Phone speaker noise on trains - have we given up completely?

[Need2]

The argument can be then made that if you don’t want to hear loud conversations or music you should sit in the quiet coach. Otherwise it’s up to the individual (however rude it is perceived).

I couldn’t care less either way to be honest.

That’s if the train you’re on has one!
Just because you don’t mind doesn’t make it right.

 

[gazzaa2]

It's not just fear of being threatened that might stop people calling it out - if the person causing the noise is sat next to you or at a table with you, then even if they comply, you might have to spend the rest of the journey in an awkward atmosphere because they now resent you.

It should really be the job of train staff. While I get it that no-one wants confrontation (and the threat that might be attached) in their job, if it's already your duty to challenge people travelling without a valid ticket, then you ought also to be able to ask people to turn the noise down.

You never know when someone can turn violent these days either, or at least threaten you.

 

[Trainfan2019]

This type of noise really affects me because I'm diagnosed with Asperger's. I get really anxious and scared with intrusive noise. Trouble is people don't think there might be passengers onboard who just can't handle noise.

As the trains I use don't have designated quiet coaches I usually either get up and change carriages, sometimes more than once per journey or just put earphones in and listen to music.

 

[kristiang85]

I find far fewer people are talking on the phone as text communication is more popular.

Even then, some people have very loud beeps which go off every time a message comes in, which drives me insane.

For what its worth, my phone is always on vibrate only, and if anybody ever calls me I go to a vestibule to take it (though people very rare call me). It's not difficult, and I just wish there was some kind of 'passenger code' across all TOCs that meant everyone has as pleasant a journey as possible. It works perfectly fine in Japan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even then, some people have very loud beeps which go off every time a message comes in, which drives me insane.

For what its worth, my phone is always on vibrate only, and if anybody ever calls me I go to a vestibule to take it (though people very rare call me). It's not difficult, and I just wish there was some kind of 'passenger code' across all TOCs that meant everyone has as pleasant a journey as possible. It works perfectly fine in Japan.

To be fair Japan is a collectivist culture whereas the UK is an individualist one. That is hard to change.

 

[northwichcat]

To me we need to modify the relevant Byelaw to simply prohibit, as a strict liability offence, playing out loud of devices.

I think that might be difficult to word.

How do you prohibit someone from taking a call using speakerphone without prohibiting someone hard of hearing from turning the volume up high so they can hear the other person?

And can you prohibit someone from listening to a short interview (2 minutes) on a news website, when the receiver is placed up against their ear, without prohibiting someone from listening to a voice message left on Whatsapp?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that might be difficult to word.

How do you prohibit someone from taking a call using speakerphone without prohibiting someone hard of hearing from turning the volume up high so they can hear the other person?

And can you prohibit someone from listening to a short interview (2 minutes) on a news website, when the receiver is placed up against their ear, without prohibiting someone from listening to a voice message left on Whatsapp?

The present Byelaw already has those issues. All that matters is that the sound annoys someone. It doesn't matter if that annoyance is reasonable or not.

The simple key is this - nobody else should be able to hear it. If they would be able to, use headphones so they can't.

Wheeling out the standard RUK minority is not a helpful contribution to this (or any other) debate, really. Someone who is hard of hearing and considerate will take an approach that doesn't annoy 63 other people, i.e. headphones, an induction loop for their hearing aid, textual communication or whatever.

 

[northwichcat]

I fly quite rarely - last time was about 4 years ago.

Is it the same on planes now? And if not why not?

On planes I think the much louder engine noise prevents people from trying to listen to content without headphones. In fact, for some a pair of headphones isn't enough, it's need to be noise cancelling headphones to listen to things on a plane.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 May 2022 ==

The present Byelaw already has those issues. All that matters is that the sound annoys someone. It doesn't matter if that annoyance is reasonable or not.

The Equalities Act requires reasonable adjustments to be made for those who are disabled. Failure to make reasonable adjustments could lead to court action by a disability group against the train operator.

 

[jon0844]

I fly quite rarely - last time was about 4 years ago.

Is it the same on planes now? And if not why not?

I'd say that on a plane the ambient noise level means you're unlikely to hear it from very far away, nor indeed will the viewer/listener - so almost everyone will wear headphones.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Remember when the main irritation was being able to hear tinny noise leaking from headphones, and if you were the culprit, someone might actually ask you to turn the volume down? I'd happily return to that time now.

I feel that things seem to have rapidly gone downhill in the past few years, such that quite a large number of people have now decided it's fine to play whatever you like on your phone or tablet or laptop speakers.

It's become so widespread that I now wonder if it would be me who's out of step with social norms, if I were to ask someone to turn it off or get some headphones.

In the past, there might be one person in a carriage causing the noise irritation and a number of people around looking sufficiently annoyed that you would feel you'd have some backup if you decided to be the challenger.

Doesn't feel so much like that now.

Quiet coaches are not all that much help. I don't think I've ever seen a member of railway staff all someone to turn something down - even in quiet coaches.

So, has society decided it's acceptable and I just have to get used to it, and bring some noise cancelling headphones on any journey where I don't want to have to listen to several people's choice in music/YouTube videos/football matches/speakerphone calls simultaneously?

For longer journeys I think I'd actually pay a little extra to sit in a quiet coach with a fully enforced zero tolerance policy.

I, as a passenger and customer would quite happily tell someone to quieten down their volume or take their call in the vestibule if it was becoming a nuisance.

 

[365 Networker]

Experienced an absolutely awful journey on North Wales Coast recently, where the family (and friends) from hell got on, and decided to use a quite large bluetooth speaker to blast music at deafeningly high volume on a full and standing train. Kids were crying, dogs barking, but they were having a party so stuff everyone else. And these days, who dares to say anything to them?
In fact it has made me use the car a lot more again recently as I'm not prepared to endure that.

That reminds me of this:-

 

[Bletchleyite]

Experienced an absolutely awful journey on North Wales Coast recently, where the family (and friends) from hell got on, and decided to use a quite large bluetooth speaker to blast music at deafeningly high volume on a full and standing train. Kids were crying, dogs barking, but they were having a party so stuff everyone else. And these days, who dares to say anything to them?
In fact it has made me use the car a lot more again recently as I'm not prepared to endure that.

In my experience the North Wales Coast is terrible for ASB and long has been. I'm not always a fan of this approach, but TfW and Avanti would definitely do well to contract some Merseyrail style "rentathug" zero tolerance* Byelaw enforcers (yes, including this Byelaw, but also others like feet on seats, soiling the train etc) particularly for summer Saturdays. An alcohol ban might also be a good plan, at least on Saturdays and Sundays in summer when this issue is at its peak.

It's not a friendly approach but where there's a serious problem it does work.

* The Merseyrail approach doesn't involve asking you to remove your feet, rather on seeing an infringement the MG11 pad is brought out straight away. They also carry bodycams to record evidence of the offence.

 

[Runningaround]

Yes, I am utterly sick of it, it is downright antisocial.

To me we need to modify the relevant Byelaw to simply prohibit, as a strict liability offence, playing out loud of devices. At present it requires it to cause annoyance, and so it is hard to say staff should enforce without being asked, which is how I think it should be.

What's the point in modifying byelaws if the staff do nothing with them? The first time anyone will know is when staff approach and explain it, but then if it's going to be bother they won't turn up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the point in modifying byelaws if the staff do nothing with them? The first time anyone will know is when staff approach and explain it, but then if it's going to be bother they won't turn up.

At present it's only an offence if the sound is to someone's annoyance. Thus it can't be enforced without someone complaining unless the staff themselves are genuinely annoyed by it, which is probably not the case unless it's right next to the cab.

Whereas I feel that it should be an offence to play sound out loud intentionally regardless of who it does or doesn't affect, as complaining about another passenger can lead to serious awkwardness or worse.

 

[seagull]

In my experience the North Wales Coast is terrible for ASB and long has been. I'm not always a fan of this approach, but TfW and Avanti would definitely do well to contract some Merseyrail style "rentathug" zero tolerance* Byelaw enforcers (yes, including this Byelaw, but also others like feet on seats, soiling the train etc) particularly for summer Saturdays. An alcohol ban might also be a good plan, at least on Saturdays and Sundays in summer when this issue is at its peak.

Maybe a good idea (and maybe even essential in the potential not-too-distant future if behaviour descends to the point that damage is being done not just to TfW/Avanti reputation but also to the trains themselves.)
In the example I had - I was in the front carriage of three, full and standing so no way to even alert the guard. And the group consisted of several muscular men trying to "impress" their girlfriends/wives by being as loud and obnoxious as possible, both verbally and with use of a large portable speaker. The worst part was: it was mid-morning and I suspect they hadn't started on the sherbet yet, so heaven only knows what they were like on the way back.
When we got to Llandudno Junction (where the group along with most others left the train) there were two British Transport Police there, and for a brief moment I thought calm might be restored, but no. They continued on the platform, shouting, screaming, "singing" and running around, while the BTP just watched.
Which does rather make me wonder if, as the OP suggests, we have indeed given up completely dealing with anti-social behaviour.

 

[_toommm_]

Begs the question of why people play it out loud when you can get headphones from Poundland for, ironically, £1.50.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Begs the question of why people play it out loud when you can get headphones from Poundland for, ironically, £1.50.

I have considered buying a job lot and silently walking up to offenders and placing a pair on the table for them. Sadly many devices no longer have the standard socket and Bluetooth ones are too expensive for that.

 

[_toommm_]

I have considered buying a job lot and silently walking up to offenders and placing a pair on the table for them. Sadly many devices no longer have the standard socket and Bluetooth ones are too expensive for that.

I had a kid playing TikTok's on a train I was on to Carlisle a while ago, and we were all sick of it. After politely asking him several times I was really tempted to just give him £1.50 for some headphones.

 

[antharro]

This is an absolute pet hate. People who play their music out loud have absolutely no consideration for other people, and I have been known to call them out on it when it really annoys me. The response is usually obscene but at least I've tried. I do agree with a poster earlier who said it is certain types of people who are more likely to do this - although I have been known to have words with an older gent in a suit and tie who thought the quiet zone was the perfect place to have a phone conversation.

I would be very much in favour of the Merseyrail approach - straight out with an MG11, no "please don't do this" nonsense. They know full well they shouldn't be doing it, and I think if strong, regular enforcement was in place (including the last services of the day!) the problem would reduce significantly as the word would get out that there's a zero tolerance approach. Combine it with posters on stations telling people not to do it or face the consequences.

 

[Flying Snail]

Maybe a good idea (and maybe even essential in the potential not-too-distant future if behaviour descends to the point that damage is being done not just to TfW/Avanti reputation but also to the trains themselves.)
In the example I had - I was in the front carriage of three, full and standing so no way to even alert the guard. And the group consisted of several muscular men trying to "impress" their girlfriends/wives by being as loud and obnoxious as possible, both verbally and with use of a large portable speaker. The worst part was: it was mid-morning and I suspect they hadn't started on the sherbet yet, so heaven only knows what they were like on the way back.
When we got to Llandudno Junction (where the group along with most others left the train) there were two British Transport Police there, and for a brief moment I thought calm might be restored, but no. They continued on the platform, shouting, screaming, "singing" and running around, while the BTP just watched.
Which does rather make me wonder if, as the OP suggests, we have indeed given up completely dealing with anti-social behaviour.

It just increasingly puts off the decent majority who endure this crap too often and make the logical decision to just travel everywhere by car. That of course leaves public transport with an ever increasing % of the scum demographics that make it a consistently unpleasant experience for everyone else still using it.

 

[satisnek]

I think that the phone manufacturers should take a share of the blame here. What has been described above as a 'tinny speaker' is actually a ringtone sounder. These have a highly peaked frequency response in the lower treble (or sibilance) range and are primarily intended for penetrating alarm signals. Therefore, they're not even suitable for speech reproduction, let alone music. But to incorporate a speaker with a flat frequency response in the speech band (as a bare minimum) would involve making the device slightly thicker and/or increasing manufacturing costs. Alternatively, there's the possibility of fixed EQ - I've played around with the EQ on my phone (at home!) and got it to sound like a small radio (i.e. vaguely acceptable) but this is at the expense of volume, so it won't sell unless enforced by legislation.

I used to intervene but am very reluctant to do so now. As has been said, 90% of people own a smartphone, and they're all capable of recording images and sound. All forms of scum have their apologists and putting your head above the parapet runs the risk of being splattered all over social media. Best to get up and go and sit in the next carriage.

As for loudspeaking calls, something has dawned on me only very recently, and that is many of today's young people may never have actually used a 'traditional' phone. A smartphone bears no resemblance to any conventional handset and it's probably more intuitive to hold it in front of your face (particularly if you factor in video calls) than to the side of your head. That doesn't excuse older people from doing it, though...

 

[MCSHF007]

This is an absolute pet hate. People who play their music out loud have absolutely no consideration for other people, and I have been known to call them out on it when it really annoys me. The response is usually obscene but at least I've tried. I do agree with a poster earlier who said it is certain types of people who are more likely to do this - although I have been known to have words with an older gent in a suit and tie who thought the quiet zone was the perfect place to have a phone conversation.

I would be very much in favour of the Merseyrail approach - straight out with an MG11, no "please don't do this" nonsense. They know full well they shouldn't be doing it, and I think if strong, regular enforcement was in place (including the last services of the day!) the problem would reduce significantly as the word would get out that there's a zero tolerance approach. Combine it with posters on stations telling people not to do it or face the consequences.

This, and thrice this. Ignorant, selfish ars*holes who have no place in civilised society
You can buy a decent(ish) pair of bluetooth headphones for little more than a tenner. Absolutely no excuse for these oxygen-wasters.

 

[gazzaa2]

This is an absolute pet hate. People who play their music out loud have absolutely no consideration for other people, and I have been known to call them out on it when it really annoys me. The response is usually obscene but at least I've tried. I do agree with a poster earlier who said it is certain types of people who are more likely to do this - although I have been known to have words with an older gent in a suit and tie who thought the quiet zone was the perfect place to have a phone conversation.

I would be very much in favour of the Merseyrail approach - straight out with an MG11, no "please don't do this" nonsense. They know full well they shouldn't be doing it, and I think if strong, regular enforcement was in place (including the last services of the day!) the problem would reduce significantly as the word would get out that there's a zero tolerance approach. Combine it with posters on stations telling people not to do it or face the consequences.

It's the wider problem though. A lot of people need discipline and the country has gone so soft that people push the boundaries more and more.

The police don't want to know anymore if it's not an easy target.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Remember when the main irritation was being able to hear tinny noise leaking from headphones, and if you were the culprit, someone might actually ask you to turn the volume down? I'd happily return to that time now.

I feel that things seem to have rapidly gone downhill in the past few years, such that quite a large number of people have now decided it's fine to play whatever you like on your phone or tablet or laptop speakers.

It's become so widespread that I now wonder if it would be me who's out of step with social norms, if I were to ask someone to turn it off or get some headphones.

In the past, there might be one person in a carriage causing the noise irritation and a number of people around looking sufficiently annoyed that you would feel you'd have some backup if you decided to be the challenger.

Doesn't feel so much like that now.

Being retired for many years I think back to my early commuting days and there was, amongst 'us commuters' an unwritten rule that on the way in to work people sat and read their papers, or at most you might just hear a quiet whisper between two people occasionally. I learnt this in my late teens, it was just a case of mutual respect for each other on what was a crowded train. The one small part of the day when those going to work had a bit of peace to think, read or snooze, between the home (life) and the office. This may sound ridiculously old hat now, but that's how it was.

The largely (but not exclusively) generational/culture change that has evolved in more recent times, in life generally, doesn't always seem to respect such behaviours. There are those who are so engrossed in their own world, they don't give a thought to the space (and people) around them, but if approached because they were annoying others, would be embarrassed and apologetic. Then there are others intent on doing what ever they like and to hell with anyone who objects. There are times when it seems that the latter are in such numbers that they swamp the former, and as a result others who just want a quiet journey (talking of trains) feel intimidated in to saying/doing nothing, and so their experience of (in this case) train travel is marred.

In my younger years I generally never had a problem with approaching those on the train who were acting in ASB ways, be it loud music, feet (in shoes) on seats - a bug bear of mine - albeit I instinctively weighed situations up before doing so (ie: do I do this myself or get assistance) and it did help that I was in railway uniform for a period, but even after that (in civvies) when I would use my railway ID as authority. The trick was to always be polite, although there were exceptions - a newbie guard only passed out a day or two before on one occasion who was delaying his train (on which I was passing), so I approached him and he told me three adults, tanked up, were being very AS in one carriage and other passengers were becoming uneasy. Rather than turf everyone out, my offer of riding with the guard was accepted and we continued, the driver in the meantime made contact with the signaller to get BTP assistance at a station further down the line. The guard and I positioned ourselves in the carriage concerned more as reassurance to other passengers, and received a deluge of verbal abuse, but at least it was at us and not other passengers (did our presence in the carriage antagonise the culprits even more - in this case, I don't think so. They had already been giving other passengers a tirade of verbal BS. Most of the latter had by then moved to other carriages anyway.

Further on one very burly PS (Police Sergeant) turns up and singlehandedly removed the miscreants from the train and that was that!

On the other side of the coin, whilst just chatting to a member of gateline staff at a certain London station, one individual carrying a holdall barges his way through the barrier without offering a ticket, so the staff member calls after him and starts to follow him out the station. I tag along behind. This guy then stops, drops his bag, opens it and pulls out a claw hammer - that was the point I called out to my colleague (the railway was then still 'a family' - to me anyway - and I liked to think most of us would have each others back if needed) - and said, 'leave him, it ain't worth it, just let him go....'

As I say, it was partly about weighing a situation up, making a judgement, going with ones gut.

It's the wider problem though. A lot of people need discipline and the country has gone so soft that people push the boundaries more and more.

Agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that the phone manufacturers should take a share of the blame here. What has been described above as a 'tinny speaker' is actually a ringtone sounder.

Not universally true. Tablet speakers are intended for media consumption, they just aren't very good quality. But this is a bit by the by, it is still annoying to be forced to consume someone else's media even if it is played via the most expensive speaker in Bose's range.

 

[raspberrypeel]

I did actually see a staff member tell someone to stop playing audio out loud, fairly recently. It was in September 2021, travelling between Newcastle and London on LNER.

Late-middle-aged woman across the aisle was flicking through a Facebook feed of videos, each of them playing at full volume. I was probably a minute away from asking her to turn it off, but the attendant did that for me. She then started doing it again a few minutes later, at which point the attendant glared at her and sat down in a nearby seat for a few minutes. I think she either stopped or got off the train quite soon after, I can't remember, but it wasn't an issue again.

In my opinion, it's a clear sign of the continuing decline of the social contract between citizens of this country. I'm 23, so bear in mind I'm not ranting from a "grrr young people these days!" perspective, it's just the truth. It's awful public behaviour, and a more civilised country wouldn't tolerate it. I can accept phone calls being done at normal volume levels on train carriages, that's just the same as having a conversation. If you are going to shout down the phone or talk really excitedly, go to the vestibule.

In terms of music/videos being played aloud, there are 3 main culprits from my experience:

1. Children - enabled by their parents, who don't want to risk their little darling throwing a tantrum. Usually some kids YouTube video or game.

2. Teenagers/chavs - complete lack of respect, or done deliberately as some sort of way of establishing dominance.

3. People in their 50s-60s - just seem to be completely unaware as to how annoying playing audio aloud is. Normal adults younger than them usually use earphones, older adults tend not to watch video content on public transport anyway.

 

[al78]

Can we also prohibit loud conversations ?

Yes please. If you are sat next to someone there is no need to converse at a volume as if they were standing on the other side of the Albert hall.

Victor Meldrew does what some of us would like to do in the first three minutes of this clip, and unfortunately suffers the likely consequence:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2022 ==

"Excuse me, do you mind..."

The modern fascination for more regulation, more laws is not a good thing. Use what we already have. Or, perhaps, stop being miserable

It is not about fascination, it is about not wanting people to unnecessarily externalise unwanted side effects onto others, or to put it another way, to behave in a thoughtful and civilised manner, treat others as you would like to be treated yourself, as their parents should have brought them up to do if they had done their job properly.

 

[Andypandy1968]

It's not just fear of being threatened that might stop people calling it out - if the person causing the noise is sat next to you or at a table with you, then even if they comply, you might have to spend the rest of the journey in an awkward atmosphere because they now resent you.

It should really be the job of train staff. While I get it that no-one wants confrontation (and the threat that might be attached) in their job, if it's already your duty to challenge people travelling without a valid ticket, then you ought also to be able to ask people to turn the noise down.

Not many train staff around on DOO trains!

 

[stuu]

I'd say that on a plane the ambient noise level means you're unlikely to hear it from very far away, nor indeed will the viewer/listener - so almost everyone will wear headphones.

The plane I was on the other day had several people around me listening to content without headphones, they just turn the volume up to compensate

Mobile devices produce much better (and louder) sound now than they used to, so this problem is only going to get worse.

 

[kristiang85]

The plane I was on the other day had several people around me listening to content without headphones, they just turn the volume up to compensate

Mobile devices produce much better (and louder) sound now than they used to, so this problem is only going to get worse.

Last year I treated myself to a business class seat back from the Middle East so I could get some peace and quiet as I had to go straight into work the next day. Of course the row behind me was full of children and their parents had let them loose on their devices without any kind of headphones. Cue an entire flight of beeps and bleeps and no sleep for me...

Note to self: avoid planes at the end of half term.