Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
The letter is a Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit letter, which I have attached. The letter says that on the 18th March I was “spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of railway regulations”. I have not been stopped by anyone at the station or on the train, I checked my emails and sure enough I have my tickets that I purchased on the day at 6:56am, the tickets I purchase every day that I get the train to work. It also says I was spoken to at 7:32am, but my train leaves its station at 7:02am and I change trains at another station at 7:20am, so this would have to have been on a train, but I had my ticket and railcard (digital) so I wouldn’t have had to be spoken to.
I am really unsure what to do in this scenario, I have not been stopped by anyone whilst using a train. The only time was last year on a TPE train as I travelled on the wrong ticket, I received a penalty fare and learned my lesson. Since then I have ensured I always have the correct ticket and always purchase before I board the train.
What should I do? Should I reply with the information it asks for? Should I tell them that this was not me and that I was not stopped?
Write and explain that it wasn't you. You could add the details of the journey you made and the ticket you used to beck this up. You don't have to do any of this, of course, but it isn't an onerous matter.
The letter is a Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit letter, which I have attached. The letter says that on the 18th March I was “spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of railway regulations”. I have not been stopped by anyone at the station or on the train, I checked my emails and sure enough I have my tickets that I purchased on the day at 6:56am, the tickets I purchase every day that I get the train to work. It also says I was spoken to at 7:32am, but my train leaves its station at 7:02am and I change trains at another station at 7:20am, so this would have to have been on a train, but I had my ticket and railcard (digital) so I wouldn’t have had to be spoken to.
I am really unsure what to do in this scenario, I have not been stopped by anyone whilst using a train. The only time was last year on a TPE train as I travelled on the wrong ticket, I received a penalty fare and learned my lesson. Since then I have ensured I always have the correct ticket and always purchase before I board the train.
What should I do? Should I reply with the information it asks for? Should I tell them that this was not me and that I was not stopped?
So this would seem to be (I assume) a likely case of someone else giving your name and address (and e-mail address?) to Northern when that person was stopped. Do you think that might be a plausible explanation?
Seems a while since we have had a case of that happening on here (so I can't quickly find a thread with the advice on it). Might be worth you waiting a day or so to see what advice people post - but you do need to engage with this or it could just progress to court and that would take you much longer to untangle- and thus respond to them probably simply saying that this could not have been you as you were not stopped on that date and indeed had a valid ticket (at least you have some proof of this assuming your are correct).
Northern will have a process for this sort of situation where another person is using your details / identity.
IIRC people who are stopped are asked for ID (tho not under obligation to provide it) so could someone have used ID with your details on it? I also recall that some brief description details are often / usually taken of the person stopped - so you maybe could offer to provide an image of yourself to them so they can see if it matches their own records.
It is important you engage and reply to them about this within the timescale - but you may want to do so by post (to avoid e-mailing a scam address perhaps).
Also - if someone is using your ID for this you may be at risk of other identity theft problems, so may be worth you taking other precautions (eg check bank accounts, change passwords etc)
Could someone have stolen your ID - eg letters form a communal letter box if you live in a block of flats or hall of residence say?
Hopefully others will also post advice on what next steps to take - but ultimately I would think a reply saying "I was travelling by train on that date using the attached ticket which I believe was valid , at that time I would have been changing trains at X , I do not believe that I was stopped by any staff and spoken to about my ticket, nor did I give my details to any member of railway staff. I am concerned that someone else has used my identity and given my details to you. I would be happy to provide more information to you, if this would help resolve matters."
Also I note the letter mentions that the offence was failing to have your Railcard with you. Do you have a Railcard? Are you entitled to one? If not that may be worth saying in your reply since it helps show that the person who gave your details presumably had a ticket with a railcard discount applied, but could not show it - which if you do not have a railcard you would presumably not have bought.
Agreed with @Haywain respond to them with copies of your tickets, railcard and explanation as to what your journey was and request that they double check their records, that they've contacted the correct person and that they are discontinuing any further action against you.
It sounds possibly like someone may have given your details instead of their own which is something which we do see from time to time. You may want to consider having a rummage around your credit history, change passwords, etc as possibly you've also been the victim of identify theft. Though that is harder to know. It could just be someone who knows enough about you to try and get out of a problem by giving your details.
So this would seem to be (I assume) a likely case of someone else giving your name and address (and e-mail address?) to Northern when that person was stopped. Do you think that might be a plausible explanation?
Seems a while since we have had a case of that happening on here (so I can't quickly find a thread with the advice on it). Might be worth you waiting a day or so to see what advice people post - but you do need to engage with this or it could just progress to court and that would take you much longer to untangle- and thus respond to them probably simply saying that this could not have been you as you were not stopped on that date and indeed had a valid ticket (at least you have some proof of this assuming your are correct).
Northern will have a process for this sort of situation where another person is using your details / identity.
IIRC people who are stopped are asked for ID (tho not under obligation to provide it) so could someone have used ID with your details on it? I also recall that some brief description details are often / usually taken of the person stopped - so you maybe could offer to provide an image of yourself to them so they can see if it matches their own records.
It is important you engage and reply to them about this within the timescale - but you may want to do so by post (to avoid e-mailing a scam address perhaps).
Also - if someone is using your ID for this you may be at risk of other identity theft problems, so may be worth you taking other precautions (eg check bank accounts, change passwords etc)
Could someone have stolen your ID - eg letters form a communal letter box if you live in a block of flats or hall of residence say?
Hopefully others will also post advice on what next steps to take - but ultimately I would think a reply saying "I was travelling by train on that date using the attached ticket which I believe was valid , at that time I would have been changing trains at X , I do not believe that I was stopped by any staff and spoken to about my ticket, nor did I give my details to any member of railway staff. I am concerned that someone else has used my identity and given my details to you. I would be happy to provide more information to you, if this would help resolve matters."
With regards to someone else giving my name, this is the only explanation I can think of, my home address was not included in the email or on the letter. Could Northern have obtained my email address from their database/records? I have a Northern and Trainline account with this email address. Even still, if it was someone I know, it is likely they would know my email address (it is quite rememberable)
Like you said, though, surely the rail staff would have asked for proof of ID, when I was given my penalty fare on TPE the conductor asked to see my ID, and I provided her with my drivers licence.
Also I note the letter mentions that the offence was failing to have your Railcard with you. Do you have a Railcard? Are you entitled to one? If not that may be worth saying in your reply since it helps show that the person who gave your details presumably had a ticket with a railcard discount applied, but could not show it - which if you do not have a railcard you would presumably not have bought.
I do have a railcard, a 16-25 one, and it is digital so i always have this with me.
I have filled in the form they asked for, and have drafted out an email. Would the members here be able to read this and give me pointers on what else to add/subtract?
———————————-
Dear Sir/Madam
I would like to preface this by saying I have absolutely no explanation for this allegation.
On Friday, 18 March 2022 I travelled from Bentley to Meadowhall using an anytime day return ticket which I purchased at 6:56am using the Trainline app. I have proof of purchasing these tickets on Trainline as well as my digital railcard which I have attached to this email along with the completed form.
This journey was the same as any other journey, and I absolutely was not spoken to or stopped by any member of rail staff. I am concerned that someone has fraudulently given my name to the member of rail staff, did the member of rail staff ask for proof of identification?
I would like this to go as swiftly as possible, and am willing to provide any further information you require, but at this time this is all the information I can provide.
I would also like to know what the alleged contravention is, and where this alleged contravention occurred.
I eagerly await your response.
Regards,
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Agreed with @Haywain respond to them with copies of your tickets, railcard and explanation as to what your journey was and request that they double check their records, that they've contacted the correct person and that they are discontinuing any further action against you.
It sounds possibly like someone may have given your details instead of their own which is something which we do see from time to time. You may want to consider having a rummage around your credit history, change passwords, etc as possibly you've also been the victim of identify theft. Though that is harder to know. It could just be someone who knows enough about you to try and get out of a problem by giving your details.
Thank you for your response, please see my previous reply with an email I have drafted, would you be able to provide me with any improvements that could be made to this?
I am hesitant to say identity fraud, as I am young (early 20s) my best bet would be that someone I personally know, perhaps who I went to school with, was stopped and gave my details. But, because I do not have any details of what this allegation is it where it occurred, I cannot speculate further as to who it could be.
You can make the message stand out with the subject line, perhaps:
"Your ref. XXX: Apparent mistaken identity or identity theft?"
and the first line, such as,
"I have not been stopped or spoken to by anyone whilst using a train this year in relation to any possible allegation, so I am puzzled as to why I have received your letter."
You could follow it up shortly afterwards with a phone call with the aim of sleeping better tonight.
You can make the message stand out with the subject line, perhaps:
"Your ref. XXX: Apparent mistaken identity or identity theft?"
and the first line, such as,
"I have not been stopped or spoken to by anyone whilst using a train this year in relation to any possible allegation, so I am puzzled as to why I have received your letter."
You could follow it up shortly afterwards with a phone call with the aim of sleeping better tonight.
I would totally agree with this. Short and sweet and to the point. Wrong person. No confusion. You were not stopped or spoken to. It's now down to Northern to find the right person.
Barring some freak occurrence(s), they aren't going to get anywhere at all with this. So it's basically a case of how quickly you can get them to drop it. It seems reasonable to me that you could politely persist in trying to get it sorted out by the end of the day.
Did you use your railcard on the journey you made? Looking at the fares for Bently to Meadowhall they would all have been subject to the £12 minimum fare for travelling before 10am so if you had applied your railcard discount to them and then travelled before 10am they wouldn't have been valid.
I am hesitant to say identity fraud, as I am young (early 20s) my best bet would be that someone I personally know, perhaps who I went to school with, was stopped and gave my details. But, because I do not have any details of what this allegation is it where it occurred, I cannot speculate further as to who it could be.
I would like to preface this by saying I have absolutely no explanation for this allegation.
On Friday, 18 March 2022 I travelled from Bentley to Meadowhall using an anytime day return ticket which I purchased at 6:56am using the Trainline app. I have proof of purchasing these tickets on Trainline as well as my digital railcard which I have attached to this email along with the completed form.
This journey was the same as any other journey, and I absolutely was not spoken to or stopped by any member of rail staff. I am concerned that someone has fraudulently given my name to the member of rail staff, did the member of rail staff ask for proof of identification?
I would like this to go as swiftly as possible, and am willing to provide any further information you require, but at this time this is all the information I can provide.
I would also like to know what the alleged contravention is, and where this alleged contravention occurred.
Seems fine to me in general but I'd probably rejig the order slightly and perhaps go for something like:
Dear Sir/Madam
Thank you for your letter. I would like to preface this by saying at this time I believe that you have contacted the wrong person regarding this incident. On Friday, 18 March 2022 I travelled from Bentley to Meadowhall using an anytime day return ticket which I purchased at 6:56am using the Trainline app. This journey was the same as any other journey, and I do not recall being spoken to or stopped by any member of rail staff. I am concerned that someone has fraudulently given my name to the member of rail staff, did the member of rail staff ask for proof of identification?
I have proof of purchasing tickets on Trainline for my journey as well as my digital railcard which I have attached to this email along with the completed form.
I would also like to know what the alleged contravention is, and where and when this alleged contravention occurred.
I hope to deal with this issue as swiftly as possible, and I am willing to provide any further information you require. However, in the absence of further information from yourselves, this is all the information I can provide.
I eagerly await your response.
Regards,
(Usual I'm not a lawyer just some random person on the internet warning applies)
If the o p is positive that they were not stopped and spoken to does it not look a bit suspect that they mentioned an alternative Rail journey that they made on the same day. Would it not be better for them to just say they were not the person that was stopped and spoken to rather than anything else as it might look like a cover up.
I would like to preface this by saying I have absolutely no explanation for this allegation.
On Friday, 18 March 2022 I travelled from Bentley to Meadowhall using an anytime day return ticket which I purchased at 6:56am using the Trainline app. I have proof of purchasing these tickets on Trainline as well as my digital railcard which I have attached to this email along with the completed form.
This journey was the same as any other journey, and I absolutely was not spoken to or stopped by any member of rail staff. I am concerned that someone has fraudulently given my name to the member of rail staff, did the member of rail staff ask for proof of identification?
I would like this to go as swiftly as possible, and am willing to provide any further information you require, but at this time this is all the information I can provide.
I would also like to know what the alleged contravention is, and where this alleged contravention occurred.
A couple of points:
1. You have no explanation? You do, it wasn't you.
2. The journey details should be enough information - it's pretty unlikely that the person stopped was even in the same place as you.
3. The alleged contravention is no business of yours if it wasn't you.
What cover up is there in stating where you were, and demonstrating what ticket was purchased and used? In legal terms, it's called an alibi and it isn't anything dodgy.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Did you use your railcard on the journey you made? Looking at the fares for Bently to Meadowhall they would all have been subject to the £12 minimum fare for travelling before 10am so if you had applied your railcard discount to them and then travelled before 10am they wouldn't have been valid.
This i am unaware of, I have been able to successfully purchase “anytime day return” tickets using my railcard since I can remember. And I have never been spoken to by a staff member that I cannot do this in the morning. Just this morning i boarded the train, the conductor scanned my ticket, asked to see my railcard, and said thank you very much.
What cover up is there in stating where you were, and demonstrating what ticket was purchased and used? In legal terms, it's called an alibi and it isn't anything dodgy.
Do you suggest I refrain from mentioning my journey at this time and simply state that I was not stopped at all, and that they have the wrong person? Or should I just leave it in and let them know off the bat that I did make a journey on this date and give them the details of it?
Which railcard do you use? When you purchase a ticket on Trainline, do you select the train you travel on?
I'm wondering if a report has been made about you using a railcard at an invalid time, they've checked your purchase history and seen it's a frequent thing and used the details they hold on you to contact you here.
Which railcard do you use? When you purchase a ticket on Trainline, do you select the train you travel on?
I'm wondering if a report has been made about you using a railcard at an invalid time, they've checked your purchase history and seen it's a frequent thing and used the details they hold on you to contact you here.
… and they’ve then simply issued the wrong type of standard letter. I can see this turning into a bit of a minefield if the OP has a long history of using railcard discounts at the wrong time of day…
I think @ainsworth74 amended version of your letter is good.
Your other option (as suggested by others) is to provide them with less information - ie just say 'it was not me' but if it were me I would be trying to be reasonably helpful if you have nothing to hide - the more clearly you can give evidence that supports it was not you, surely logic would suggest (OK trusting faith...) that Northern will accept that quickly.
That is just my personal take of course.
You also may wish to ask them to confirm in writing eg that they accept this and will be taking no further action against you.
One thing seems strange - in that they did not use a postal address even if they also had an e-mail address. I mean if they stop someone I assume they would want a postal address since without one prosecuting someone (a step they will want to retain the right to do in general) would be hard without an address.
Is your e-mail address easy enough to work out as you suggested, such that Northern may have simply written someone else's e-mail address wrongly (typo for example) and it ended up with you? Hard for you to know conclusively of course.
I'll leave others to clarify the separate question of whether the ticket you held would have been valid with a railcard discount at that time of day. But it would be this you need to check you have not inadvertently breached (tho I note your point about staff having checked your ticket and Railcard on other occasions):
A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.
www.16-25railcard.co.uk
4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:
4.5.1. Advance tickets; or
4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or
4.5.3. journeys during July and August.
At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.
Do you suggest I refrain from mentioning my journey at this time and simply state that I was not stopped at all, and that they have the wrong person? Or should I just leave it in and let them know off the bat that I did make a journey on this date and give them the details of it?
No, I am suggesting that you should state that you were not stopped and tell them the journey you made. After all, if the person who apparently gave your name was stopped at, say, Leeds it's going to back up the fact that it wasn't you.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I'm wondering if a report has been made about you using a railcard at an invalid time, they've checked your purchase history and seen it's a frequent thing and used the details they hold on you to contact you here.
… and they’ve then simply issued the wrong type of standard letter. I can see this turning into a bit of a minefield if the OP has a long history of using railcard discounts at the wrong time of day…
How do they achieve this without stopping the OP and taking their details? The OP wasn't stopped, and the letter has a very distinct word - IF - before the railcard is mentioned.
No problem, it just bothers me that people are overcomplicating this. The OP wasn't stopped by anyone, so it is pointless speculating about what offence was (not) committed.
Quite a few replies to get through here, thank you all for your contributions.
A lot of you are alluring to the fact I used my 16-25 railcard on a journey that costs less than £12, which I now know is the minimum price of the ticket in order to use my railcard.
I accept this, and I should have been aware of this condition, and I am aware of this now. However as I have mentioned it has never been brought up to me by any conductors who have scanned my ticket and asked to see my railcard before. And as this letter clearly says “you were spoken to”, which I wasn’t, I don’t think it has anything to do with the railcard, and rather that the sentence regarding railcard is just the default template for the letter, as @Haywain said.
How do they achieve this without stopping the OP and taking their details? The OP wasn't stopped, and the letter has a very distinct word - IF - before the railcard is mentioned.
If a passenger is issued a Travel Irregularity Report, an address must be given and captured on the reporting system - it won't let you proceed without supplying an address. In this case, contact will always be made via post. However it is possible to submit what is basically a quick report - basically ticket number, train details and brief explanation of events. This can be done after the event - you can save the ticket number of a scanned eticket and use this later in the report - and you don't need to include an address. As this is faster, it can be the case that conductors will (rightly or wrongly) avoid the aggro of bringing issues up with the passenger and taking addresses etc. With an e-ticket, depending on the issue, the company may then request details from the seller. Sometimes these details may only be a name and email address in which case contact will be via email.
The fact that the OP has got an email rather than a letter me believe the report was made via e-ticket details rather than a passenger giving a false name and address. It seems a little too much of a co-incidence that the OP was travelling on a Northern train at the time of report and didn't actually have a valid ticket.
And as this letter clearly says “you were spoken to”, which I wasn’t, I don’t think it has anything to do with the railcard, and rather that the sentence regarding railcard is just the default template for the letter, as @Haywain said.
In the same way as the railcard sentence is part of the default template, so is "you were spoken to" - it could just as easily have said "a report has been made regarding" (in fact I believe this was the wording on a previous version of this letter).
If a passenger is issued a Travel Irregularity Report, an address must be given and captured on the reporting system - it won't let you proceed without supplying an address. In this case, contact will always be made via post. However it is possible to submit what is basically a quick report - basically ticket number, train details and brief explanation of events. This can be done after the event - you can save the ticket number of a scanned eticket and use this later in the report - and you don't need to include an address. As this is faster, it can be the case that conductors will (rightly or wrongly) avoid the aggro of bringing issues up with the passenger and taking addresses etc. With an e-ticket, depending on the issue, the company may then request details from the seller. Sometimes these details may only be a name and email address in which case contact will be via email.
The fact that the OP has got an email rather than a letter me believe the report was made via e-ticket details rather than a passenger giving a false name and address. It seems a little too much of a co-incidence that the OP was travelling on a Northern train at the time of report and didn't actually have a valid ticket.
In the same way as the railcard sentence is part of the default template, so is "you were spoken to" - it could just as easily have said "a report has been made regarding" (in fact I believe this was the wording on a previous version of this letter).
And if Northern are sending out letters / e-mails that are confusing to their recipients (is that so surprising....) this is going to create all sorts of complications.
So what is the OP best advised to do? They can only respond to the content of the letter they have been sent I guess.
Which would suggest a briefer reply is perhaps better at this stage - saying I was not stopped / questioned. It would probably be wise not to send a copy of the ticket held now, but instead to ask Northern if they can clearly state what sort of irregularity they believe has happened.
@Jammeeget - for background it may be an idea for you to carefully run some test purchases of a ticket for this journey through the retailer you usually use (Trainline? Northern?) setting the time of travel to the time you go, and seeing what if anything it says about the fare / use of the railcard as you progress through the booking system.
I don't use Trainline but there have been several other threads on here resulting from people misled by the way they have been sold a ticket from that site to suggest that things are maybe not always presented as clearly as they should be....
I am wondering if this is a case of Northern investigating digital tickets bought with a railcard discount by specifying travel on a train after 10am and then being used before this time, especially if there is a pattern of this happening regularly. It may be that they have evidence of this happening more than once but will only put this to then OP at an interview under caution or in court. As for the letter suggesting that the OP was spoken to, it may be that it is simply a generic cut and paste letter, that has not been accurately altered to represent the facts of this case (which is poor form but not unexpected from Northern).
Is a ticket sold at the wrong price invalid? If the OP were able to show that they purchased, and travelled, against an itinerary and paid the fare requested the fault is with the retailer and not the customer. I don't believe this speculation about offences that may have been committed is useful to the OP, and I do not believed that a ticket would have been scanned and a report made without the OP being asked for any information at all. It just doesn't happen.
Which would suggest a briefer reply is perhaps better at this stage - saying I was not stopped / questioned. It would probably be wise not to send a copy of the ticket held now, but instead to ask Northern if they can clearly state what sort of irregularity they believe has happened.
That would be my inclination. Don't lie and say you didn't travel that day, just say something along the lines of "I wasn't stopped or questioned, please could you explain what you believe has happened to send me this email".
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Is a ticket sold at the wrong price invalid? If the OP were able to show that they purchased, and travelled, against an itinerary and paid the fare requested the fault is with the retailer and not the customer.
100% yes. But the details that Trainline supply will include the ticket sold and the itinerary chosen (as far as I'm aware you cannot select a ticket without choosing a service). If the OP has a history of picking later trains to get the discount but actually travelling earlier, that's exactly the kind of thing they would be interested in and choose to follow up like this.
Regarding the Railcard discount: I have just checked NRE and LNER (bookmarked, I am lazy!) and no discount is applied at that time of day - the fare payable is £8.50. If the OP has paid that amount, they have done nothing wrong.
If they have paid less than that, they might want to prove that their app allowed it.
The letter says that on the 18th March I was “spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of railway regulations”. I have not been stopped by anyone at the station or on the train, I checked my emails and sure enough I have my tickets that I purchased on the day at 6:56am, the tickets I purchase every day that I get the train to work. It also says I was spoken to at 7:32am, but my train leaves its station at 7:02am and I change trains at another station at 7:20am, so this would have to have been on a train, but I had my ticket and railcard (digital) so I wouldn’t have had to be spoken to.
Just to pick up on a point from the original post: I can't see anything in the wording of the letter that says that you were spoken to while not on a train. The 'authorised member of staff' could have talked to you on the train.
Of course, we weren't there, and you were - but are you certain that no-one in a railway uniform came down the train and had a word with you that morning?
To the OP - def give some careful consideration to the important points made in posts #23 to #27 before you respond to the letter.
Obv if you are unsure what may be happening when you are buying your ticket feel free to ask as people here have the expertise to advise (eg I can easily see how someone could buy an Anytime ticket, seek to apply their Railcard discount without knowing the exact T&Cs, get the discount, and then mistakenly think the 'Anytime' ticket can be used at any time of day for this sort of short journey).
It's worth keeping this straightforward. It's up to Northern to put it beyond a doubt that you committed an offence, not the other way around. Simply responding thanking them for their letter and stating that nobody stopped you and that you're sure you didn't commit any offence and did pay the correct fare is sufficient.
It's worth keeping this straightforward. It's up to Northern to put it beyond a doubt that you committed an offence, not the other way around. Simply responding thanking them for their letter and stating that nobody stopped you and that you're sure you didn't commit any offence and did pay the correct fare is sufficient.
