First class TPE advance not valid in Avanti 1st due to disruption.

[cf111]

Hello all,

I've had cause to travel on an Avanti service from Edinburgh to Wigan with an advance ticket between Inverness and Liverpool. The 1212 TPE service was cancelled due to a lack of a guard and TPE advised I should travel on the 1252 Avanti service as far as Wigan and then to change there.

I contacted Avanti on twitter this morning to reserve a seat and confirm the ticket acceptance, provided them with a screenshot of the ticket and itinerary and was duly provided with a reservation in coach 1st class "J".

Tickets were being checked on boarding at Edinburgh and I was advised that TPE advance ticket holders needed to sit in the standard premium coach which if you are not aware consists of first class seats but no first class service. The

Now it's not the end of the world, nowhere near, however it would have been nice to get some notice of this as I'd have bought a cup of tea and a sandwich before boarding. I also accept that this is not an issue of Avanti's making. I am slightly miffed as to my mind I hold a ticket valid for conveyance in first class but "the railway" for want for a better term has not provided that due to a disruption caused by a staffing issue on their end.

All being well I will not qualify for delay repay, but am I entitled to ask TPE for a partial refund?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[LowLevel]

Hello all,

I've had cause to travel on an Avanti service from Edinburgh to Wigan with an advance ticket between Inverness and Liverpool. The 1212 TPE service was cancelled due to a lack of a guard and TPE advised I should travel on the 1252 Avanti service as far as Wigan and then to change there.

I contacted Avanti on twitter this morning to reserve a seat and confirm the ticket acceptance, provided them with a screenshot of the ticket and itinerary and was duly provided with a reservation in coach 1st class "J".

Tickets were being checked on boarding at Edinburgh and I was advised that TPE advance ticket holders needed to sit in the standard premium coach which if you are not aware consists of first class seats but no first class service. The

Now it's not the end of the world, nowhere near, however it would have been nice to get some notice of this as I'd have bought a cup of tea and a sandwich before boarding. I also accept that this is not an issue of Avanti's making. I am slightly miffed as to my mind I hold a ticket valid for conveyance in first class but "the railway" for want for a better term has not provided that due to a disruption caused by a staffing issue on their end.

All being well I will not qualify for delay repay, but am I entitled to ask TPE for a partial refund?

Thank you all in advance.

Standard Premium is not First Class so you should be entitled to a part refund of the difference between the appropriate first class and standard class advance tier.

It may have been that the very small first class coach (K I think?) was already full, I suppose.

 

[cf111]

Standard Premium is not First Class so you should be entitled to a part refund of the difference between the appropriate first class and standard class advance tier.

It may have been that the very small first class coach (K I think?) was already full, I suppose.

Thank you @LowLevel ,I will contact TPE. First class is very quiet but I'm not really the type to try and make someone else's day more difficult as I have been on the other side plenty times!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would have thought that you should also be able to claim for Delay Repay from TPE if your arrival in Liverpool is 15 minutes or more late and assuming your itinerary was to have been on their cancelled 1212 train ex-Edinburgh.

 

[Starmill]

Avanti West Coast cannot provide ticket acceptance but tell people with valid First Class tickets have to sit in Standard. As others have said you're entitled to the difference back in proportion, plus compensation for any delay if you arrived later than the threshold.

 

[cf111]

Would have thought that you should also be able to claim for Delay Repay from TPE if your arrival in Liverpool is 15 minutes or more late and assuming your itinerary was to have been on their cancelled 1212 train ex-Edinburgh.

Ah, thanks for the heads up. I am too used to travelling with Scotrail where the delay repay threshold is still 30 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2022 ==

Avanti West Coast cannot provide ticket acceptance but tell people with valid First Class tickets have to sit in Standard.

I do agree but that appears to be the case. If I'd been told this morning that I should sit in standard (premium) rather than being given a seat in first I would not have been less miffed. Still standard is heaving so perhaps I should count myself lucky to have a coach almost to myself!

 

[Haywain]

Tickets were being checked on boarding at Edinburgh and I was advised that TPE advance ticket holders needed to sit in the standard premium coach which if you are not aware consists of first class seats but no first class service.

A first class ticket is still valid in first class, and not some half-baked hybrid class, when ticket acceptance is in place. The Avanti staff were wrong and a strong complaint should be made (in my opinion).

 

[cf111]

A first class ticket is still valid in first class, and not some half-baked hybrid class, when ticket acceptance is in place. The Avanti staff were wrong and a strong complaint should be made (in my opinion).

Having spoken to the train manager, who was unhappy at me even asking question, I was informed that this is is a first class carriage and I was welcome to go and stand in standard if I thought it was being hard done by!

 

[Watershed]

Having spoken to the train manager, who was unhappy at me even asking question, I was informed that this is is a first class carriage and I was welcome to go and stand in standard if I thought it was being hard done by!

Goodness me, what a wonderful attitude! If it were me, I would pay whatever upgrade the Train Manager demanded to sit in First and then reclaim this from Avanti.

 

[cf111]

Goodness me, what a wonderful attitude! If it were me, I would pay whatever upgrade the Train Manager demanded to sit in First and then reclaim this from Avanti.

Everyone has off days I guess!

 

[Wolfie]

Having spoken to the train manager, who was unhappy at me even asking question, I was informed that this is is a first class carriage and I was welcome to go and stand in standard if I thought it was being hard done by!

Time for a complaint about said Train Manager. Avanti customer service is absolutely shocking and they absolutely deserve kicking at every opportunity.

 

[Haywain]

I was informed that this is is a first class carriage and I was welcome to go and stand in standard if I thought it was being hard done by!

Awful customer service.

 

[cf111]

Time for a complaint about said Train Manager. Avanti customer service is absolutely shocking and they absolutely deserve kicking at every opportunity.

Another comment I was quite put out by was that I "should have went to the ticket office and they would have told me". Notwithstanding that LNER run the Waverley ticket office and may not have known, I thought I'd done the right thing by speaking to Avanti on twitter. I've pinged a complaint off to Avanti, section 31 of the conditions of travel say I should contact the company I travelled with, so we shall see how that goes.

Thanks again all for the comments and advice.

 

[Haywain]

section 31 of the conditions of travel say I should contact the company I travelled with,

That is quite right - TPE haven't prevented you from travelling in the class for which you have paid, Avanti have.

 

[LowLevel]

That is quite right - TPE haven't prevented you from travelling in the class for which you have paid, Avanti have.

No, but they've subcontracted Avanti to fulfill their obligations for an advance purchase ticket via ticket acceptance. If a complaint is to be made I would send it to both TOCs.

I would be most surprised if agreeing to carry passengers in disruption via the ticket acceptance agreement would leave the accepting operator open to claims for failure to provide the appropriate class of accommodation, even if the service provided was poor.

 

[cf111]

No, but they've subcontracted Avanti to fulfill their obligations for an advance purchase ticket via ticket acceptance. If a complaint is to be made I would send it to both TOCs.

I would be most surprised if agreeing to carry passengers in disruption via the ticket acceptance agreement would leave the accepting operator open to claims for failure to provide the appropriate class of accommodation, even if the service provided was poor.

Maybe it's daft but I don't want to look like I'm trying to double-dip.

 

[Bishopstone]

I feel a just resolution would have been a seat in first class, tea and a biscuit: equivalent to the TPE catering offer.

TPE wouldn’t have provided a hot meal or alcoholic drinks, and I don’t think the ‘rescuing’ TOC should be under any obligation to do so, in these circumstances, as that would be to place the passenger in a better position than they’d paid for.

However, that’s just my opinion rather than the legal situation.

 

[cf111]

I feel a just resolution would have been a seat in first class, tea and a biscuit: equivalent to the TPE catering offer.

TPE wouldn’t have provided a hot meal or alcoholic drinks, and I don’t think the ‘rescuing’ TOC should be under any obligation to do so, in these circumstances, as that would be to place the passenger in a better position than they’d paid for.

However, that’s just my opinion rather than the legal situation.

I'd have considered that fair too. Maybe two biccies though.

 

[Watershed]

I feel a just resolution would have been a seat in first class, tea and a biscuit: equivalent to the TPE catering offer.

TPE wouldn’t have provided a hot meal or alcoholic drinks, and I don’t think the ‘rescuing’ TOC should be under any obligation to do so, in these circumstances, as that would be to place the passenger in a better position than they’d paid for.

However, that’s just my opinion rather than the legal situation.

For once, your opinion does align fairly well with the legal position

The right to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity (as is likely to apply in this case) is under "comparable transport conditions". As First Class in TPE is likely to mean a service of snacks and refreshments, it would not be comparable to be re-routed into Avanti's Standard Premium, where there are no complimentary refreshments.

Of course there is nothing legally forcing Avanti to serve complimentary refreshments to re-routed passengers (as section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act wouldn't apply in these circumstances), but TPE are ultimately responsible for First Class passengers being accommodated in First Class rather than Standard Premium. If need be, through buying them new First Class walkup tickets (if Avanti won't accept passengers in First through a negotiated agreement).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That is quite right - TPE haven't prevented you from travelling in the class for which you have paid, Avanti have.

Although TPE kind of haven't, by not operating their 1212 service.

Who issued the 'J' coach reservation on the 1252 Avanti service? Is that first class or standard premium? Not sure why the onboard Avanti Train Manager wouldn't have allowed you to sit in the seat that you've been allocated.

 

[Haywain]

Although TPE kind of haven't, by not operating their 1212 service.

They have, by agreeing ticket acceptance. That applies to the class of travel shown on the ticket. Avanti cannot claim that a coach is simultaneously first class and not first class.

 

[LowLevel]

For once, your opinion does align fairly well with the legal position

The right to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity (as is likely to apply in this case) is under "comparable transport conditions". As First Class in TPE is likely to mean a service of snacks and refreshments, it would not be comparable to be re-routed into Avanti's Standard Premium, where there are no complimentary refreshments.

Of course there is nothing legally forcing Avanti to serve complimentary refreshments to re-routed passengers (as section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act wouldn't apply in these circumstances), but TPE are ultimately responsible for First Class passengers being accommodated in First Class rather than Standard Premium. If need be, through buying them new First Class walkup tickets (if Avanti won't accept passengers in First through a negotiated agreement).

As ever as lovely an idea it is, I've not heard of a train operator buying customers new tickets since either Grand Central or Hull Trains in the 2000s, I forget which.

You may assert that it should happen, but I've never known it, and indeed would be interested to hear if any train operator has yet been penalised for failing to do so.

 

[Haywain]

I've not heard of a train operator buying customers new tickets since either Grand Central or Hull Trains in the 2000s, I forget which.

It was the early days of GC, before they figured out that talking to other train operators was cheaper!

 

[cf111]

Although TPE kind of haven't, by not operating their 1212 service.

Who issued the 'J' coach reservation on the 1252 Avanti service? Is that first class or standard premium? Not sure why the onboard Avanti Train Manager wouldn't have allowed you to sit in the seat that you've been allocated.

Avanti on Twitter, I did explain the situation and provided a screenshot of my ticket. It is a 1st class coach.

 

[dave87016]

Coach J is first class Monday - Fridays and Coach J is Standard Premium at weekends

 

[Trackman]

Well, I’m sat (and stuck somewhere north of Shap) on the 9S70 to Edinburgh in SP with a few Avanti staff sat near me , they have been talking about this, one had someone kicking off about it and then the TM has just spoke to them and just had to shift someone from first. Their view, which is Avanti’s view I guess is that you only get tea or biscuits or whatever with TPE. If it was me, I guess I would ask if I could complimentary tea/biscuit’s if that was the case from the shop and indeed send off a complaint.

 

[Watershed]

As ever as lovely an idea it is, I've not heard of a train operator buying customers new tickets since either Grand Central or Hull Trains in the 2000s, I forget which.

You may assert that it should happen, but I've never known it, and indeed would be interested to hear if any train operator has yet been penalised for failing to do so.

The problem is that it's not something which a class action could be brought for, and the industry certainly doesn't tell you about your rights in any proactive sort of manner (you don't even get a little sheet like you have at airport check-in desks/boarding gates summarising your rights).

So most people, let alone staff are totally unaware of the rights that exist, and even if they are aware, one person making a claim is unlikely to change procedures.

Really this needs concerted action from the likes of Which?, but they do not seem to be particularly interested in these sorts of issues. It's a bit peculiar as they are pretty hot on air passengers' rights.

 

[All Line Rover]

Well, I’m sat (and stuck somewhere north of Shap) on the 9S70 to Edinburgh in SP with a few Avanti staff sat near me , they have been talking about this, one had someone kicking off about it and then the TM has just spoke to them and just had to shift someone from first. Their view, which is Avanti’s view I guess is that you only get tea or biscuits or whatever with TPE. If it was me, I guess I would ask if I could complimentary tea/biscuit’s if that was the case from the shop and indeed send off a complaint.

Whereas the correct view is that standard premium is provided for standard class ticket holders in possession of a supplement, not for first class ticket holders.

Fine not to provide the full works catering-wise (and my experience of Avanti is that much of the time, catering will be unavailable regardless). Not fine to attempt to remove first class ticket holders from first class accommodation.

Typical incompetence and arrogance from Avanti. I had *wanted* to think, reading the opening post, that the standard premium coach had been made available to *standard* class TPE ticket holders to alleviate overcrowding and the OP merely experienced a miscommunication. Alas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SP has 2+1 seating with one of the best First Class interiors in the UK. Given that I agree about the food (though they should have really done tea, coffee and water) what is the problem here? It seems reasonable to me. A seat better than the one on TPE was provided.

I think this is just people angry they couldn't freeload on the (fairly rubbishy) food offering.

The SP coaches have 1 on the doors by the way. They are just the equivalent of BR Weekend First - a dedicated coach without the freebies.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately Avanti employ some staff who are, quite frankly, a disgrace to the rail industry. Avanti ought to be opening disciplinary proceedings for something like this.

A complaint should be made; feel free to post it here for proof reading if you like.

The TM needs to be taken to task for refusing to honour reservations and for undermining their own Twitter team and even suggesting you should have sought LNER, rather than Avanti, for advice.

The TM is lucky I wasn't the passenger.

SP has 2+1 seating with one of the best First Class interiors in the UK. Given that I agree about the food (though they should have really done tea, coffee and water) what is the problem here? It seems reasonable to me. A seat better than the one on TPE was provided.

I think this is just people angry they couldn't freeload on the (fairly rubbishy) food offering.

The SP coaches have 1 on the doors by the way. They are just the equivalent of BR Weekend First - a dedicated coach without the freebies.

You completely miss the point. 1st class is 1st class.