Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[Bletchleyite]

But, while I agree, that's a practical point. It doesn't affect whether it is right to have such things in the first place.

Perhaps we have rather too many laws to begin with, if the system can't cope with the number of people breaking them?

I don't see a massive problem with statutory FPNs. If you know you're guilty you can pay up. If you wish to challenge it, you can choose to have your day in Court.

 

[Typhoon]

Assuming this is true, it is plain stupid.

The entire executive committee of Wakefield’s local Labour group has resigned in a row over the party’s candidate selection for an upcoming by-election.

The constituency Labour Party’s executive say they are quitting en masse in protest at the lack of a local candidate.

Members have also accused the National Executive Committee (NEC) of not keeping to the party’s rules about by-elections.

A statement from the Wakefield Constituency Labour Party (CLP) said: “We asked for local candidates, but there are none.

“Three prominent council and local Labour candidates, including the deputy council leader didn’t even make it onto the ‘long list’.

“A short list of four was requested by our representative on the panel to give members some choice but the NEC members insisted on just two.”

It added: “Representations to Party Officials at the highest level have got absolutely nowhere with some queries not even answered.

“As a consequence, the constituency executive (comprised of local branch representatives and constituency officers) decided last night to resign en bloc with effect from the Sunday selection meeting.”

They also said the party’s rulebook states that the five-person selection panel should include three people chosen by the local Labour Party, with one each from the NEC and the Yorkshire region.

“The rules say there should be a week between publication of Shortlist and the vote, so members can find out about the candidates and a chance to think about their choice.

“The NEC have given two clear days.”

I have no idea whether Wakefield is a Momentum hotbed but, given the domination of Labour on the local council, a failure to win the seat back will be seen as a defeat so the party seems to go out of its way to irritate locals and demonstrate a divided front. The right wing press will lap it up!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...sedgntp&cvid=6aa81f8b95e949efbdd33c44c856cd0b

 

[Gloster]

Ah, just like the old days. Just when Labour is needed and has a chance of doing something useful the infighting starts.

 

[brad465]

Assuming this is true, it is plain stupid.

I have no idea whether Wakefield is a Momentum hotbed but, given the domination of Labour on the local council, a failure to win the seat back will be seen as a defeat so the party seems to go out of its way to irritate locals and demonstrate a divided front. The right wing press will lap it up!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...sedgntp&cvid=6aa81f8b95e949efbdd33c44c856cd0b

The two candidates left on the shortlist are still relatively local, in that they both appear to be from Yorkshire (not sure where exactly), so I do wonder if the CLP there are being too demanding.

 

[TheBigD]

Local party wanted a local lad, (corbynite) Jack Hemingway, but were blocked. Leadership want a shortlist of 2, neither of which are from or live in Wakefield.

 

[Typhoon]

The two candidates left on the shortlist are still relatively local, in that they both appear to be from Yorkshire (not sure where exactly), so I do wonder if the CLP there are being too demanding.

Yorkshire is a big county. I'm also interested in what they do, are they special advisor to the Shadow Secretary of State for Administrative Affairs or do they have a real job. And would it really hurt to put a local on the short list and unfortunately, with such a strong field we found that someone else was the outstanding candidate. This is a 'must win' for Labour. The Lib Dems have come nowhere in the past. If the Conservatives retain the seat, Johnson will be back on the up, council losses will be forgotten. I may be wrong but I believe it has been almost ten years since there has been a Labour gain (Peterborough doesn't count).

Local party wanted a local lad, (corbynite) Jack Hemingway, but were blocked. Leadership want a shortlist of 2, neither of which are from or live in Wakefield.

Understandable, none of the other locals up to it? At least one is on the 'Future Candidates Programme'.

 

[Yew]

Assuming this is true, it is plain stupid.

I have no idea whether Wakefield is a Momentum hotbed but, given the domination of Labour on the local council, a failure to win the seat back will be seen as a defeat so the party seems to go out of its way to irritate locals and demonstrate a divided front. The right wing press will lap it up!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...sedgntp&cvid=6aa81f8b95e949efbdd33c44c856cd0b

My understanding is that the complaint is that locals had complained about candidates being parachuted in, and then Starmer parachuted another candidate in after saying that he wouldn't do that when he was running for leader.

 

[nw1]

My understanding is that the complaint is that locals had complained about candidates being parachuted in, and then Starmer parachuted another candidate in after saying that he wouldn't do that when he was running for leader.

Though do they really want a Corbynite in, local or not?

Given it's a slightly-Tory area, presumably a Corbynite wouldn't be a great idea as I get the impression part of the reason why Red Wall Land rejected Labour last time was the dislike of Corbyn.

And local doesn't necessarily equal good, as we have seen with Mr "30p-a-day" (forgotten his name already, sorry...), the Tory MP in Ashfield.

I agree that Labour do need to win this, ideally. But if the Tories do win, maybe rather than being a disaster for Labour, it simply shows that they need to re-focus on different types of seat, and it's just the nature of the modern political map that places like Wakefield are becoming increasingly Tory, and that Labour need to accept this. Rather like the Democrats appear to have accepted that West Virginia is no longer "theirs" and have focused their attention elsewhere.

 

[Typhoon]

My understanding is that the complaint is that locals had complained about candidates being parachuted in, and then Starmer parachuted another candidate in after saying that he wouldn't do that when he was running for leader.

I can understand that. Without looking back at the local election thread, there were posters saying that they predicted/ hoped Labour would lose seats/ control because the council was taking them for granted. They lost control of Hull, not a million miles away. The lesson has not been learnt. The Conservatives in North Shropshire were just as bad. While it is not as bad as previously (Labour under Blair/ Conservatives under Cameron), by and large voters don't want an 'outstanding candidate', which probably means they will be fast-tracked into government/ a shadow job in no time and the best place to see what they look like will be on Newsnight or Good Morning Britain. They want a candidate who has some understanding of the constituency (not what they've read 10 minutes before an interview), not generally, 'There is a cost of living crisis' but specifically, for instance the implications the implications of Brexit for textiles/ food processing, some knowledge of the steel industry in the UK and whether its current status is affecting welding and fabrication industries, are there any long term effects on residents of the mining that took place in the area, to know about Wakefield First and what it does - and rhubarb! (No local knowledge - all of this was found with an internet search.) Part of the reason the Lib Dems do well is that they generate candidates and support locally and 'locally' here does not mean lived in Wakefield twenty years ago but has lived in Highgate since graduating from the LSE.

Though do they really want a Corbynite in, local or not?

Given it's a slightly-Tory area, presumably a Corbynite wouldn't be a great idea as I get the impression part of the reason why Red Wall Land rejected Labour last time was the dislike of Corbyn.

And local doesn't necessarily equal good, as we have seen with Mr "30p-a-day" (forgotten his name already, sorry...), the Tory MP in Ashfield.

I agree that Labour do need to win this, ideally. But if the Tories do win, maybe rather than being a disaster for Labour, it simply shows that they need to re-focus on different types of seat, and it's just the nature of the modern political map that places like Wakefield are becoming increasingly Tory, and that Labour need to accept this. Rather like the Democrats appear to have accepted that West Virginia is no longer "theirs" and have focused their attention elsewhere.

There were, I think, three locals who put themselves forward. One who did, has pictures and video clips of Starmer on his Facebook page. He might be somewhere left of Derek Hatton for all I know but on the face of it seems OK, interested and active. At least give him a run by short listing him - or another moderate local). The previous successful Labour MP was Mary Creagh, formerly an Islington Councillor. I agree with you about Hemingway, his record on anti-semitism is not spotless!
Wakefield council has 45 Labour councillors, the rest have 18!
(His name is Lee Anderson - there was an interview with him on Broadcasting House (Radio 4) this morning. He was antagonistic from the start, the interviewer was Jane Garvey, who is experienced enough to let him demonstrate his aggression, which tarnished the good news of what was being achieved.)

 

[Gloster]

The behaviour of the local party could even turn to Labour’s advantage, although I concede that it is not very likely (partly due to the way the papers will report it). If the local Labour Party is seen as out of touch, inefficient, Corbyn-friendly, or whatever, the new candidate has the opportunity to distance themselves from it and establish a separate identity. Of course, there is the risk that there won’t be many local supporters pounding the streets, but it is a by-election so there should be supporters available who can be bussed in from nearby constituencies. And there is the possibility of a disgruntled group putting up their own candidate (do I see George Galloway’s ears pricking up).

 

[brad465]

The behaviour of the local party could even turn to Labour’s advantage, although I concede that it is not very likely (partly due to the way the papers will report it). If the local Labour Party is seen as out of touch, inefficient, Corbyn-friendly, or whatever, the new candidate has the opportunity to distance themselves from it and establish a separate identity. Of course, there is the risk that there won’t be many local supporters pounding the streets, but it is a by-election so there should be supporters available who can be bussed in from nearby constituencies. And there is the possibility of a disgruntled group putting up their own candidate (do I see George Galloway’s ears pricking up).

I would not be surprised if Galloway tried, but that didn't seem to work out last year, and he may have actually taken potential Tory voters.

 

[317 forever]

So they've lost one and gained three in London. Again, not great but not bad.

(Apologies, didn't realise they'd lost others - I think I assumed Harrow was formerly NOC. Even still my point stands).



It wasn't the majority of the electorate, that is a very common misrepresentation of the result. Only 37% voted for Brexit, admittedly more than remain, but almost a third didn't vote. Essentially 13 for, 12 against, and many didn't care. Surely in that sort of situation, one of the parties - probably the opposition - should be supporting the 12?

The Liberal Democrats did support the 12. They even pledged in 2019 to revoke Article 50 and thus scrap Brexit if elected.

 

[DarloRich]

Local party wanted a local lad, (corbynite) Jack Hemingway, but were blocked. Leadership want a shortlist of 2, neither of which are from or live in Wakefield.

There is your problem - we don't need anymore Corbyn clowns. There also didn't seem to be much criticism from said Corbyn clowns when thier men/women were dropped into constituencies ahead of local candidates.

 

[ainsworth74]

Given it's a slightly-Tory area, presumably a Corbynite wouldn't be a great idea as I get the impression part of the reason why Red Wall Land rejected Labour last time was the dislike of Corbyn.

I'm not sure Corbynites care about winning more than they care about ideological purity and loyalty to the one true leader.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not sure Corbynites care about winning more than they care about ideological purity and loyalty to the one true leader.

Exactly - that is why they have been working with the Daily Mail to try and concoct a story about Starmer. They don't want to win. They want to hear warm words that reinforce thier views. The compromises required to win an election are an anathema and a sign of weakness.

 

[TheBigD]

Labour have now selected former staffer to ex-MP Mary Creagh, Simon Lightwood as the candidate for Wakefield.

 

[nw1]

Labour have now selected former staffer to ex-MP Mary Creagh, Simon Lightwood as the candidate for Wakefield.

Time then for Labour to stop the in-fighting and just get him in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2022 ==

Exactly - that is why they have been working with the Daily Mail to try and concoct a story about Starmer. They don't want to win. They want to hear warm words that reinforce thier views. The compromises required to win an election are an anathema and a sign of weakness.

If this is actually true it shows that some of these Corbynites are really the lowest of the low. Do they not realise how they are helping Johnson and keeping a hardline right-wing government in power? Or maybe they don't care, because they see soft-left Labour people as a greater enemy than hard-right Tories?

Judean People's Front, that's all I can say.

Maybe they should form their own party, the "Momentum Party", and use a fusion of the hammer and sickle and the old Tory torch as a logo.

 

[Busaholic]

Time then for Labour to stop the in-fighting and just get him in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2022 ==



If this is actually true it shows that some of these Corbynites are really the lowest of the low. Do they not realise how they are helping Johnson and keeping a hardline right-wing government in power? Or maybe they don't care, because they see soft-left Labour people as a greater enemy than hard-right Tories?

Judean People's Front, that's all I can say.

Maybe they should form their own party, the "Momentum Party", and use a fusion of the hammer and sickle and the old Tory torch as a logo.

Not only Corbyn, of course. He's just the 'front' for the much nastier and more lethal Livingstone and Galloway, maybe Brother Piers Corbyn as well. Not forgetting Diane Abbott too.

 

[nw1]

Not only Corbyn, of course. He's just the 'front' for the much nastier and more lethal Livingstone and Galloway, maybe Brother Piers Corbyn as well. Not forgetting Diane Abbott too.

I'd class Galloway as far-right if anything. Doesn't even pretend to be Labour these days.

 

[Meole]

Wakefield is becoming a dormitory for Leeds, ridership from Westgate there has risen dramatically.

 

[Busaholic]

I'd class Galloway as far-right if anything. Doesn't even pretend to be Labour these days.

He'd say he was 'true' Labour and the party has abandoned its principles to move rightwards: at least, that's what he'd say for public consumption. I said once on here that in the sixty odd years I've been following British politics, there have been a handful of politicians who I considered to be actual or near fascists, and two, possibly three,among them represented Labour in Parliament. Not all of them are dead, so I'm being careful not to name them.

 

[nw1]

He'd say he was 'true' Labour and the party has abandoned its principles to move rightwards: at least, that's what he'd say for public consumption.

With Galloway it's the things discussed, for example, in this article: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/03/talkradio-sacks-george-galloway , as well as the cozying up to Farage in the 2019 European elections, which make me consider he's firmly to the right of the political spectrum.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any intimation from the Durham Constabulary when their investigations into the Starmer attendance at that gathering might be forthcoming?

 

[Gloster]

Any intimation from the Durham Constabulary when their investigations into the Starmer attendance at that gathering might be forthcoming?

Probably not. If there were it would be all over the Daily M**l.

 

[317 forever]

It is interesting to compare Labour's recent performance in elections with 1994/95.

In the 1995 local elections their vote share was 20% ahead of the Tories' share. In 2022 it was a more modest 5%.

The Wakefield by-election was in a similar marginal seat to Dudley West in 1994. At Dudley West Labour achieved a 29% swing while the Tories had a majority of 21 at the most recent General Election. By comparison, at Wakefield Labour achieved just under a 13% swing, after the Tories had a majority of 80 at the most recent GE. So, slower progress from a weaker starting point.

Whereas by 1994/95 Labour had become a popular alternative party, in 2022 so far they are at best seen as a safe alternative.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is interesting to compare Labour's recent performance in elections with 1994/95.

In the 1995 local elections their vote share was 20% ahead of the Tories' share. In 2022 it was a more modest 5%.

The Wakefield by-election was in a similar marginal seat to Dudley West in 1994. At Dudley West Labour achieved a 29% swing while the Tories had a majority of 21 at the most recent General Election. By comparison, at Wakefield Labour achieved just under a 13% swing, after the Tories had a majority of 80 at the most recent GE. So, slower progress from a weaker starting point.

Whereas by 1994/95 Labour had become a popular alternative party, in 2022 so far they are at best seen as a safe alternative.

Indeed it wasn't a stellar result in Wakefield and I feel Labour are really wallowing around without a really clear understanding of who their likely supporters are and how to target them. Brexit voters aren't going to switch back to Labour readily so the red wall seats won't fall easily.

 

[thenorthern]

Regarding Wakefield remember this is the first time Labour has gained a seat in a by election since 2012 and only the second one since 1997 (Unless you count Glasgow North East in 2009). Just let that sink in that the opposition hadn't won a by election for 10 years.

Starmer is brining the party back to realistic politics after 5 years of Corbyn although Starmer has a long way to go.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There were once the Ancient Days of Yore when such was the national support for the Labour Party when matters such as "being in a Coalition" was never even considered, as that party always looked to return with a healthy overall majority. It was the 1977 Lib-Lab pact that saw support for the Labour Party substantially reduce and a short period of time after that, helped no doubt by the "Winter of Discontent", that the Conservative Party came to office.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2022 ==

Regarding Wakefield remember this is the first time Labour has gained a seat in a by election since 2012 and only the second one since 1997 (Unless you count Glasgow North East in 2009). Just let that sink in that the opposition hadn't won a by election for 10 years.

Starmer is brining the party back to realistic politics after 5 years of Corbyn although Starmer has a long way to go.

Would Starmer have the courage to oversee the total removal of Momentum power within the Labour Party?

 

[GS250]

Indeed it wasn't a stellar result in Wakefield and I feel Labour are really wallowing around without a really clear understanding of who their likely supporters are and how to target them. Brexit voters aren't going to switch back to Labour readily so the red wall seats won't fall easily.

I think some will return to Labour. In 2017 quite a few brexit supporters voted for Labour of which denied Teresa May a majority. I guess they were under the illusion that Labour were going to execute a 'full' brexit with a deal. Given that Corbyn was played up as being something of a Eurosceptic in the past I can see why they believed this. However....as the more swanky 'momentum' types decided (with some justification) that they were appalled by Brexit, then the waters became very muddied. I've no idea what Labour would have done with a Brexit had it somehow achieved power in 2019. Another referendum maybe?

 

[brad465]

Would Starmer have the courage to oversee the total removal of Momentum power within the Labour Party?

If he introduces Proportional Representation it's entirely possible that Momentum would decide to form a new party knowing they might get votes with representation, unlike under FPTP where their best hope is to hijack a mainstream party. This would benefit the remaining Labour party as it no longer looks divided and those fearful of Momentum would be more likely to vote for it.