Tfw - Liverpool to Chester services

[geoffk]

I think there are certainly other instances where this accusation could be levelled against TfW, but I don't think it applies here. Merseyrail are now back to their pre-Covid 4tph between Chester and Liverpool, so whilst the TfW service is certainly quicker, its low frequency means it is only the fastest option if you are at the station immediately before the departure time. And so reducing it to 1tp2h doesn't have a massive effect on journeys between Chester and Liverpool.

Admittedly it is more of a problem for people making intermediate journeys, but in my experience of the service even pre-Covid, those could usually be counted on one hand.

I think it is more important for them to focus their resources on flows which would otherwise go unserved, e.g. Chester-Shrewsbury/Crewe.

I've only used it once and thought the Frodsham to Liverpool flow was quite decent.

 

[wobman]

I've only used it once and thought the Frodsham to Liverpool flow was quite decent.

I agree the services are quite busy now, nowhere near merseyrail numbers but like you say decent patronage

 

[Watershed]

Saveaways are valid in Merseyside (bus, train, ferry) and also up to Ormskirk and Chester (merseyrail train only).
The merseyrail day saver was introduced by merseyrail, basically to try and get some of the revenue that were being lost to saveaways. As much as Merseytravel may be unhappy with it they can't do a thing about it.

I'm sure there must be ways and means for them to prevent Merseyrail from selling it. Every time the concession agreement is amended (e.g. for a new fleet, station, requirement etc.) there is an opportunity to add in a relevant clause.

As far as I can tell, Merseytravel are simply reluctant to provide the requisite increase in funding which Merseyrail would demand in return. They would rather that the confusion and ripoffs continued.

 

[frodshamfella]

I have bought a ticket from South Parkway to Frodsham before, the seller said something like , are you going on the direct train....well yes of course .

 

[Watershed]

I have bought a ticket from South Parkway to Frodsham before, the seller said something like , are you going on the direct train....well yes of course .

Well I suppose it would be pretty unlikely to do the journey any other way now the direct service exists. At least for that journey it's just a choice of two fares - from Helsby to Liverpool there are no fewer than 5 different routes of fares: via Hooton, via Warrington, via Birkenhead, via Runcorn and Any Permitted (route dot)!

 

[Runningaround]

It'd be preferable for TFW to concentrate on strengthening the services it's already running first and then think of running England only routes that already have sufficiently good services such as Chester to Liverpool. Wrexham and North Wales coast passengers have got plenty of options now and will have more if the Borderlines service is strengthened.

 

[Statto]

Isn't the longer term plan to extend the Liverpool to Chester via Runcorn service, to & from the North Wales Coast, maybe Llandudno or somewhere else?

 

[krus_aragon]

Isn't the longer term plan to extend the Liverpool to Chester via Runcorn service, to & from the North Wales Coast, maybe Llandudno or somewhere else?

Yes, the service is planned to split in two at Chester and run to Llandudno (hourly) and Shrewsbury/Cardiff (alternating) once the 197s are all introduced. (ex-Manchester trains will run to Bangor instead.)

As Runningaround hints at, they can't introduce these additional services until they've got the stock and trained staff to do so.

 

[507020]

Well I suppose it would be pretty unlikely to do the journey any other way now the direct service exists. At least for that journey it's just a choice of two fares - from Helsby to Liverpool there are no fewer than 5 different routes of fares: via Hooton, via Warrington, via Birkenhead, via Runcorn and Any Permitted (route dot)!

What is the difference between via Birkenhead and via Hooton? Some of these would only be possible once or twice a day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2022 ==

Yes, the service is planned to split in two at Chester and run to Llandudno (hourly) and Shrewsbury/Cardiff (alternating) once the 197s are all introduced. (ex-Manchester trains will run to Bangor instead.)

As Runningaround hints at, they can't introduce these additional services until they've got the stock and trained staff to do so.

But what will run to Holyhead?

 

[krus_aragon]

But what will run to Holyhead?

The existing two-hourly services from each of Cardiff and Birmingham. (Three of the Cardiff services each way will be Mk4 rakes, as will some Manchester - South Wales; see https://railforums.co.uk/threads/timetable-implications-of-tfw-mk4-sets.230634/ for discussion of that aspect.)

 

[BeijingDave]

I think there are certainly other instances where this accusation could be levelled against TfW, but I don't think it applies here. Merseyrail are now back to their pre-Covid 4tph between Chester and Liverpool, so whilst the TfW service is certainly quicker, its low frequency means it is only the fastest option if you are at the station immediately before the departure time. And so reducing it to 1tp2h doesn't have a massive effect on journeys between Chester and Liverpool.

Admittedly it is more of a problem for people making intermediate journeys, but in my experience of the service even pre-Covid, those could usually be counted on one hand.

I think it is more important for them to focus their resources on flows which would otherwise go unserved, e.g. Chester-Shrewsbury/Crewe.

Agreed. I think most Cestrians would use the Chester-Liverpool via Runcorn as a quicker train in and out of Liverpool at key commute times.

Other than that, the Wirral Line service is more than adequate, especially as Cestrians don't need to get to Liverpool for WCML connections (Crewe and Warrington serve that purpose).

 

[Statto]

I would think most Cestrians that commute to Liverpool would buy the Merseytravel railpass, & travel via Hooton instead, the all area countywide pass is £126 a month or £1267.30 for an annual pass, not sure how much the via Runcorn pass is.

You also factor in train frequency, Merseyrail is back to 4tph Chester to Liverpool, were as the via Runcorn service is 1 every 2 hours at the moment, even back to normal that'd be 1 every hour, plus Merseyrail is only a few minutes longer

 

[Runningaround]

Yes, the service is planned to split in two at Chester and run to Llandudno (hourly) and Shrewsbury/Cardiff (alternating) once the 197s are all introduced. (ex-Manchester trains will run to Bangor instead.)

As Runningaround hints at, they can't introduce these additional services until they've got the stock and trained staff to do so.

Cardiff to Chester, many going onto Liverpool (perhaps TFW want to take them all the way) North Wales to South and the borders are getting busier and could be growing beyond what was expected when they ordered new trains. And if the 197's are only partly ERTMS they are still going to be juggling units and passengers at Shrewsbury and Chester to ensure they've got the right unit for the Cambrian.
As mentioned before they often do this at both from/to the furthest platforms possible and park the trains at the furthest point.
Are TFW committing to the ''Walk More'' campaigns

 

[krus_aragon]

And if the 197's are only partly ERTMS they are still going to be juggling units and passengers at Shrewsbury and Chester to ensure they've got the right unit for the Cambrian

There appears to be an intention to tweak the current timetable which sees an ex-Cambrian unit at Brimingham form the next service to Holyhead, in order to concentrate all ERTMS units on Birmingham-Cambrian services, leaving Holyhead-Birmingham to be covered by the same non-ERTMS units as Liverpool-Llandudno/Cardiff etc.

Pre Covid, there was an application for extending Brimingham services through to Coventry; the extra turnaround time would uncouple the Holyhead and Cambrian services at the cost of one extra diagram. (The application was withdrawn days later, for unknown reasons.) See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw’s-new-service-from-december-2020.184122/

 

[Watershed]

What is the difference between via Birkenhead and via Hooton? Some of these would only be possible once or twice a day.

Well nothing, in essence! Both permit travel via Chester, in case you're thinking that they're only valid via Ellesmere Port. It's just an example of how some journeys have a ludicrous number of routes.

I would think most Cestrians that commute to Liverpool would buy the Merseytravel railpass, & travel via Hooton instead, the all area countywide pass is £126 a month or £1267.30 for an annual pass, not sure how much the via Runcorn pass is.

A season ticket for the TfW service is actually slightly cheaper (deliberately so, I expect) at £122.50 a month. An annual Merseyrail is slightly cheaper at £1267 vs £1276. Of course the Merseyrail offers much greater validity in terms of mileage, but if you commonly travel to Manchester for example, the TfW season would have more value as it's valid until Frodsham, whenceforth a ticket is a fair bit cheaper than from Chester.

 

[frodshamfella]

Isn't the longer term plan to extend the Liverpool to Chester via Runcorn service, to & from the North Wales Coast, maybe Llandudno or somewhere else?

That is so, its taking a long time restabishing the Liverpool to North Wales link.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2022 ==

Agreed. I think most Cestrians would use the Chester-Liverpool via Runcorn as a quicker train in and out of Liverpool at key commute times.

Other than that, the Wirral Line service is more than adequate, especially as Cestrians don't need to get to Liverpool for WCML connections (Crewe and Warrington serve that purpose).

However i can confirm because i am a regular passenger , from Frodsham to Liverpool has taken off well and presumably Helsby too, even with the sub standard timetable at present.

 

[anthony263]

Yes, the service is planned to split in two at Chester and run to Llandudno (hourly) and Shrewsbury/Cardiff (alternating) once the 197s are all introduced. (ex-Manchester trains will run to Bangor instead.)

As Runningaround hints at, they can't introduce these additional services until they've got the stock and trained staff to do so.

Is the one plan still to run a Liverpool to Cardiff service every 2 hours between the Holyhead to Cardiff services as I’ve heard talk locally that tfw have decided to drop it in favour of terminating them at Shrewsbury

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is the one plan still to run a Liverpool to Cardiff service every 2 hours between the Holyhead to Cardiff services as I’ve heard talk locally that tfw have decided to drop it in favour of terminating them at Shrewsbury

Last I heard was hourly 4-197 dividing at Chester. 2 go forward to Llandudno, 2 go forward to Shrewsbury continuing to Cardiff every 2 hours.

I assume it would alternate with Holyhead Cardiff, although they’d probably clash with Holyhead Birmingham between Chester and Shrewsbury so I don’t know how that would work.

 

[krus_aragon]

Is the one plan still to run a Liverpool to Cardiff service every 2 hours between the Holyhead to Cardiff services as I’ve heard talk locally that tfw have decided to drop it in favour of terminating them at Shrewsbury

I have no information on that beyond what was announced at the launch of the franchise, and I'm not privy to any inside information.

Doing some digging around in public material, the update on the timescale of new services (published last September) stated the following:

• Liverpool to Llandudno (new hourly service) – Will be delivered by December 2023 (revised)
• ...
• Hourly service between Liverpool and Shrewsbury – Will be delivered by December 2024

The lack of mention of Liverpool-Cardiff here appears to corroborate your statement. It may be that it's no longer planned to happen, or that it's been kicked into the long grass, and they don't want to brag about services that they won't actually deliver for several years (or don't even have a date for).

 

[Llandudno]

That is so, its taking a long time restabishing the Liverpool to North Wales link.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2022 ==


However i can confirm because i am a regular passenger , from Frodsham to Liverpool has taken off well and presumably Helsby too, even with the sub standard timetable at present.

A pal of mine travelled on the Chester - Runcorn - Liverpool service yesterday and TfW provided a refreshment trolley!

I wish TfW would concentrate their efforts in restoring the hourly frequency and restoration of the last trains in the evening rather than trying to sell a few cups of tea on a trip that takes 45 minutes at the most!

 

[Eccles1983]

A pal of mine travelled on the Chester - Runcorn - Liverpool service yesterday and TfW provided a refreshment trolley!

I wish TfW would concentrate their efforts in restoring the hourly frequency and restoration of the last trains in the evening rather than trying to sell a few cups of tea on a trip that takes 45 minutes at the most!

I've got surprising news for you.

The trolley staff can't drive trains, so where they pop up is of zero relevance to restoring trains.

 

[krus_aragon]

A pal of mine travelled on the Chester - Runcorn - Liverpool service yesterday and TfW provided a refreshment trolley!

I wish TfW would concentrate their efforts in restoring the hourly frequency and restoration of the last trains in the evening rather than trying to sell a few cups of tea on a trip that takes 45 minutes at the most!

I doubt many of those tea-sellers are qualified to drive the train, though.

 

[wobman]

Tfw are keeping the extra Chester to Liverpool paths for testing & training on the new 197s, they are saying the new units will be running from September in service.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

A pal of mine travelled on the Chester - Runcorn - Liverpool service yesterday and TfW provided a refreshment trolley!

I wish TfW would concentrate their efforts in restoring the hourly frequency and restoration of the last trains in the evening rather than trying to sell a few cups of tea on a trip that takes 45 minutes at the most!

Refreshment trolleys aren’t booked on Lime Street services, it only occurs if a Manchester/Holyhead etc is full and standing and the trolley cannot board so they go on another service instead of doing nothing.

 

[Llandudno]

Refreshment trolleys aren’t booked on Lime Street services, it only occurs if a Manchester/Holyhead etc is full and standing and the trolley cannot board so they go on another service instead of doing nothing.

In which case my pals at Frodsham en-route to Liverpool will get the opportunity to enjoy the catering experience quite frequently this summer….!

 

[childwallblues]

The TfW Lime Street - Chester services are 175s, not 150s

Actually the service seems to be anything that is available at Chester. The last three Sundays it was 158 175 and 150. Prior to that it was a pair of 153s for ages.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Actually the service seems to be anything that is available at Chester. The last three Sundays it was 158 175 and 150. Prior to that it was a pair of 153s for ages.

Indeed! I often look out for what’s on them at the bottom of my garden!

 

[frodshamfella]

A pal of mine travelled on the Chester - Runcorn - Liverpool service yesterday and TfW provided a refreshment trolley!

I wish TfW would concentrate their efforts in restoring the hourly frequency and restoration of the last trains in the evening rather than trying to sell a few cups of tea on a trip that takes 45 minutes at the most!

Yes i've seen a refreshment trolley occasionally, but as you say, id much prefer the hourly service back asap.

 

[wobman]

Yes i've seen a refreshment trolley occasionally, but as you say, id much prefer the hourly service back asap.

Unfortunately tfw just don't have the units and that path is for the 197 training / testing apparently.

 

[frodshamfella]

Unfortunately tfw just don't have the units and that path is for the 197 training / testing apparently.

But they did before the pandemic.