Wrong route given on a Man Airport to Chester ticket

[gnolife]

hi guys.
i made a Manchester Airport to Chester retrun trip today. I was travelling on the 11:29 TPX from MIA to Blackpool, alighting at Picc, then changing onto the 11:50 ATW from MAN to Llandudno, alighting at Chester. I had specifically asked at the Airport for a (and this is exactly what i said word for word) "16-25 railcard retun to Chester through Bank Quay". I had been given a route: Crewe ticket costing..., which was not disputed on the TPX train, but on the ATW i was told my ticket wasnt valid, and got given a new ticket, costing £18.80, when my original had cost £10.95

Am i entitled to any kind of refund, or will TPX see it as being my own fault for not checking my ticket?

 

[LexyBoy]

Well you should have checked your tickets before leaving the booking office, but more importantly you should have been charged an Excess on the train, not sold a new ticket. So I'd write to the TOC which sold you the ticket on board asking for a refund of that ticket. Were you sold the same ticket type as your original ticket, or a SOS?

I'm assuming that WBQ is a valid route for this journey...

 

[yorkie]

hi guys.
i made a Manchester Airport to Chester retrun trip today. I was travelling on the 11:29 TPX from MIA to Blackpool, alighting at Picc, then changing onto the 11:50 ATW from MAN to Llandudno, alighting at Chester. I had specifically asked at the Airport for a (and this is exactly what i said word for word) "16-25 railcard retun to Chester through Bank Quay". I had been given a route: Crewe ticket costing..., which was not disputed on the TPX train, but on the ATW i was told my ticket wasnt valid, and got given a new ticket, costing £18.80, when my original had cost £10.95

Am i entitled to any kind of refund, or will TPX see it as being my own fault for not checking my ticket?

Firstly, you should have been offered a choice of route when you bought the ticket.

Secondly, the conductor acted incorrectly. He/she should have issued you an excess fare costing £75p (or 70p, not sure if you round up or down).

Did you get the conductors name?

If not, don't worry, the TOC can find that out.

Definitely write and complain.

Please let us know how you get on - I am keen to see a positive outcome! Good luck.

 

[northwichcat]

It is the passengers responsbility to check that they've been issued with the ticket they want. Some ticket office staff issue the cheapest available without asking or checking. In this instance there's no Route:Warrington ticket and the cheaper Route:Crewe ticket is not valid via Warrington.

The fact that the conductor sold you an Off Peak Day Return on board when boarding at a staffed station may suggest he/she thought it was a genuine mistake. However, it seems strange that the conductor didn't excess the ticket. Also did you not go past RPI staff somewhere like at the Airport, platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly/Oxford Rd/Warrington Central? - I'm not sure exactly which service you got from the Airport or where you changed

 

[Nick O. Teen]

It is the passengers responsbility to check that they've been issued with the ticket they want. Some ticket office staff issue the cheapest available without asking or checking.

This is a constant bane. Going through the train, leaving Gatport Airwick, I'll often find customers with tickets to, say, Exeter, routed Salisbury. So I'll advise them to change at Guildford for Woking and Woking for Exeter, and they'll go "Uh, no, mate, I'm going via Reading, that's what the chap in the ticket office said."

When advised of the extra fare to go via Reading, they invariably say "No way!"

Now, I believe that 99% of passengers are fundamentally honest, the remaining 1% being made up largely of chancers plus a small hard core of evaders, therefore I'm usually inclined to apply the benefit of the doubt. Also many of these people never normally use trains, if what they say is true. I generally end up advising them to follow the route on their ticket, but if they choose to go to Reading, and end up getting excessed by the TM on their next train, then c'est la vie, stump up, and put in a complaint afterwards.

Any other experiences of this, and views please?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This is a constant bane. Going through the train, leaving Gatport Airwick, I'll often find customers with tickets to, say, Exeter, routed Salisbury. So I'll advise them to change at Guildford for Woking and Woking for Exeter, and they'll go "Uh, no, mate, I'm going via Reading, that's what the chap in the ticket office said."

When advised of the extra fare to go via Reading, they invariably say "No way!"

Now, I believe that 99% of passengers are fundamentally honest, the remaining 1% being made up largely of chancers plus a small hard core of evaders, therefore I'm usually inclined to apply the benefit of the doubt. Also many of these people never normally use trains, if what they say is true. I generally end up advising them to follow the route on their ticket, but if they choose to go to Reading, and end up getting excessed by the TM on their next train, then c'est la vie, stump up, and put in a complaint afterwards.

Any other experiences of this, and views please?

This is not an uncommon problem. If I had a pound for every time, when I pointed out to someone that their ticket was not valid via the route they were taking and got the response "Well I went to the office and asked for ticket to X and this is what they sold me. No one said I had to catch a particular train. I asked on the station and they said this was the quickest / easiest way" then I would be very wealthy. The regular ones are Preston - Leeds etc with Rte Burnley tickets going via Manchester, Leeds to Manchester with Rte Hebden Bridge tickets going via Huddersfield then direct to Manchester, Manchester to Bradford with rte Halifax tickets going via Leeds (or vice versa) and people with MerseyTravel passes and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester add ons going via Warrington.

I am never sure whether it is booking office staff who have absolutely no geographical knowledge, simply don't bother looking, or passengers who only hear the bits of information they want to hear and didn't actually listen when told their cheaper ticket is only valid via certain (normally slower) route.

The same applies with ticket restrictions. I am fed up to the back teeth with people selling off-peak or similar tickets when they are not valid. The worst culprits appear to be Merseyrail stations who insist on selling off-peak day returns and off-peak returns to Manchester in the morning peak, and Northen on train staff in the Leeds area who appear not to have grasped the fact that the restriction code shown on their Avantix actually means something and just sell the off-peak ticket regardless of the time. It is very very common to get Avantix on train issued "Off Peak" tickets from stations around Leeds to Manchester or York being sold at 0600 or 0700 ish - when it is quite obvious that the passenger will not be complying with the time restrictions. The response from the passenger, when pointed out, is always the same "I got on the train at Y and asked for a return to X, and this is what he sold me. He didn't ask when I was travelling or mention anything about not being able to travel at this time". There are often so many I find it hard to believe that all the people with them are trying it on and that quite simply they have probably been mis-sold.

 

[yorkie]

This is not an uncommon problem. If I had a pound for every time, when I pointed out to someone that their ticket was not valid via the route they were taking and got the response "Well I went to the office and asked for ticket to X and this is what they sold me. No one said I had to catch a particular train. I asked on the station and they said this was the quickest / easiest way" then I would be very wealthy. The regular ones are Preston - Leeds etc with Rte Burnley tickets going via Manchester, Leeds to Manchester with Rte Hebden Bridge tickets going via Huddersfield then direct to Manchester, ....

The excess for one portion of a Leeds-Manchester Rte Hebden Bridge to Any Permitted is 85p. Do people really argue over such a small excess?

I can perfectly understand people like the OP, wrongly charged around £18 when they should be charged 70p complaining (indeed the OP should) but to moan at 85p really is ridiculous (85p assumes CDR).

Preston-Leeds is a rather more hefty excess, as there is no CDR so the excess would be £4.65 off peak.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The excess for one portion of a Leeds-Manchester Rte Hebden Bridge to Any Permitted is 85p.

It isn't when you have an SDR Rte Hebden Bridge (£17.60) when only an SOR Rte Any Permitted (£24.20) is valid, or have a Northern Duo Rte Hebden Bridge (£22.20 for 2 people) when there is no equivalent fare Rte Any Permitted and they have to upgrade to the CDR Rte Any Permitted (£16.50 per person). The former is getting very common in the morning peak where passengers use the SSTMs, see the words "Anytime Day return" on the machine, note it is about £7 cheaper than the other "Anytime" fare and buy that. In most cases when you ask "Are you coming back this way, or are you coming back on the slower Northern services from Manchester Victoria?" they normally always say they are coming back "mainline" and have to pay for both directions.

Do people really argue over such a small excess?

Yes.

Preston-Leeds is a rather more hefty excess, as there is no CDR so the excess would be £4.65 off peak.

Again, it's slightly more if you have an SDR rte Burnley (£17.80) when only an SOR Rte Any Permitted (£34.20) is valid.


I think these problems occur for 4 reasons:
a) People use the self service ticket machines to buy the cheapest ticket they can find without paying any attention to the Route Restrictions shown (which despite what people keep claiming, it IS clearly shown on all SSTMs - I have checked)

b) People ask for a return from X to Y and the clerk sells them the cheapest / most direct fare and advises them which train to catch, which the passenger then ignores as they know best.

c) People ask for a return from X to Y and the clerk sells them the cheapest / most direct fare and DOESN'T advise them which train to catch.

d) People say they are going one way, then come back another way without checking whether the original ticket - which may well have been sold in good faith with correct information provided - is valid.

In all 4 of these cases the passenger will almost certainly get stroppy about having to pay an excess fare, no matter how small, as in their eyes they have a ticket from X to Y and that is that, nothing else matters.

 

[asylumxl]

I personally think C happens more often than it certainly should. I've seen it happen before. Now I'm not criticising the staff or the passengers, and I think the fare system is to blame.

With so many destinations and possible ticketing options, i'd imagine it'd be quite hard for a clerk to remember all the different restrictions and stations geographics. Also your average leisure traveler may rarely use the train, and/or not know the relevant geography.

On a TVM, I've seen many tickets that will just say something like "Restrictions: As Advertised". As advertised where?! Is it any suprise people make mistakes?

Things don't necesarily need to be simpler, but they do certainly do need to be clearer and more obvious.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I personally think C happens more often than it certainly should. I've seen it happen before. Now I'm not criticising the staff or the passengers, and I think the fare system is to blame.

With so many destinations and possible ticketing options, i'd imagine it'd be quite hard for a clerk to remember all the different restrictions and stations geographics. Also your average leisure traveler may rarely use the train, and/or not know the relevant geography.

On a TVM, I've seen many tickets that will just say something like "Restrictions: As Advertised". As advertised where?! Is it any suprise people make mistakes?

Things don't necesarily need to be simpler, but they do certainly do need to be clearer and more obvious.

So, I feel, we are left with the question as to what the poor old punter is supposed to do. If someone really has been sold an off-peak before it's valid or told that a particular ticket is valid on a particular train or is not sold the route requested, then it's not entirely reasonable to subsequently charge them on the train a large excess fare. Assuming most people are honest but not knowledgeable about tickets, by asking at the ticket office or stating their journey if buying on the train they really have done all they reasonably can to check their ticket restrictions. By that stage they have possibly no choice, since they're already travelling - given the right information from the start they might have decided not to travel until later.

Why should they pay? If they do then they are more or less agreeing to the idea that 'The Railway' can charge apparently random amounts of money without having to provide any easily accessible justification for what they are doing - or, even, providing staff who inform passegers correctly.

 

[cuccir]

If someone really has been sold an off-peak before it's valid

Of course, staff should sell off-peak tickets when they are not valid if the passenger asks for them, as long as they make sure that customers are aware of the restrictions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why should they pay? If they do then they are more or less agreeing to the idea that 'The Railway' can charge apparently random amounts of money without having to provide any easily accessible justification for what they are doing - or, even, providing staff who inform passegers correctly.

If a customer pays an excess then I don't think that's an overly unreasonable situation; they are only paying what they ought to have done anyway. Now if the excess is, erm, excessive, then you could argue that the passenger might not have made the journey if they had known the cost, but differences in routeing are rarely extremely expensive.

Errors like that experience by the original poster of this thread, however, are very disappointing!

 

[island]

Isn't there a procedure to stamp/write "RESTRICTIONS EXPLAINED" on a ticket when the seller thinks the passenger will "misunderstand" the ticket rules?

I do wonder though what is hard to understand about "Route: Hebden Bridge".

 

[MichaelAMW]

If a customer pays an excess then I don't think that's an overly unreasonable situation; they are only paying what they ought to have done anyway. Now if the excess is, erm, excessive, then you could argue that the passenger might not have made the journey if they had known the cost, but differences in routeing are rarely extremely expensive.

That's basically my point - they don't have the information they need to make the decisions, i.e. whether to travel 'now', until it is in effect too late.

You are right that route-related excesses are likely to be smallish, but that might not be the case if you have an off-peak to peak excess. Presumably, in practice if not in the 'letter of the law', the passenger has the option of leaving the train and waiting until the off-peak period arrives. it seems unfair that slackness from railway staff becomes the responsibility of the honest passenger.

To invoke the Tesco analogy, which appears here from time to time, it's a bit like someone turning up at your house asking for more money for your baked beans, after you've eaten them... By that time all of your choice has been removed. It's pretty reasonable to assume that once you've paid for your ticket, when the specific trains you want have been mentioned, you have completed your side of the bargain.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I personally think C happens more often than it certainly should. I've seen it happen before.

It happenned to me only this afternoon. After departure from Manchester Piccadilly someone presents a Macclesfield to Bradford Yks Stns Rte Halifax fare. I correctly advise the passenger to change at Huddersfield. He says "oh no, I change at Leeds. Look they gave me this" and duly showed me a print out of a journey itenary printed out at the same time as he brought the ticket, which showed a route going no where near Halifax. Now i don't know whether he purchased the ticket at an SSTM and subsequently asked a member of staff for a timetable print out, but either way all the member of staff had to do was insert via Halifax on which ever journey planner they were using. It is not difficult even if you don't know the geography.