrail themselves have stated they expect sufficient numbers of drivers to be trained by October, and Jenny Gilruth has stated that 38 new drivers are to complete their training by the end of the summer, 55 by the end of the year, and 100 by June 2023.

 

[och aye]

Thanks, guys, for clarifying the training period. It enables me to put a handle on likely length of the "temporary" timetable which Nicola Sturgeon relied upon yesterday in First Minister's Questions at Holyrood.

According to Jenny Gilruth service cuts will ‘absolutely not’ last until next summer

Transport Minister: ScotRail service cuts will ‘absolutely not’ last until next summer

The nationalised rail operator will cut 700 services from Monday

www.heraldscotland.com

Transport minister Jenny Gilruth has insisted ScotRail services will “absolutely not” be reduced until summer 2023.

The nationalised rail operator will cut 700 services from Monday in response to train driver shortages caused by a disagreement with the union Aslef which has seen some drivers decline to work overtime or on rest days.

It is understood the temporary timetable could be in place for weeks and Ms Gilruth was questioned on Friday about whether a quick resolution is possible.

She was asked on BBC Radio Scotland’s Good Morning Scotland programme if the disruption can be temporary given ScotRail needs some 130 train drivers.

Ms Gilruth said 38 drivers are expected to be trained by the end of this summer, with the figure rising to 55 by the end of the year and to 100 by June 2023.

She was then asked if that means the reduced timetable will therefore be in place until the summer of next year.

 

[DarloRich]

Yet we never hear about police stations (or ambulance stations, or prisons) being effectively shut down due to lack of staff. That suggests to me that the railway is unusual in the extent of its reliance on overtime.

I think you might be seeing what you want to see. I know from people in the Police and Prisons that overtime and rest day working are the only things keeping the show on the road. I think you hit the nail on the head with one thing; we don't hear about the issues with the police because when you dial 999 for a serious matter they turn up.

The main difference with the railways is that there is an element of compulsion in RDW in these areas. I don't know enough about the health service but I would be very surprised if the whole thing was held together by over time, often unpaid.

 

[EMU303]

This might be a gross over-simplification so i'll be guided by those who understand this better than me ..... if there are 193 drivers being trained in the pipeline and 38 are due to qualify by the end of the summer = 20% of the 193, does that mean 20% of the 700 services cut can be re-instated by then? Or does 193 include some "buffer" which means we don't need to wait for all 193 before the 700 journey's cut are re-instated?
My interpretation of Jenny Gilruth's comment is that we don't need to wait until all 193 are in place .... but what assumptions are in place for retirement / drivers moving to other TOC's etc.........

 

[muz379]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

Whilst it might be 18 months to pass out on a couple of routes the more important thing is time taken to get a full route card because that is when you are fully productive . The quickest I've know from start date to full route card is 2 years and a smidge (maybe 6 weeks) .

I can’t think of any other industry that is so reliant on overtime. Can you name any?

I know when I worked in retail in a past life it was often the case that the doors were only kept open because of managers and staff working overtime. I was contracted to 20 hours a week but for as long as I wanted I worked 45/50 sometimed more many weeks working everyday.

Same in restaurants

 

[Ex-controller]

Thanks, guys, for clarifying the training period. It enables me to put a handle on likely length of the "temporary" timetable which Nicola Sturgeon relied upon yesterday in First Minister's Questions at Holyrood.

The temporary timetable will likely be for as long as the drivers refuse to work rest data or over time, which itself will likely be when they reach agreement over a new pay deal, and T&Cs etc. For all this is really farcical, it’s unlikely to last right through the summer.

On later points revertime, most logistical type roles generally rely on overtime availability to some extent due to the unpredictability of demand. I think the point is here that ScotRail have - in the union’s eyes - over relied on it. It’s also only become a talking point because the drivers have used their willingness to work overtime as a way to apply pressure when it comes to the current pay negotiations.

 

[Christmas]

Jenny Gilruth is a very optimistic woman. I personally know of at least two driving instructors at ScotRail are about to throw in the towel as soon as their present trainees have passed out and they are not alone. The only reason they are continuing as instructors is because it would be unfair on their trainees to leave them in the lurch.

Gilruth can promise all she wants but without instructors there will be very few new drivers. This is being caused by a combination of more risk for instructors, little reward and of course the present breakdown in relations.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Absolutely, if the pay deal doesn't get resolved DI's will just pack it in. Also it's much harder for trainees to get their hours in with this current timetable.

 

[duncanp]

Having the last train from Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh (and vice versa) at 22:15 is not going to encourage people to use the train for a night out.

Places like Kilmarnock are even worse with a last train from Glasgow Central at 19:33, and only 4 trains per day to Dumfries and Carlisle.

It doesn't encourage people to plan a holiday in Scotland this summer if the train service is going to be so user unfriendly.

And of course you have to hope that Scotrail are able to operate even this reduced timetable.

The longer this goes on, the more embarrassing it will be for the Scottish Government, who will no doubt try and blame anyone else but themselves for the situation.

 

[Davester50]

Jenny Gilruth is a very optimistic woman. I personally know of at least two driving instructors at ScotRail are about to throw in the towel as soon as their present trainees have passed out and they are not alone. The only reason they are continuing as instructors is because it would be unfair on their trainees to leave them in the lurch.

Gilruth can promise all she wants but without instructors there will be very few new drivers. This is being caused by a combination of more risk for instructors, little reward and of course the present breakdown in relations.

It's exactly why the Scottish Government were quite happy for Abellio to run the railway as they could give them a kicking every time there were problems.
Now it's on their plate, it's a different matter.

The problem was, their management of Abellio's contract has let ScotRail become a basket case, and trying to turn that around will take time.
They should have had better control over Abellio in the first place, to not let the railway become such a state, or taken them back much sooner when they had the chance, but they squandered that one too.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

RMT going to ballot the members now.

 

[320320]

Jenny Gilruth is a very optimistic woman. I personally know of at least two driving instructors at ScotRail are about to throw in the towel as soon as their present trainees have passed out and they are not alone. The only reason they are continuing as instructors is because it would be unfair on their trainees to leave them in the lurch.

Gilruth can promise all she wants but without instructors there will be very few new drivers. This is being caused by a combination of more risk for instructors, little reward and of course the present breakdown in relations.

The talk this morning was that the DI’s at 2 depots had told management they’ll no longer be training until the pay talks are resolved. I’d give it 1 or 2 weeks to filter through and there will be virtually no training taking place.

Jenny Gilruth may be reevaluating her timescales shortly.

 

[wobman]

It has been widely reported in the press that it typically takes 18 months to train a driver from scratch to being fully competent to operate on his or her own. I suspect that this is an exaggeration. Can anyone advise the length of time in Scotrail for training from scratch to being fully competent?

Pre covid training usually took around 12 months to then be a pqa driver, that's usually not competent on all routes though.
But due to covid effects training post covid can take from 18 months to 2 yrs for a driver to be competent, thats due to backlogs in training.

 

[och aye]

The talk this morning was that the DI’s at 2 depots had told management they’ll no longer be training until the pay talks are resolved. I’d give it 1 or 2 weeks to filter through and there will be virtually no training taking place.

Jenny Gilruth may be reevaluating her timescales shortly.

Perhaps Jenny Gilruth should do what her partner/girlfriend did and go on I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! and hope everything will have blown over when she gets booted out/wins.

 

[Number5]

Surely to goodness the temporary timetable itself must be rejigged to reflect the fact that, unlike the last time a temp timetable was introduced by Scotrail, we're not in a Covid lockdown?

They must have enough driving resources to maybe reduce frequency on most lines but to run a service until the end of the day.

 

[Speed43125]

Personally I think the withdrawal of late trains is perhaps the most irritating for me. In fact, having just caught the 2338 out of Queen Street more times than I'd like to admit I'd have hoped long term for if anything, later last trains.

The talk this morning was that the DI’s at 2 depots had told management they’ll no longer be training until the pay talks are resolved. I’d give it 1 or 2 weeks to filter through and there will be virtually no training taking place.

Jenny Gilruth may be reevaluating her timescales shortly.

And there I was thinking it'd hopefully be ok again when I get back home from uni at the end of June, So thanks for clarifying that all anyway.

£650 Volvo is going to come in handy I suspect.

I think you might be seeing what you want to see. I know from people in the Police and Prisons that overtime and rest day working are the only things keeping the show on the road. I think you hit the nail on the head with one thing; we don't hear about the issues with the police because when you dial 999 for a serious matter they turn up.

The main difference with the railways is that there is an element of compulsion in RDW in these areas. I don't know enough about the health service but I would be very surprised if the whole thing was held together by over time, often unpaid.

This is admittedly mostly in a different pay/responsibility bracket, but most jobs in retail and hospitability especially are firmly reliant on overtime work. I can tell you for a fact the Gleneagles Hotel relies on a very ambitious roster with frequent unpaid overtime well into the wee hours and often on consecutive days.

I have heard of similar tales with regard to oil workers in Aberdeen etc being asked to work irregular, but more intensive schedules instead the normal cyclical cycle with corresponding rest weeks.

 

[choochoochoo]

Absolutely, if the pay deal doesn't get resolved DI's will just pack it in. Also it's much harder for trainees to get their hours in with this current timetable.

Excellent point. Once disruption of this level kicks in, how are trainees meant to pick up all the trips/dark time/normal shunts they're meant to get done ?

Knowing the industry, they'll pass these trainees out with bare minimums and restrictions on their route/traction knowledge. Then wonder why incidents happen and why parts of jobs are still not covered due to lack of route/tractions knowledge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The talk this morning was that the DI’s at 2 depots had told management they’ll no longer be training until the pay talks are resolved. I’d give it 1 or 2 weeks to filter through and there will be virtually no training taking place.

Jenny Gilruth may be reevaluating her timescales shortly.

Is refusal to do part of your job role not gross misconduct? Sacking time. Yes, that will drag things out further but this attitude needs to go.