222 4-car sets to become 5-car by May 22

[LowLevel]

Apparently more standard seats are being produced but aren't ready yet, in the mean time additional/surplus first class accommodation to be declassified.

 

[BJames]

Apparently more standard seats are being produced but aren't ready yet, in the mean time additional/surplus first class accommodation to be declassified.

Thanks for this update, good to know.

 

[D6975]

The argument against pure electrics though is that the MML has lots of diversionary routes which come in useful on a pretty regular basis and are unlikely to be electrified any time soon. To lose that flexibility either by removing gensets or procuring new EMUs would be unhelpful.

The 810s are going to have 4/5 diesel sets as opposed to 3/5 of the various existing IEPs. Removing one genset wouldn't be catastrophic and removing two would still probably be more than adequate for diversions, which are normally over slower routes where lots of power isn't needed.

 

[dereksingh291]

Any idea of when the 810s will enter service but also what will happen with the 222s when EMR replace them?

 

[JonathanH]

Any idea of when the 810s will enter service but also what will happen with the 222s when EMR replace them?

Nothing has changed regarding future uses for the 222s since the last time you asked that question two months ago.

810s don't look like they will be this year but I am not sure this thread is the place to ask. Try https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...struction-introduction-updates.195052/page-37 page 36 has a quote about the building of the new depot at Derby which indicates the 810s will enter service in 2023.

 

[liamf656]

Nothing has changed regarding the 222s since the last time you asked that question two months ago.

810s don't look like they will be this year but I am not sure this thread is the place to ask.

I was sure it was 2024 that they’re expected to be in regular service, but I can’t remember off the top of my head. I know they’re in the process of constructing the bodyshells currently

@Birmingham36 It’s probably best to keep an eye on the below thread so that this one doesn’t go off topic:

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

Won't the EMR trains also be cheaper because: 1. Shorter vehicles = slightly less materials 2. Only 125mph design which may mean lower permissible crash resistance =ing lower costs again?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[rjames87]

Apparently more standard seats are being produced but aren't ready yet, in the mean time additional/surplus first class accommodation to be declassified.

Sounds like a lot of expense when they aren’t staying long term? I imagine you can’t buy that style of seat anymore either.

 

[ExRes]

Sounds like a lot of expense when they aren’t staying long term? I imagine you can’t buy that style of seat anymore either.

At whose expense though? maybe it's the ROSCO as they see more chance of finding a user for the trains when EMR are eventually able to release them

 

[QSK19]

At whose expense though? maybe it's the ROSCO as they see more chance of finding a user for the trains when EMR are eventually able to release them

Exactly. And that would probably also be a sign that, if some existing stock is kept on in order to make up the possible shortfall in 810 stock, it won’t be 222s. Clearly, the ROSCO sees benefit in sorting out the seating for future use post-EMR; so EMR/DfT wouldn’t be able to extend the lease at a peppercorn rate (and, in any case, the ROSCO would probably charge a higher lease rate due to EMR effectively splitting the 222 fleet by retaining just a few of them).

Therefore, if any stock is to be kept when the 810s start operating, it’ll be the 180s (which may be a reason why it’s seen as viable to repair the fifth coach belonging to 180110 instead of scrapping it).

 

[fgwrich]

Sounds like a lot of expense when they aren’t staying long term? I imagine you can’t buy that style of seat anymore either.

Shouldn't be too difficult though, Transcal were the designers and manufacturers of them and are very much still in business.

Rail – Transcal

transcal.co.uk

At whose expense though? maybe it's the ROSCO as they see more chance of finding a user for the trains when EMR are eventually able to release them

Likely the ROSCO - After all, if all units are reduced and refurbished down to 5 car units, that rather makes them more attractive to certain franchises operating similar 5car DEMUs. Of course, it all will come back to the DfT, but, if it makes them that little bit more attractive...

 

[JonathanH]

Likely the ROSCO - After all, if all units are reduced and refurbished down to 5 car units, that rather makes them more attractive to certain franchises operating similar 5car DEMUs. Of course, it all will come back to the DfT

With at least a year for the 222s on EMR it makes sense for EMR to have a common seating plan on the units, let alone an unknown new operator.

 

[James90012]

It will also simplify the transition over to 5-car 810s, i.e. can introduce the cl. 810 timetable /rolling stock diagrams without too much concern of 5s vs 7s etc on a daily basis.

 

[Impey0711]

222104 is out and about today with a white coach sandwiched in between 2 purple to make it 5 cars was on the 16:00 shf-stp

 

[spotify95]

222104 is out and about today with a white coach sandwiched in between 2 purple to make it 5 cars was on the 16:00 shf-stp

I believe that this has already been mentioned either elsewhere or already on this thread, but thanks for letting us know. It does make me wonder why EMR went to the hassle of making the "Full EMR Intercity" livery with 222104, but then they throw in an "EMR Outgoing Livery" coach in the middle of it!

Methinks it could do with a re-paint (or re-vinyl) to make it back into "Full EMR Intercity"!

 

[Ex-controller]

Re: plans for 222s, appreciate that CC probably get first call on them, but I think ScotRail could desperately do with units like these so that they can get rid of the awfully unreliable short HSTs.

 

[liamf656]

Re: plans for 222s, appreciate that CC probably get first call on them, but I think ScotRail could desperately do with units like these so that they can get rid of the awfully unreliable short HSTs.

There is an ongoing discussion about the future of the 222s. I don’t think it’s been active for a few weeks but it’s still open to new ideas

Future uses for class 220s/221s and 222s?

Is there a market for them abroad somewhere. A couple of years ago, Ireland were after new units (with 170s/175s and 185s all being suggested as possibilities)... but then the Lager Lurgy struck, so I don't know if they still need the capacity boost. If they do, the 222s could be an option if...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Defiance149]

Could anyone post the new formations of 222101-104 as shown on GEMINI please, just to confirm which cars are where in each set?

 

[D365]

That's true, but my point was more that if switching to purely electric operation, it would make more sense to convert the 810s than simply replace them given I understand that is a feature of the 80x design.

There’ll always be a TOC somewhere that needs bi-modes.

 

[hexagon789]

There’ll always be a TOC somewhere that needs bi-modes.

Not after 2035...

 

[QSK19]

Not after 2035...

Well, if the operating life of a train is 35 years, EMR’s ones, for example, would be running until well into the 2050s. Though, by then, they probably won’t have diesel as a fuel source.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not after 2035...

There will still be a case for bi-modes... just not ones where one of the modes is diesel!

 

[D365]

There will still be a case for bi-modes... just not ones where one of the modes is diesel!

Exactly this. So it would make sense to get as much use as possible out of the engines.