Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[Peter Sarf]

6L22 1730 Dollands Moor - Ripple Lane 92042 66001 231001 231003 dep 7 late
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H20713/2022-04-25/detailed

Is it true the units are covered in graffiti ?.

 

[Caaardiff]

however its more likely in that case that 197's would also be used but then again having the whole fleet cleared would allow for the best service under such conditions

No, and no.

The chances of Valleys drivers getting trained on 197s are pretty slim.

Exactly that, as well as.... 197's are over 23m long so won't be much use on the tram routes

 

[3973EXL]

Is it true the units are covered in graffiti ?.

Yes

 

[St. Paddy]

Currently at Bristol Parkway en route to Cardiff

 

[Signal_Box]

Made it to Canton after a fashion, one unti has had a partial repaint en route unfortunately.

 

[Jacob Didcote]

Here's a few photos from this morning.

 

[Signal_Box]

Bloody hell, I wonder where it was attacked ? Doesn’t look good if the train came all the way from Switzerland to England only to be attacked on Ripple Lane yard !

I also wonder who picks up the cost of a repaint or cleaning?

 

[Anonymous10]

Here's a few photos from this morning.

thats quite the unwelcome repaint. its sad that its happened on a new train. i wonder who will pay for this

 

[Geeves]

I dont think its been done in this country, the long lay overs coming over Europe make them easy targets especially stabled next to stations, a 777 and 700 came through the tunnel in a right state

 

[Signal_Box]

I’ve heard in the underground graffiti community there is quite a big credibility for tagging a brand new train, their very switched on the movements and opportunities to access the train in dark yards on even on booked looped stops !

 

[krus_aragon]

I’ve heard in the underground graffiti community there is quite a big credibility for tagging a brand new train, their very switched on the movements and opportunities to access the train in dark yards on even on booked looped stops !

Maybe we should start a tradition of tagging these graffiti artists instead?

 

[Dai Corner]

I’ve heard in the underground graffiti community there is quite a big credibility for tagging a brand new train, their very switched on the movements and opportunities to access the train in dark yards on even on booked looped stops !

They probably even lurk in railway forums to find gen and photos of their efforts.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why is the full order not just 756s? The 231s will be operating on diesel between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff Central wholly under the wires.

 

[Dai Corner]

Why is the full order not just 756s? The 231s will be operating on diesel between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff Central wholly under the wires.

Probably the same reason the majority of trains on that section are diesel-only. It's a very small proportion of the mileage they do and doesn't justify the extra cost or traincrew training etc.

 

[Trainbike46]

Probably the same reason the majority of trains on that section are diesel-only. It's a very small proportion of the mileage they do and doesn't justify the extra cost or traincrew training etc

Wouldn't having just one class (756) instead of 2 (231 and 756) be cheaper or at least not more expensive for crew training, as well as more flexible when swaps are needed?

 

[Dai Corner]

Wouldn't having just one class (756) instead of 2 (231 and 756) be cheaper or at least not more expensive for crew training, as well as more flexible when swaps are needed?

I don't think anybody is going to be driving or guarding both 231s and 756s.

 

[Trainbike46]

I don't think anybody is going to be driving or guarding both 231s and 756s.

So then there is no crew training advantage (or disadvantage) to having two classes instead of one.

Fleet flexibility would still be an advantage of having all 756 over two classes, though I guess probably not massive either?

So it really comes down to the price difference between a 231 and a 756. Is that big? does anyone know what either type of unit costs?

 

[craigybagel]

I don't think anybody is going to be driving or guarding both 231s and 756s.

As things are at present, Cardiff Mainline crews would need to be qualified on both - Valleys and Mainline crews swap over at Cardiff Central on Bridgend via VOG services.

However, there are rumours of a rearranging of the depots at Cardiff, with one set of crews working the Stadlers (both on Rhymney Valley services and Cardiff - Ebbw/Maesteg/Cheltenham) and the Tram Train services being a separate link.

That said, I can't imagine the conversion from one Stadler to the other is terribly complicated, and it looks like that's the short term plan for Rhymney anyway

 

[AdamWW]

Wouldn't having just one class (756) instead of 2 (231 and 756) be cheaper or at least not more expensive for crew training, as well as more flexible when swaps are needed?

I thought I'd read that the 231's have larger fuel tanks than the 756's, i.e. both 231s and 756s are optimised for their intended duties.

As Alex above suggested, probably empty spaces for the lumps of equipment, but what about all the copper traction cabling ? I am sure some of it is there for the elleccy from the generator "shed" to the traction motors, but I am assuming Stadler didn't install the 25kV cabling so you would need a licensed workshop to carry that retro installation out.

Not suggesting it is impossible at all because it would theoretically be easier than hanging rafts under the class 319 cars, but you would need

a) Someone to pay for the alterations
b) a licensed premises to do the work
c) cover for the units while they were out of commission

I'm happy to be corrected by those who know more than me, but I thought that one of the selling points of FLIRTs was that they have a modular design and all that is needed to change the power modes is to alter the power pack car (and if required add a pantograph and - I presume - appropriate cabling).

I think I read that the Anglian FLIRTs could be converted to pure electric by removing the power pack but can't find a link to that anywhere, though I did find this link (admittedly from Canada) which says:

The FLIRTs are driven by electric traction motors with power provided by the "Power Pack". The Power Pack is a special car located in the middle of each trainset that can contain up to 4 diesel generators which provide the electricity used to drive the train. Because of this diesel-electric design, when the Trillium Line is eventually electrified, the FLIRTs can be easily converted to fully electric trains by removing the Power Pack car and installing pantographs

Edited to add: I suppose if you want to add 25 kV capability to a train a transformer might come in handy too - as you say there is presumably space left for that.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Why is the full order not just 756s? The 231s will be operating on diesel between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff Central wholly under the wires.

I believe there are interior layout differences (and, according to some sources, one fewer set of exterior doors on the 231s compared to 4-car 756s) not just the different traction power arrangements, but the question of why not have a pantograph (especially given the Welsh Government's target of wires to Swansea by 2030 which would further increase the under-wires mileage on the 231's Maesteg-Cheltenham work).

So it really comes down to the price difference between a 231 and a 756. Is that big? does anyone know what either type of unit costs?

Good question.

 

[Caaardiff]

I thought I'd read that the 231's have larger fuel tanks than the 756's, i.e. both 231s and 756s are optimised for their intended duties.

Correct, and the fuel mileage of the 231 isn't anything to shout about either. So the order was made to suit the journeys they will be making, most of which isn't electrified. Even wiring to Swansea doesn't benefit the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Gloucester lines once off thr main line.

 

[Envoy]

Correct, and the fuel mileage of the 231 isn't anything to shout about either. So the order was made to suit the journeys they will be making, most of which isn't electrified. Even wiring to Swansea doesn't benefit the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Gloucester lines once off thr main line.

But surely, having Severn Tunnel Junction to Bridgend wired might swing it in favour having the ability to use overhead power?

 

[Dai Corner]

But surely, having Severn Tunnel Junction to Bridgend wired might swing it in favour having the ability to use overhead power?

A more integrated railway may well have electrified to Swansea via the main and Vale of Glamorgan lines plus Penarth and Barry. Maybe also Ebbw Vale and Maesteg too. The cost could have been spread by using refurbished EMUs initially which could have enabled the Valley lines to be done properly too, with no need for batteries or Diesel engines.

But that's all speculation and for another thread.

 

[3973EXL]

02/05 6L22 1730 Dollands Moor - Ripple Lane 92042 66001 231005 231006
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H20713/2022-05-02/detailed

STP 02/05 2154 Ripple Lane - Canton dep RT

Realtime Trains | 592B 2154 Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 02/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 592B 2154 departure from Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 02/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bob Price]

Currently running 20 minutes early. How quickly are they coming off the production line? All 12 will be here by the end of the summer at this rate.

 

[Anonymous10]

Currently running 20 minutes early. How quickly are they coming off the production line? All 12 will be here by the end of the summer at this rate.

is it possible tfw have requested them ASAP to help alleviate rolling stock pressures?

 

[CapitalStar378]

Hopefully this time minus a load of graffiti

 

[Bob Price]

is it possible tfw have requested them ASAP to help alleviate rolling stock pressures?

Very possible. There is a need to get the 769's sorted, seen some video of them struggling to get up the hill out if Penarth

 

[Anonymous10]

Very possible. There is a need to get the 769's sorted, seen some video of them struggling to get up the hill out if Penarth

would be the right decision imo

 

[Buzz68]

Are TfW expecting 11 231's and 7 3-cars 756's and 17 4-cars

Also do we know when the first 756's are due. Last i heard one was on test in Hungary.