Trivia: Modern Day Routes with the wrong allocations

[miklcct]

To wait a maximum of 12 minutes for a bus isn't bad; think how many routes have one bus an hour or less. You've shown your sensitivity to higher fares in other threads. Would you pay more if all your buses were double deckers and you were more likely to get on the first one that arrived?

Most bus routes in London, or other cities with high bus patronage, have headways between 8-12 minutes.

When the wait time excess that, the attractiveness of bus service decreases a lot. While an hourly service is acceptable in rural areas, very few, if none at all, will use such kind of service for urban travel.

A single decker being full on a route capable for double decker operation is a clear example of wrong allocation, no matter how frequent the route is.

 

[M803UYA]

Most bus routes in London, or other cities with high bus patronage, have headways between 8-12 minutes.

When the wait time excess that, the attractiveness of bus service decreases a lot. While an hourly service is acceptable in rural areas, very few, if none at all, will use such kind of service for urban travel.

A single decker being full on a route capable for double decker operation is a clear example of wrong allocation, no matter how frequent the route is.

8-12 minutes is a very good frequency, compared to hourly, or two hourly services in more rural parts of Dorset. There are even worse frequency levels as a lot of the shopper services were stopped around 5 years ago.

I don't agree that a single decker being full is an incorrect allocation. As previously mentioned Yellows operate a number of c40 seater vehicles in fleet as does Morebus. With the standing capacity on offer, they can move 70 people at once. They're cheaper to purchase, and cheaper to operate.

One problem I had when working at Yellows was the tiny number of 29 seat Enviro 200s/Solos we had in fleet (around 10), These would be put onto double decker workings and would struggle to deal with the passenger loadings, whereas a Dart SLF would be able to move 60 pax in the peak hours coming through Winton, so you'd get away with those as a substitution. After a few months of 5 Solos sat in the yard gathering leaves someone decided to sell the vehicles, as we had no use for small buses from a scheduling perspective. They'd been bought in to run Dorchester Town Services as part of a stillborn project in 2011.

Yellows had a long history of double deck operation, but the Transdev/RATP management disliked such vehicles and preferred instead to purchase larger single decks which could stand 25-30pax and seat 40. That said, the 1b/1c and 5a/b were booked double deck lines - so around 40 of the 120 peak vehicle requirement needed to be deckers. So post 2005 the annual investment in double decks more or less ceased and attention paid to single decks, which make up the bulk of the bus fleet today.

I'd say from experience of the network and planning it that the fleet composition is the right one. Besides from reducing frequencies to accommodate more double deck workings I can't see why they'd want to alter that fleet make up - the one corridor Morebus never challenged on was the 5a/b to Kinson through Winton. Problem with cutting frequencies in a competitive environment such as Bournemouth and Poole is it gives ground to the other competitor, so you'd not want to do that unless forced to.

Most of the vehicles used on the 5's were the Y/02 reg batch of East Lancs Vykings, allegedly mechanically superior to a Trident, but being worked 15 hours a day for 12/15 years took it's toll and they frequently failed in service. Repeatedly. Only late into RATP's ownership did new double decks arrive, which didn't resolve this rump of 12 to 15 year old double deckers which needed replacing. That took place late in 2017/early 2018 just before the sale to the management team and only then did the surplus vehicles in the fleet (around 25 over the peak vehicle requirement) get disposed of.

 

[miklcct]

If a single decker gets full it means capacity isn't enough, so it should be replaced with a double decker.

 

[GusB]

If a single decker gets full it means capacity isn't enough, so it should be replaced with a double decker.

Not necessarily. If a single decker is consistently full on every journey, then I would agree that the operator should be looking to increase capacity on the route, either by introducing larger buses (deckers or article), or perhaps increasing the frequency.

However, if it's only full on a few journeys during the day, does it justify the expense of acquiring larger buses when they're going to be carrying a larger volume of fresh air at other times?

 

[LancasterRed]

An issue in both Preston and Lancaster. University services in and around Lancaster have always left passengers behind. IIRC Stagecoach have recently been stripped of one private university shuttle. The solution here is Stagecoach needing to increase frequency and variance of routes.

In Preston the 23, 35, 31, 43, 44 and 100 are all known to have sporadic loads but run to bursting frequently.

 

[CBlue]

If a single decker gets full it means capacity isn't enough, so it should be replaced with a double decker.

Not necessarily. If a single decker is consistently full on every journey, then I would agree that the operator should be looking to increase capacity on the route, either by introducing larger buses (deckers or article), or perhaps increasing the frequency.

However, if it's only full on a few journeys during the day, does it justify the expense of acquiring larger buses when they're going to be carrying a larger volume of fresh air at other times?

For someone wanting to get into a career of transport planning, @miklcct seems to fall into the silly pit of assuming that because the bus "they" catch is busy, all others therefore must be. I've pointed out before that your experience while travelling is a tiny fraction of what is actually happening across a company network, but you seem to fail to understand this?


Anyway....wrong allocations. Locally we have the wheeze of Stagecoach East running the Cambridge-Bedford 905 with worn-out 2010 E400s, ex Cambridge city services complete with 12 years of hard use visible inside and out. Threadbare seats don't make for a pleasant experience, and being thrashed along the dual carriageways at 62mph isn't the smoothest ride. Bizarrely the city routes around Cambridge are being run by the former Busway E400/Scania fleet with nice leather seats and high speed drivelines - yet they're being wasted on a trundle through the city centre!

I get the impression removing the coaches had put off more than a few passengers. The E400s may be quick but they're not refined at speed in the slightest, much like E300s and the earlier Tridents.

 

[M803UYA]

If a single decker gets full it means capacity isn't enough, so it should be replaced with a double decker.

When you define full, do you mean fully seated, or fully seated with a full standing load?

A full single decker is less of an issue, on a network running high frequencies - you wait for the next bus. There's a lot of them in Bournemouth and Poole as I've outlined in earlier posts, so not a 'long' wait on a highly frequent service.

On a rural route which, if we're fortunate, runs on an hourly timetable, that's a problem.

 

[miklcct]

For someone wanting to get into a career of transport planning, @miklcct seems to fall into the silly pit of assuming that because the bus "they" catch is busy, all others therefore must be. I've pointed out before that your experience while travelling is a tiny fraction of what is actually happening across a company network, but you seem to fail to understand this?

Even one bus is full, additional capacity should be provided.

 

[miklcct]

When you define full, do you mean fully seated, or fully seated with a full standing load?

Bus didn't stop at all due to full standing load.

 

[CBlue]

Even one bus is full, additional capacity should be provided.

You complain in other threads about bus ticket prices yet are now advocating what at times would be total overprovision of services? I'm struggling to understand your point here.

5 / 12 minutes wait for the next bus is nothing.

 

[miklcct]

You complain in other threads about bus ticket prices yet are now advocating what at times would be total overprovision of services? I'm struggling to understand your point here.

5 / 12 minutes wait for the next bus is nothing.

And you will be sacked from your job because of lateness if you rely on the bus for commuting, because you can't get on the bus on random days.

 

[sk688]

The route is long but the average journeys less so. People don't do it end to end (except enthusiasts) - it's a succession of overlapping flows.

I agree, but even flows like Watford-Heathrow/Watford-Uxbridge etc deserve better comfort for the distances imo

 

[MotCO]

An example of inappropriate buses was the decision by Carousal to use former Oxford interdecks on a bus route (101) to Heathrow. (Admittedly Go-Ahead had these spare and were looking for somewhere to use them.) That did not last long!

Inappropriate buses? Any routes using Streetlites

 

[AB93]

Even one bus is full, additional capacity should be provided.

This is patently ridiculous, so we're probably not going to get anywhere.

But on the subject of the m1/m2, it's worth remembering what the aim was when it first started: a mismatch of complex intertwining routes replaced by simple, high frequency routes. It's evidently not done them too badly, given the same formula is in use some 18 years later.

They are now extremely busy urban corridors, with lots of overlapping short passenger flows, running in an area of high congestion to boot. It's worth remembering that dwell times and therefore journey times would be much higher were the services to be routinely operated with deckers. I'd expect bunching to be worse, too, which probably wouldn't help with the odd situation of a bus being too full to board.

 

[baza585]

8-12 minutes is a very good frequency, compared to hourly, or two hourly services in more rural parts of Dorset. There are even worse frequency levels as a lot of the shopper services were stopped around 5 years ago.

I don't agree that a single decker being full is an incorrect allocation. As previously mentioned Yellows operate a number of c40 seater vehicles in fleet as does Morebus. With the standing capacity on offer, they can move 70 people at once. They're cheaper to purchase, and cheaper to operate.

One problem I had when working at Yellows was the tiny number of 29 seat Enviro 200s/Solos we had in fleet (around 10), These would be put onto double decker workings and would struggle to deal with the passenger loadings, whereas a Dart SLF would be able to move 60 pax in the peak hours coming through Winton, so you'd get away with those as a substitution. After a few months of 5 Solos sat in the yard gathering leaves someone decided to sell the vehicles, as we had no use for small buses from a scheduling perspective. They'd been bought in to run Dorchester Town Services as part of a stillborn project in 2011.

Yellows had a long history of double deck operation, but the Transdev/RATP management disliked such vehicles and preferred instead to purchase larger single decks which could stand 25-30pax and seat 40. That said, the 1b/1c and 5a/b were booked double deck lines - so around 40 of the 120 peak vehicle requirement needed to be deckers. So post 2005 the annual investment in double decks more or less ceased and attention paid to single decks, which make up the bulk of the bus fleet today.

I'd say from experience of the network and planning it that the fleet composition is the right one. Besides from reducing frequencies to accommodate more double deck workings I can't see why they'd want to alter that fleet make up - the one corridor Morebus never challenged on was the 5a/b to Kinson through Winton. Problem with cutting frequencies in a competitive environment such as Bournemouth and Poole is it gives ground to the other competitor, so you'd not want to do that unless forced to.

Most of the vehicles used on the 5's were the Y/02 reg batch of East Lancs Vykings, allegedly mechanically superior to a Trident, but being worked 15 hours a day for 12/15 years took it's toll and they frequently failed in service. Repeatedly. Only late into RATP's ownership did new double decks arrive, which didn't resolve this rump of 12 to 15 year old double deckers which needed replacing. That took place late in 2017/early 2018 just before the sale to the management team and only then did the surplus vehicles in the fleet (around 25 over the peak vehicle requirement) get disposed of.

I agree that Yellows now have it about right, and rarely do they leave passengers behind these days.

I never have understood why more/W&D chose lightweight ADLs for their flagship m1/2 routes. They are frequently full and standing. Not a problem with the previous Volvos which had more or less the same seating capacity but were heavyweight vehicles.

However the ADLs ride like bricks when anywhere near fully laden particularly towards the rear. Do management actually try out buses before the buy them? One wonders. Sadly the fuel economy gods deem that the ADLs stay on the m1/2 while the Volvos are on less busy routes around Poole despite being much more suited to intensive routes though I have long held that the m1/2 should be deckers, as they would be in many cities.

 

[miklcct]

They are now extremely busy urban corridors, with lots of overlapping short passenger flows, running in an area of high congestion to boot. It's worth remembering that dwell times and therefore journey times would be much higher were the services to be routinely operated with deckers. I'd expect bunching to be worse, too, which probably wouldn't help with the odd situation of a bus being too full to board.

In this case I think that articulated buses with 3-door and off-vehicle ticketing are a good idea. Such vehicles can complete a station call within 10-15 seconds with a dozen passengers boarding / alighting. Does anyone know if they can fit the roads in Bournemouth and Poole?

 

[AB93]

In this case I think that articulated buses with 3-door and off-vehicle ticketing are a good idea. Such vehicles can complete a station call within 10-15 seconds with a dozen passengers boarding / alighting. Does anyone know if they can fit the roads in Bournemouth and Poole?

That would probably work, but - as with the other examples in this thread of lightweight buses offering poor passenger comfort - comes immediately back to the funding/operation of buses in the UK as it stands.

 

[M803UYA]

I agree that Yellows now have it about right, and rarely do they leave passengers behind these days.

I never have understood why more/W&D chose lightweight ADLs for their flagship m1/2 routes. They are frequently full and standing. Not a problem with the previous Volvos which had more or less the same seating capacity but were heavyweight vehicles.

However the ADLs ride like bricks when anywhere near fully laden particularly towards the rear. Do management actually try out buses before the buy them? One wonders. Sadly the fuel economy gods deem that the ADLs stay on the m1/2 while the Volvos are on less busy routes around Poole despite being much more suited to intensive routes though I have long held that the m1/2 should be deckers, as they would be in many cities.

I'd say the ADLs in place of the Volvos was an attempt to reduce fuel costs. A Volvo as you point out is a heavyweight vehicle, so has a lower MPG (miles per gallon) figure.

In overall capacity terms, the Enviro 200 MMCs would carry the same number of passengers that a Volvo B7RLE would do - the main difference is fuel consumption.

Double decker buses would command a higher purchase premium and consume more fuel than a single deck vehicle as I keep saying. You could try offsetting some of the costs by cutting frequency, but in a competitive situation where Go South Coast have invested in being the first bus to the stop (combined 3.5minute frequency over the common sections) that means losing ground to Yellows.

So it won't happen. Why would you as a commercial operator in sustained competition make your product inferior by running less often than the competition between Bournemouth, Boscombe and Pokesdown Station or between Bournemouth and Poole?

 

[baza585]

I'd say the ADLs in place of the Volvos was an attempt to reduce fuel costs. A Volvo as you point out is a heavyweight vehicle, so has a lower MPG (miles per gallon) figure.

In overall capacity terms, the Enviro 200 MMCs would carry the same number of passengers that a Volvo B7RLE would do - the main difference is fuel consumption.

Double decker buses would command a higher purchase premium and consume more fuel than a single deck vehicle as I keep saying. You could try offsetting some of the costs by cutting frequency, but in a competitive situation where Go South Coast have invested in being the first bus to the stop (combined 3.5minute frequency over the common sections) that means losing ground to Yellows.

So it won't happen. Why would you as a commercial operator in sustained competition make your product inferior by running less often than the competition between Bournemouth, Boscombe and Pokesdown Station or between Bournemouth and Poole?

Actually the main difference between the Volvos and the ADLs is passenger comfort!

I know a number of folk who like me let the m2 go past and wait for a 1/1a/1b for that precise reason.

I agree with most of the points you make and I understand the logic. It just feels wrong that the industry usual response is to cut costs rather than improving the product. The Volvos are still out there guzzling fuel, just on routes less demanding! Why not run the Volvos on m1/2 during the day and only put the ADLs on there at less busy times?

Do you have any insight into how Yellows might respond to the extension of the m1 to the hospital?

 

[M803UYA]

Do you have any insight into how Yellows might respond to the extension of the m1 to the hospital?

I've not worked there for some years (2015) but I know if such a thing were to happen there'd be a response. The same would apply to an extension of the m2 beyond Southbourne into Christchurch. Both moves would commit additional vehicles to Go South Coast for what would be negligible revenue, which has to by why it's not been done. Beyond this, the one corridor Go South Coast has never gone after is the 5 to Kinson through Winton.

 

[baza585]

I've not worked there for some years (2015) but I know if such a thing were to happen there'd be a response. The same would apply to an extension of the m2 beyond Southbourne into Christchurch. Both moves would commit additional vehicles to Go South Coast for what would be negligible revenue, which has to by why it's not been done. Beyond this, the one corridor Go South Coast has never gone after is the 5 to Kinson through Winton.

m1 extension is happening from 28 May, but slight reduction in frequency so may not be too many extra PVR. Renders Yellow 3 pretty redundant.

I seem to remember W&D tried on Kinson to Square but soon withdrew.

 

[M803UYA]

m1 extension is happening from 28 May, but slight reduction in frequency so may not be too many extra PVR. Renders Yellow 3 pretty redundant.

I seem to remember W&D tried on Kinson to Square but soon withdrew.

The bottom end of Castle Lane and Cooper Dean Roundabout are known traffic hotspots in Bournemouth - so there would be a commitment of vehicles to extending to the Hospital. This they know as the 15 from Poole works through to Royal Bournemouth Hospital.
On Christmas Day, the registrations for M1/M2 extend to Royal Bournemouth Hospital, and to Christchurch - so the only way it'd be known about is a timetable variation to the registration. 28th May would be the introduction of the summer timetables for Go South Coast (there is normally a winter timetable which comes in September) - so it'd be part of a series of changes.

 

[baza585]

The bottom end of Castle Lane and Cooper Dean Roundabout are known traffic hotspots in Bournemouth - so there would be a commitment of vehicles to extending to the Hospital. This they know as the 15 from Poole works through to Royal Bournemouth Hospital.
On Christmas Day, the registrations for M1/M2 extend to Royal Bournemouth Hospital, and to Christchurch - so the only way it'd be known about is a timetable variation to the registration. 28th May would be the introduction of the summer timetables for Go South Coast (there is normally a winter timetable which comes in September) - so it'd be part of a series of changes.

As indeed it is. My fag packet PVR calculation shows +2 on m1, -2 on 8/9 and -2 on 3/4, with the normal seasonal increases on Swanage routes.

New timetables on more website .

 

[CBlue]

And you will be sacked from your job because of lateness if you rely on the bus for commuting, because you can't get on the bus on random days.

I hope you're not trying to speak down to me as if I'm clueless here, but I honestly don't get the argument you're trying to make?

I used to commute by bus before landing a job that paid enough for me to afford a car. My local service is a interurban route operated by double deck buses on a 15 minute frequency between a large town and a major city, although I am at the last stop before the main road stretch into the city. I was normally the only person catching the bus from said stop.

I would always time my journey around catching the bus before the one I needed to, simply as them being full and not stopping was a normal occurrence. Inability to adjust your personal schedule by 15 minutes and make allowance for busy services isn't the fault of the operator, the same applies to any public transport service that occasionally runs at capacity.

 

[miklcct]

My local service is a interurban route operated by double deck buses on a 15 minute frequency between a large town and a major city, although I am at the last stop before the main road stretch into the city. I was normally the only person catching the bus from said stop.

The existence of such express bus route is itself a great reason to ditch car ownership because the bus is as fast as the car.

In Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands of commuters rely on such express bus routes for commuting (it's very rare not to have passengers waiting at the final stop before entering the motorway at peak hours because such bus services, even standing-room only, are so attractive to commuters). If such bus runs only every 15 minutes and frequently gets full, there will be large number of complaints to the bus companies, authority and councillors.

Bus being full is definitely the fault of operator unless there are external circumstances (such as roadwork, traffic accident) affecting road traffic, and getting 15 minutes earlier to catch the one before is a complete waste of time.

 

[GusB]

The existence of such express bus route is itself a great reason to ditch car ownership because the bus is as fast as the car.

In Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands of commuters rely on such express bus routes for commuting (it's very rare not to have passengers waiting at the final stop before entering the motorway at peak hours because such bus services, even standing-room only, are so attractive to commuters). If such bus runs only every 15 minutes and frequently gets full, there will be large number of complaints to the bus companies, authority and councillors.

Bus being full is definitely the fault of operator unless there are external circumstances (such as roadwork, traffic accident) affecting road traffic, and getting 15 minutes earlier to catch the one before is a complete waste of time.

How many times? You aren't in Hong Kong any more, and any comparison of Bournemouth with a city with a population of millions is ridiculous.

Secondly, buses can be delayed for reasons entirely beyond the control of the bus companies, and if you have a time critical journey to make, by whatever means (including by car), you should allow some extra time "just in case". If you're late for work because you time it so tightly that there's no room for any delays, that is entirely your responsibility.

 

[miklcct]

How many times? You aren't in Hong Kong any more, and any comparison of Bournemouth with a city with a population of millions is ridiculous.

Secondly, buses can be delayed for reasons entirely beyond the control of the bus companies, and if you have a time critical journey to make, by whatever means (including by car), you should allow some extra time "just in case". If you're late for work because you time it so tightly that there's no room for any delays, that is entirely your responsibility.

Hong Kong, or indeed London, Singapore, are all examples of where public transport are commonly used by the majority of commuters. So elsewhere should learn from these places.

And the MTR system in Hong Kong is 99.99% punctual that a breakdown will make major headline in the news. In fact a commuter can leave home at the same minute every working day of the year and arrive at the same minute into the office if the commute is on the MTR alone, which I did for a significant portion of the year, getting into the office within 2 minutes (the headway of a metro line) of the official hour every day. This is the standard I expect for every heavy rail network in the world but sadly the National Rail network is nowhere near that.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

First Manchester Scania L94UA 10017 X401CSG - Interior.

Here we have an interior shot of 10017 X401CSG, a First Manchester Scania L94UB with Wright Solar Fusion bodywork on the 471 service from Bury Bus Station to Bolton Bus Station.

www.flickr.com

Not my photo but buses with this type of seating on a mid to long distance route for me will always be a wrong allocation. Thankfully, there's not as many kicking about these days.

 

[CBlue]

Hong Kong, or indeed London, Singapore, are all examples of where public transport are commonly used by the majority of commuters. So elsewhere should learn from these places.

And the MTR system in Hong Kong is 99.99% punctual that a breakdown will make major headline in the news. In fact a commuter can leave home at the same minute every working day of the year and arrive at the same minute into the office if the commute is on the MTR alone, which I did for a significant portion of the year, getting into the office within 2 minutes (the headway of a metro line) of the official hour every day. This is the standard I expect for every heavy rail network in the world but sadly the National Rail network is nowhere near that.

And yet you can't figure out that the "standard you expect" isn't met here, time and time again. Are you incapable of learning from mistakes?

The existence of such express bus route is itself a great reason to ditch car ownership because the bus is as fast as the car.

In Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands of commuters rely on such express bus routes for commuting (it's very rare not to have passengers waiting at the final stop before entering the motorway at peak hours because such bus services, even standing-room only, are so attractive to commuters). If such bus runs only every 15 minutes and frequently gets full, there will be large number of complaints to the bus companies, authority and councillors.

Bus being full is definitely the fault of operator unless there are external circumstances (such as roadwork, traffic accident) affecting road traffic, and getting 15 minutes earlier to catch the one before is a complete waste of time.

Codswallop. If you can't live with 15 minutes loose time in your day then you seriously need to address your priorities in life.

I used to use those occasional 15 minutes hanging around at the stop to catch up with friends, maybe organise a evening out or a gaming night with my partner - they certainly weren't wasted. To think otherwise is pure folly.

 

[Bungle965]

First Manchester Scania L94UA 10017 X401CSG - Interior.

Here we have an interior shot of 10017 X401CSG, a First Manchester Scania L94UB with Wright Solar Fusion bodywork on the 471 service from Bury Bus Station to Bolton Bus Station.

www.flickr.com

Not my photo but buses with this type of seating on a mid to long distance route for me will always be a wrong allocation. Thankfully, there's not as many kicking about these days.

Yes or anything with the Urban 90 seats which honestly aren’t suitable for anything above 15 minutes!