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Will there still be any Class 315s in service on Liverpool Street - Shenfield once the new Elizabeth Line service starts from Paddington to Abbey Wood on 24 May?
If I was to guess I would say yes there will be 3 and that they will be the 17:10, 17:40 and 18:10 departures from Liverpool Street since these are the only ones formed from ECS movements from Gidea Park, rather than service arrivals from Shenfield, but RTT still shows them as booked 345s at 90mph.
Don’t know about exact booked workings so can’t answer that question, but can confirm that 315s can (just about) keep to 345 timings. The lower top speed of the 315s makes no difference on the GEML because of the line speed.
Don’t know about exact booked workings so can’t answer that question, but can confirm that 315s can (just about) keep to 345 timings. The lower top speed of the 315s makes no difference on the GEML because of the line speed.
The acceleration of the PEPs remains impressive to this day when compared to some of the stock we still have to put up with, e.g. 319s or most Diesels.
Coincidentally, the off lease date on Eversholts stock for lease / disposal list has now been extended to September 2022 - April 2023, for the 6 remaining sets. Will they be kept as emergency spares in case a 345 fails and cannot be replaced on a diagram by another?
Erm yes they are. An all stations Liverpool St to Shenfield service was timed for 43 minutes for a 315, it’s now 41 minutes with 345s.
For many years 315s were 41 minutes Liverpool St to Shenfield all stations, but as passenger loadings grew it was increasingly difficult to keep time, so a few subtle adjustments were made which increased the running time by 2 minutes. Now with 345s that increase can be recouped.
Will there still be any Class 315s in service on Liverpool Street - Shenfield once the new Elizabeth Line service starts from Paddington to Abbey Wood on 24 May?
If I was to guess I would say yes there will be 3 and that they will be the 17:10, 17:40 and 18:10 departures from Liverpool Street since these are the only ones formed from ECS movements from Gidea Park, rather than service arrivals from Shenfield, but RTT still shows them as booked 345s at 90mph.
Guess again. In theory nothing changes just because the core is opening to passengers, so still look out for the 15.38 Shenfield to Liverpool St etc, but of course they are on borrowed time.
Coincidentally, the off lease date on Eversholts stock for lease / disposal list has now been extended to September 2022 - April 2023, for the 6 remaining sets. Will they be kept as emergency spares in case a 345 fails and cannot be replaced on a diagram by another?
Presumably they’re to keep a bit of slack in the fleet until the Elizabeth Line is fully integrated. Perhaps more likely is a 345 that fails in the tunnel will have to be replaced with one taken off the GEML.
Guess again. In theory nothing changes just because the core is opening to passengers, so still look out for the 15.38 Shenfield to Liverpool St etc, but of course they are on borrowed time.
The 15:38 Shenfield - Liverpool St then forms the 16:30 departure etc, but I am unaware of the diagrams so what other ones should I look for? I could of course just stand at Liverpool St in the evening peak until one turns up.
Presumably they’re to keep a bit of slack in the fleet until the Elizabeth Line is fully integrated. Perhaps more likely is a 345 that fails in the tunnel will have to be replaced with one taken off the GEML.
The 15:38 Shenfield - Liverpool St then forms the 16:30 departure etc, but I am unaware of the diagrams so what other ones should I look for? I could of course just stand at Liverpool St in the evening peak until one turns up.
Yes that‘s sort of the thinking. Having to keep some 7 car 345s for workings out of Paddington has given a few 315s a stay of execution.
Unless something goes wrong it is just the 16.30 LST-SNF to look for, which returns for the 18.15 LST-SNF. You can follow the diagram on Real Time Trains.
Yes that‘s sort of the thinking. Having to keep some 7 car 345s for workings out of Paddington has given a few 315s a stay of execution.
Unless something goes wrong it is just the 16.30 LST-SNF to look for, which returns for the 18.15 LST-SNF. You can follow the diagram on Real Time Trains.
Is that the only permanent 315 diagram? Are the other units retained only for potential 345 substitutions? Where do the units come from for the the times I initially guessed?
The above diagram is the only PM one, the 315s starting from Shenfield sidings. There is/was a single working into Liverpool Street in the morning peak, worked by different sets from the PM ones.
There have been occasional ad hoc 315 substitutions for 345s over recent weeks but these are rare now with so few 315s left.
On Friday 13/05, 315847 and 856 were the PM units in service, while 315837 and 857 were pan down at Aldersbrook. 315838 and 853 were on the PM diagram on Thursday 12/05.
Is that the only permanent 315 diagram? Are the other units retained only for potential 345 substitutions? Where do the units come from for the the times I initially guessed?
The three sets cycle round Ilford Depot, Aldersbrook CS and Shenfield. The 07.51 SNF-LST is the morning working, together with a standby train at Gidea Park.
You were correct that the trains you initially guessed come ECS from Gidea Park CS, just that they are 345s.
The above diagram is the only PM one, the 315s starting from Shenfield sidings. There is/was a single working into Liverpool Street in the morning peak, worked by different sets from the PM ones.
There have been occasional ad hoc 315 substitutions for 345s over recent weeks but these are rare now with so few 315s left.
On Friday 13/05, 315847 and 856 were the PM units in service, while 315837 and 857 were pan down at Aldersbrook. 315838 and 853 were on the PM diagram on Thursday 12/05.
The three sets cycle round Ilford Depot, Aldersbrook CS and Shenfield. The 07.51 SNF-LST is the morning working, together with a standby train at Gidea Park.
You were correct that the trains you initially guessed come ECS from Gidea Park CS, just that they are 345s.
Are there actually 6 remaining 4 car units, these being 315837, 838, 847, 853, 856 and 857, which always run in pairs? Did the services that start ECS from Gidea Park CS used to be 315s?
You can probably tell that I have sampled the PEPs on Merseyrail and am thinking of doing one from Liverpool Street.
I think it's bananas that they're keeping a sub fleet of old trains for one train per day in each direction. I'd think it'd be easier just to cancel those services if they can't manage to get a 345 on them.
Possibly. 315s were kept to mostly peak workings from May 21, but their use gradually declined as 9 car 345s became more prevalent once lengthened from 7 to 9 cars.
Don’t hang about then, before you know it the chance will have gone. You‘ll get a decent bit of speed on them between Liverpool St and Stratford, Chadwell Heath and Romford, and up the hill from Harold Wood to Brentwood.
Yes, that's correct. They haven't run in 4 car formation on the Shenfield line in over a decade.
The leasing company shows the expected withdrawal date as between September 2022 and April 2023, and reports elsewhere suggest they are still diagrammed until December. If you're going after them, and I recommend you do, I'd get down there before September just to be safe.
I think it's bananas that they're keeping a sub fleet of old trains for one train per day in each direction. I'd think it'd be easier just to cancel those services if they can't manage to get a 345 on them.
You could say it‘s bananas to a degree, and if there wasn’t a requirement for the 7 car 345s on the Great Western the 315s could possibly have been gone by now. As for cancelling a train though, that’s an even bigger banana. Services through Stratford are somewhat busy.
The leasing company shows the expected withdrawal date as between September 2022 and April 2023, and reports elsewhere suggest they are still diagrammed until December. If you're going after them, and I recommend you do, I'd get down there before September just to be safe.
The long term plan runs until the next timetable change in December, but the 315s could be replaced any time under short term planning if the 345 fleet availability stacks up. However the 345s haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory reliability wise so there would have to be good confidence in their future reliability before the 315s finally go.
I think it's bananas that they're keeping a sub fleet of old trains for one train per day in each direction. I'd think it'd be easier just to cancel those services if they can't manage to get a 345 on them.
I don’t. At one point they had a whole fleet of 315s which have been gradually taken out of service as they were no longer required and the last 6 continue to be required, creating a sub fleet. It might be easier to cancel a few trains, but if that resulted in a crowd forming at Liverpool Street then it wouldn’t be worth it.
Possibly. 315s were kept to mostly peak workings from May 21, but their use gradually declined as 9 car 345s became more prevalent once lengthened from 7 to 9 cars.
Presumably this was because equivalent passenger capacity could be provided by the longer 345s without requiring the increased frequency provided by the 315 extras.
Don’t hang about then, before you know it the chance will have gone. You‘ll get a decent bit of speed on them between Liverpool St and Stratford, Chadwell Heath and Romford, and up the hill from Harold Wood to Brentwood.
The leasing company shows the expected withdrawal date as between September 2022 and April 2023, and reports elsewhere suggest they are still diagrammed until December. If you're going after them, and I recommend you do, I'd get down there before September just to be safe.
I was planning on going next Tuesday, hence after the core section opens. Is that soon enough for you? I wonder if the 315s will be branded Elizabeth Line or remain TfL Rail.
Also, unlike the 507/508s, don’t the 315s retain their original interior?
You could say it‘s bananas to a degree, and if there wasn’t a requirement for the 7 car 345s on the Great Western the 315s could possibly have been gone by now. As for cancelling a train though, that’s an even bigger banana. Services through Stratford are somewhat busy.
This thread might last longer than I thought. With the tunnel ready, 345s can be moved through the tunnel, so when the last 3 7 cars from the GWR get lengthened, are they likely to be replaced by 9 car 345s from the GER, with those replaced by 315s?
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Also, 7 car 345s aren’t allowed in the tunnel, so what was the route for ECS/lengthening movements from the GER to the GWR and vice versa?
The 315s actually have no branding at all at present; the TfL Rail roundels were removed a couple of weeks ago. I doubt they'll receive Elizabeth Line roundels.
Also, unlike the 507/508s, don’t the 315s retain their original interior?
They're still fairly original with their as new seating, but there have been changes to the doors, window frames, decor, moquette and provision for wheelchairs.
Did they last run as 4 cars on the Romford - Upminster before that went over to 710s? I don’t know why GA couldn’t run it with a 755.
I think it's bananas that they're keeping a sub fleet of old trains for one train per day in each direction. I'd think it'd be easier just to cancel those services if they can't manage to get a 345 on them.
... and if the cancellation leads to overcrowding on other services, or, if you're a commuter and it affects your specific train home?
Has always happened, keeping older units in reserve for the peak. See, for example, some lines in the 80s which had mostly 455s, but EPBs in the peak. Or, other lines which had mostly VEPs, but HAPs in the peak. Should the EPB or HAP services have been cancelled because they needed old stock to run them and BR could have cut their maintenance costs by withdrawing more of the older units?
... and if the cancellation leads to overcrowding on other services, or, if you're a commuter and it affects your specific train home?
Has always happened, keeping older units in reserve for the peak. See, for example, some lines in the 80s which had mostly 455s, but EPBs in the peak. Or, other lines which had mostly VEPs, but HAPs in the peak. Should the EPB or HAP services been cancelled because they needed old stock to run them and BR could have cut their maintenance costs by withdrawing more of the older units?
My specific train home was most often the 1955 Waterloo to Alton which SWR have axed randomly. The difference being I have a half an hour wait rather than a six minute one which is soon to be even nore frequent than that. I’ll grant you if TFL are willing to lease the 315s for one service a day then that’s their choice.
My specific train home was most often the 1955 Waterloo to Alton which SWR have axed randomly. The difference being I have a half an hour wait rather than a six minute one which is soon to be even nore frequent than that. I’ll grant you if TFL are willing to lease the 315s for one service a day then that’s their choice.
For many years 315s were 41 minutes Liverpool St to Shenfield all stations, but as passenger loadings grew it was increasingly difficult to keep time, so a few subtle adjustments were made which increased the running time by 2 minutes. Now with 345s that increase can be recouped.
No everything is on 345 timings. The biggest risk with 315s is station dwell times, but in the grand scheme of things causes little issue in practice. It may impact slightly on right time performance figures but that impact is negligable.
Will there still be any Class 315s in service on Liverpool Street - Shenfield once the new Elizabeth Line service starts from Paddington to Abbey Wood on 24 May?
If I was to guess I would say yes there will be 3 and that they will be the 17:10, 17:40 and 18:10 departures from Liverpool Street since these are the only ones formed from ECS movements from Gidea Park, rather than service arrivals from Shenfield, but RTT still shows them as booked 345s at 90mph.
These are usually 345s which have come from Old Oak to Gidea Park during the day and then pop out into service during the peak. The 315 diagram enters service at Shenfield, hence why it's not an ECS movement to Liverpool Street.
These are usually 345s which have come from Old Oak to Gidea Park during the day and then pop out into service during the peak. The 315 diagram enters service at Shenfield, hence why it's not an ECS movement to Liverpool Street.
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