And yet comfortable, reliable stock like the 379s are going off lease. It's a crazy world.
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TPE question: What stock is usually assigned to which diagrams?
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So surely the problem is that there aren’t enough 397s relative to 802s. 350s to supplement 397s may have been better than 802s, if they hadn’t gone to LNWR.
And this is why I don’t agree as much with 802s on the WCML. Using their bi-mode capability on the Calder Valley line is a very good idea, with Liverpool - Newcastle services being diverted that way starting on Saturday 21 May. I highly doubt that many of the 80x units will keep their Diesel engines permanently as long as electrification keeps pace, but they were ordered primarily for their bi-mode capability so they weren’t necessarily the best electric unit available, but given the amount of unelectrified lines over the Pennines, Diesel capability on both primary and diversionary routes is obviously essential, but other than for non-existent Settle - Carlisle diversions, what is the purpose of running them on the WCML?
I’m not sure how/why that has happened. Try asking Grand Central.
Which you could resolve if the add-on order was for more 397s instead of more 802s.
Do the diversionary routes have the capacity to accomodate everything that normally uses them, plus the full TPE service diverted from the normal route through Huddersfield? With TPE running at least four fast trains per hour plus the stoppers, I doubt it. While I am not familiar with what happens when there is engineering work on that route, I assume some services are diverted and others bustitued. TPE would still have its current fleet of 19 class 802s for Redcar/Saltburn, Hull and Scarborough services and, assuming the Calder Valley has capacity to take 2tph diverted TPE services on top of the regular Calder Valley services then you could simply divert two of those.
Electricity itself may be becoming greener, but building the infrustructure necessary to generate that electricity is never going to be totally zero-impact. Not having to build quite as many nuclear power stations / solar panels / wind turbines would be a plus.
However, my main concern is that, once the 805s and 810s are delivered, there will be over 180 high-speed bi-mode units on the GB network (and you could get that to 200 if you replaced the donkey engine in the 801s with batteries and used the engines to create additonal 800s). My view is that these should be cascaded around to support a rolling programme of electrification (eg. when the MML is done, the 810s move to XC and similar if and when the GW wires finally reach Oxford, Bristol and Swansea). It's much easier to refuse to electrify a bi-mode route if all other partly-wired routes already have their own bi-modes. Excluding the Turbostars, CrossCountry has less than 65 trains, and even with Turbostars it's still less than 100.
Some 802s were operating a Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street (via Newton-le-Willows) services yesterday, quite a lot of passengers were on them towards Manchester Airport!
Some 802s were also operating Manchester Piccadilly - Newcastle services (via Guide Bridge).
Some 802s were also operating Manchester Piccadilly - Newcastle services (via Guide Bridge).
driver9000
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The 802 is permitted to travel at 100mph on the Chorley line too....
802s are more suitable for these Lime Street - Manchester Airport Chat Moss services than 185s, because they at least make use of the electrification. Did the 802s use the electrification as far as Guide Bridge or not?
Cheshire Scot
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Can't or don't?
In terms of capability they have the same kit as cl 800 but that also requires lineside kit which is perhaps not fitted west of Colton Jn as for most journeys the power changeover can take place in the platform at man Vic. .
Also Guide Bridge being a diversionary route would be unlikely to have lineside kit fitted in any case (I suppose they could stop to changeover but that would add to journey time).
stantheman
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Are 802s replacing 397s on Scottish services soon ?
Not replacing, but supplementing. At least in the short term.
I don't think changeovers will ever take place at Guide Bridge - the route will be wired through to Stalybridge soon enough. But who knows.
Kieran1990
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I was going to start a thread but this is in relation to my question
How well utilised is the TPE fleet in regards to the 19 802’s as I don’t see the current timetable as using all of them?
Same for the 51 185’s.. not everything runs 6 car and a number of Hull, Redcar’s, Scarbs and Soutb TPE run 3 car
Are the 185’s that clapped out after being worked flat out before the Nova’s arrived?
How well utilised is the TPE fleet in regards to the 19 802’s as I don’t see the current timetable as using all of them?
Same for the 51 185’s.. not everything runs 6 car and a number of Hull, Redcar’s, Scarbs and Soutb TPE run 3 car
Are the 185’s that clapped out after being worked flat out before the Nova’s arrived?
They would never use all of them daily anyway. Each fleet will have a number of daily diagrams earmarked just for maintenance (exam regime, component changes etc).
For example out of the 19 802s full utilisation (SX) May be somewhere around 17 diagrams in traffic daily with two maintenance diagrams. Likewise for the 185s it may be something like 45 diagrams required daily with 6 maintenance.
Jamesrob637
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In a nutshell from most to least likely at the moment:
It won't turn up
It'll be 3-car
It'll be 6-car
It'll be 5-car but 5-car on the newer trains has very nearly as much capacity as 6-car on the older trains
Close the thread
It won't turn up
It'll be 3-car
It'll be 6-car
It'll be 5-car but 5-car on the newer trains has very nearly as much capacity as 6-car on the older trains
Close the thread
Can’t.
Drivers aren’t authorised to do it unless stationary and there’s no lineside equipment to support such action.
No, it was in diesel mode when inside / leaving Manchester Piccadilly (regarding the one going to Newcastle).
The one towards Liverpool / Manchester Airport was in electric mode though.
I would agree with this. It may seem logical to change power at Guide Bridge now, but just Piccadilly - Guide Bridge isn't exactly far out of a whole Manchester - York journey and the wires are already being extended to Stalybridge, so it is unlikely it will happen there. Is the lineside equipment to change power on the move likely to be fitted at Stalybridge, given that it is a much better place to change over, in the open air, than in the concrete box of Victoria? It would greatly improve air quality in the station if 802s ran through Victoria on electric mode.
I thought the Lime Street - Manchester Airport 802 would use electric mode. I have been meaning to go on one of those.
It looks like there are more planned TPE Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street diversionary services for the 3rd and 4th June. However, looking on RTT, they are showing as Diesel Multiple Units so chances are they could be 185s for those days.
Fingers crossed if some are 802s!
Looks like there are Manchester Piccadilly - Newcastle services booked that day also (again, via Guide Bridge). These look like they will be 802s according to RTT.
They will be pathed as 185s, but over ≤100mph routes, 185 and 802 timing loads are identical. So that doesn't tell you anything in itself. The best public indication is where the ECSs come from - if Ardwick then it's a 185, if Edge Hill then (for now) it's an 802.
Yes, that's the standard pattern. Effectively diverted into Piccadilly vice Liverpool with the Liverpool-Airport services picking up the Liverpool-Manchester leg of those, as well as the Piccadilly-Airport leg of the curtailed Redcar service.
Current operating instructions require diesel mode when leaving Manchester Airport. They could theoretically switch over to electric en-route (e.g. at Newton-le-Willows) but there are no changeover points so it's diesel all the way.
CAF397
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What's changed since the 802s were regularly working the Newcastle-Airports on electric to/from Manchester Victoria? Is it something to do with the instruction for 331s and 397s standing at certain signals?
driver9000
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That's the daily Driver training trip. 5M92 07:10 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport and 5S51 11:10 Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central.
Are they not the times of old TPE service?
The path of one of the currently withdrawn Glasgow services, yes. All of the Manchester-Glasgow services should (fingers crossed) be coming back in May.
That's right, they were running again today (to my surprise!). Looks like they are running again next week.
@Watershed I can confirm an 802 was running in electric mode between Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly/Oxford Road today (and onwards towards Liverpool).
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Yes I did Piccadilly - Manchester Airport - Lime Street on a 185 and then later Lea Green - Manchester Airport on an 802 which was on electric mode throughout but took half an hour to get from one side of Oxford Road to the other (and then Manchester Airport - Piccadilly on a 175) and then sat on the end of P14 at Piccadilly to watch the unexplained disruption continue through Oxford Road and all the 802s I saw pass were also in electric mode, except one heading to Guide Bridge. There was also a 68+Mk5a set ECS from Longsight to Walton Old Jn.
CAF397
Member
Can confirm some 802s running Piccadilly to Airport & vv today. All seen on electric, so there is no instruction to use diesel mode.
Are they not starting from Lime Street? This I believe is the last day of those since from next Saturday they will be running Lime Street - Newcastle via the Calder Valley, omitting Huddersfield.
CAF397
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Yes, running Liverpool to Airport. But my post specifically directed at the comment that they have to run in diesel mode to and from the Airport.
That is obviously now obsolete nonsense. I went on one to and from the airport on electric mode last week and there have been numerous reports of pantographs raised and engines not running. With P13/14 not a changeover point, the post claimed 802s would have to run on Diesel all the way to Lime Street because of some issue a few feet from the airport.
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