Should class 180s be banned from the ECML?

[yorkie]

Following posts made in the following thread:

Grand Central train stopped due to fault near Welwyn

Grand Central Class 180 Train stopped under red light under Lyles Lane WGC with engines still running. All Southbound services routed onto slow lines. Northbound lines running ok. 1652546969 1652547203 Signal 620 Headcode 5A61

www.railforums.co.uk

These 180s seem to be causing more and more issues. Not to mention that they’re the last diesel trains into Kings Cross. I think the last few incidents just further reinforce the point that the 180s need replacing.

..., it seems to me that these notoriously unreliable 180s should never have been allowed to start on the ECML. It would be stuffed enough even without these units and all their attendant risks.

To keep that thread on topic, the question is posed in this section: should class 180 diesel multiple units be banned from the East Coast Main Line?

 

[JonathanH]

If there were a proposal to ban 180s from the ECML would they be welcome anywhere else?

Is disruption on the ECML less acceptable than other lines or is the reason for the concern that the ECML has a greater proportion of two track railway than other routes?

Is the question better put as 'Should class 180s be banned?'

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think they necessarily should be banned but Grand Central should be strongly encouraged to replace them. Preferably with bimodes considering the significant amount of milage they operate under wires.

 

[yorksrob]

And yet these units were deemed suitable to replace HST traction on the Midland Mainline.

Whoever makes these decisions is not working in the interest of passengers.

 

[Magdalia]

Is disruption on the ECML less acceptable than other lines or is the reason for the concern that the ECML has a greater proportion of two track railway than other routes?

'

Yes.

Today's incident came close to blocking the 2 track section between Woolmer Green and Digswell.

It was also fortunate that the incident did not occur on a weekday.

 

[MrB]

Bimode hitachis would be the obvious replacement.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Yes.

Today's incident came close to blocking the 2 track section between Woolmer Green and Digswell.

It was also fortunate that the incident did not occur on a weekday.

There is always the Hertford Loop... the 2 track section isn't as much as a liability as it's made out to be.

Sure, it'll be slower, and some metro services may have to be reduced in frequency - but it's not a total loss of the southern ECML.

 

[Magdalia]

There is always the Hertford Loop... the 2 track section isn't as much as a liability as it's made out to be.

Sure, it'll be slower, and some metro services may have to be reduced in frequency - but it's not a total loss of the southern ECML.

Not always, the Hertford Loop can be closed for engineering work.

I commuted on the GN for more than 20 years. The 2 track section at Welwyn is a liability, I know from bitter experience what diversions via Hertford are like. I know what it is like when trains are queuing at every signal on two tracks from Finsbury Park or Hitchin just to get onto the loop, then trundling along on single yellows to get to the other end.

And if you look next time there's planned engineering work, you will see how limited capacity is on the Hertford Loop. Reducing frequency of services, including stopping trains, is easy to do for planned work, much more difficult with unplanned disruption.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Not always, the Hertford Loop can be closed for engineering work.

And if you look next time there's planned engineering work, you will see how limited capacity is on the Hertford Loop. Reducing frequency of metro services is easy to do for planned work, much more difficult with unplanned disruption.

But, the fact is there is still an alternative to the 2 track section. Inevitably there will be disruption whenever a section of track is blocked - but it's not the end of the world.

 

[ChrisC]

And yet these units were deemed suitable to replace HST traction on the Midland Mainline.

Whoever makes these decisions is not working in the interest of passengers.

There are also now rumours in other threads that it’s a possibility that insufficient 810’s have been ordered for the MML and the 180s could have to remain with EMR. The rumour is that EMR will not be able to retain any 222s to cover the shortfall and so the 180s may stay. If the Grand Central 180s are banned from the ECML it will just be East Midlands passengers luck to get those too. Actually from a passengers point of view they are very nice comfortable trains when they work. The most comfortable EMR currently have.

 

[JonathanH]

There are also now rumours in other threads that it’s a possibility that insufficient 810’s have been ordered for the MML

Are those rumours well founded or just conjecture based on a view that five car trains are too short?

EMR now have 4 7-car 222s, 23 5-car 222s and 4 180s, which is 31 units and have 33 810s on order. They are effectively already running their future timetable with 31 units in a mixed fleet. How are 33 units not going to manage to do the work of 31 current units?

A need to keep the 180s doesn't seem obvious.

 

[yorksrob]

There are also now rumours in other threads that it’s a possibility that insufficient 810’s have been ordered for the MML and the 180s could have to remain with EMR. The rumour is that EMR will not be able to retain any 222s to cover the shortfall and so the 180s may stay. If the Grand Central 180s are banned from the ECML it will just be East Midlands passengers luck to get those too. Actually from a passengers point of view they are very nice comfortable trains when they work. The most comfortable EMR currently have.

Why on earth would MML not be able to retain some 222's ?

The lunatics are running the asylum by the sounds of it !

 

[swt_passenger]

And yet these units were deemed suitable to replace HST traction on the Midland Mainline.

But only as a temporary solution to avoid modifying HSTs. They’ll be gone themselves within 2 years.

 

[yorksrob]

But only as a temporary solution to avoid modifying HSTs. They’ll be gone themselves within 2 years.

The HST's should have been the temporary solution until the new trains were available. It's a disgrace what MML passengers have been subjected to in the interim.

 

[ChrisC]

Are those rumours well founded or just conjecture based on a view that five car trains are too short?

EMR now have 4 7-car 222s, 23 5-car 222s and 4 180s, which is 31 units and have 33 810s on order. They are effectively already running their future timetable with 31 units in a mixed fleet. How are 33 units not going to manage to do the work of 31 current units?

A need to keep the 180s doesn't seem obvious.

I can’t remember which thread this rumour was mentioned in. It may be connected with the current EMR overcrowding and the fact that 5 car trains are not sufficient. I know that the 5 car 810s will have a larger capacity than a 222 but the original plan was that many services will be run with double 810s. EMR are really struggling with capacity with the 5 car trains on busy weekends and passengers are being left behind. Some people are beginning to suggest that 33 units will not be enough to double up enough trains at busy times.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why on earth would MML not be able to retain some 222's ?

The lunatics are running the asylum by the sounds of it !

It depends what terms the leasing company offer - leasing companies often prefer to lease entire fleets to one operator so the terms offered to EMR maybe all or none. If they need only a smaller number of trains leasing the 180s maybe easier to negotiate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

The HST's should have been the temporary solution until the new trains were available. It's a disgrace what MML passengers have been subjected to in the interim.

HSTs were not deemed to be suitable by the ORR/DfT for continued operation due to archaic design features such as droplights and slam doors.

Are the 180s really that much worse than the cl91+mk4 sets which also seem to sit down on the ECML on a regular basis? It would seem simply both are unreliable.

 

[Magdalia]

But, the fact is there is still an alternative to the 2 track section. Inevitably there will be disruption whenever a section of track is blocked - but it's not the end of the world.

It may not be the end of the world, but blockage of the 2 track section leads to disruption on a completely different scale. You don't know that until you have experienced it.

 

[yorksrob]

It depends what terms the leasing company offer - leasing companies often prefer to lease entire fleets to one operator so the terms offered to EMR maybe all or none. If they need only a smaller number of trains leasing the 180s maybe easier to negotiate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==



HSTs were not deemed to be suitable by the ORR/DfT for continued operation due to archaic design features such as droplights and slam doors.

Are the 180s really that much worse than the cl91+mk4 sets which also seem to sit down on the ECML on a regular basis? It would seem simply both are unreliable.

Well, I don't agree with the leasing system for trains.

The hysteria about slam doors and drop-lights was always meaningless nonsense that could have waited until the new trains were available.

I'm perhaps fortunate enough not to have experienced a 225 failure on the ECML in the last year or two.

I have experienced several occasions where inadequate short units have been put on the MML, and have experienced a 5 carriage Azuma on the ECML being cancelled - following train was a 225 and fortunately managed to take the additional passengers. Thank goodness for 225's !

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well, I don't agree with the leading system.

You might not agree with it but there’s nobody who can force a leasing company to split up a fleet of vehicles and only lease some. We chose as a county to make the supply of rolling stock commercial and that’s what happened.

The hysteria about slam doors and drop-lights was always meaningless hysteria that could have waited until the new trains were available.

It isn’t meaningless - the Railway was legally found to blame for two deaths in quick succession on drop light rolling stock, the railway has thus acted to prevent a reoccurrence.

 

[yorksrob]

You might not agree with it but there’s nobody who can force a leasing company to split up a fleet of vehicles and only lease some. We chose as a county to make the supply of rolling stock commercial and that’s what happened.

It isn’t meaningless - the Railway was legally found to blame for two deaths in quick succession on drop light rolling stock.

It's a stupid choice that the country shouldn't have made.

And if people choose to stick their head out of the window, that's their own choice, as much as if they choose to walk down the M6. The legal decision was stupidity detrimental to society as a whole, as it makes people not responsible for their own actions.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

And if people choose to stick their head out of the window, that's their own choice, as much as if they choose to walk down the M6. The legal decision was stupidity detrimental to society as a whole, as it makes people not responsible for their own actions.

Yes but the railway can’t change how the law works and has to work within its parameters whether it agrees/likes it or not. The world has moved on and the two incidents created a pretty clear direction in terms of responsibility.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes but the railway can’t change how the law works and has to work within its parameters whether it agrees/likes it or not. The world has moved on and the two incidents created a pretty clear direction in terms of responsibility.

The railway is not the wet nurse to the world, and the sooner society learns that, the better.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's a stupid choice that the country shouldn't have made.

But it’s made it and you can’t blame the leasing companies for their decisions in how they choose to offer their assets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

The railway is not the wet nurse to the world, and the sooner society learns that, the better.

The railway will work within the parameters of the law, as regulated by the ORR. It is not up to the railways to influence society in how to behave.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps the problem is weak judges who aren't prepared to say that "this person did something silly and paid the ultimate price".

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps the problem is weak judges who aren't prepared to say that "this person did something silly and paid the ultimate price".

Maybe and there is a view that common sense doesn’t exist in the way it used to, however no operation will choose to leave itself at risk of libel and will naturally choose a cautious direction, especially where precedent has previously been set.

Hence it sadly wasn’t suitable for the EMR HSTs to continue.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe and there is a view that common sense doesn’t exist in the way it used to, however no operation will choose to leave itself at risk of libel and will naturally choose a cautious direction, especially where precedent has previously been set.

Hence it sadly wasn’t suitable for the EMR HSTs to continue.

True, and that's why we have a railway that doesn't work in the interests of passengers, sadly.

 

[bramling]

There is always the Hertford Loop... the 2 track section isn't as much as a liability as it's made out to be.

Sure, it'll be slower, and some metro services may have to be reduced in frequency - but it's not a total loss of the southern ECML.

Hertford is certainly now a more viable diversion since the GTR stopping service has been slashed!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

You might not agree with it but there’s nobody who can force a leasing company to split up a fleet of vehicles and only lease some. We chose as a county to make the supply of rolling stock commercial and that’s what happened.

It isn’t meaningless - the Railway was legally found to blame for two deaths in quick succession on drop light rolling stock, the railway has thus acted to prevent a reoccurrence.

I can see both sides of this one. Presumably the issue of drop lights could have been resolved if deemed necessary - albeit at cost - by putting bars over the windows and refitting internal handles.

That said, post Carmont the discourse would have probably changed to cab crashworthiness, but it would have bridged the capacity gap in the meantime.

 

[Wolfie]

Perhaps the problem is weak judges who aren't prepared to say that "this person did something silly and paid the ultimate price".

Judges operate within laws set by the legislature i.e. Parliament. It is not for them to do as you propose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

True, and that's why we have a railway that doesn't work in the interests of passengers, sadly.

You mean doesn't work as you want it to (thankfully or it would be cluttered up with 50+ year old junk). Rolling stock which has been proven to have safety issues should be modified and/or withdrawn as soon as possible.

 

[Bayum]

The hysteria about slam doors and drop-lights was always meaningless nonsense that could have waited until the new trains were available.

Disability wise, they weren’t very helpful. I’ve been ‘trapped’ at quiet stations a couple of times because I’m too short to open the door via the open window. I’ve nearly had a couple accidents the few times I’ve managed to open the door via the window because it’s only been possible for me to do so by leaning against the door. As the door opens with my weight against it, if I don’t have a good grip on the door or manage to keep my foot against something in the carriage then I’m in trouble.

 

[yorksrob]

Judges operate within laws set by the legislature i.e. Parliament. It is not for them to do as you propose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==


You mean doesn't work as you want it to (thankfully or it would be cluttered up with 50+ year old junk). Rolling stock which has been proven to have safety issues should be modified and/or withdrawn as soon as possible.

You're clearly not a MML passenger.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

Disability wise, they weren’t very helpful. I’ve been ‘trapped’ at quiet stations a couple of times because I’m too short to open the door via the open window. I’ve nearly had a couple accidents the few times I’ve managed to open the door via the window because it’s only been possible for me to do so by leaning against the door. As the door opens with my weight against it, if I don’t have a good grip on the door or manage to keep my foot against something in the carriage then I’m in trouble.

Better than not being able to get on the train because it's too full though.