Confirmation on class 379 to Great Northern???

[Magdalia]

Whilst the taxpayer might not be wasting any money on them specifically, they are likely to raise the overall cost of leasing trains, as the financing companies will adjust their expected risk and likely end up charging more for trains in future to compensate.

That's marginal compared to the increase in financing costs due to rising interest rates.

And, following the recent changes in travelling patterns, there won't be much in the way of new rolling stock orders any time soon.

 

[317 forever]

Regardless of the excuses or reasons for the 379s becoming surplus it is an ecological mistake to be prematurely scrapping any thing that has a carbon footprint resulting from its manufacture. Unless, of course, said item has huge costs ecologically connected with its use. A new diesel train replaced by an older electric or hybrid train might be justifiable.

At the end of the day it is ironic that, for the want of more electrification, we have relatively new electric trains going to waste.

The least worst approach ecologically would be to dispose of the older electric trains first. For example Southerns 313s and 455s.

It does not matter how cheap finance is these unwanted units still have to be paid for and the carbon footprint of manufacture does not go away.

Has it been confirmed that the Southern 313s are about to be replaced? If so, will they become spare through natural wastage ie service or train length reductions due to lower volumes of peak-hour commuting?

 

[JonathanH]

Has it been confirmed that the Southern 313s are about to be replaced? If so, will they become spare through natural wastage ie service or train length reductions due to lower volumes of peak-hour commuting?

Yes, the suggestion is that they will be replaced later this year as part of an increase in the 377 fleet using half of the 377/5 fleet currently with Southeastern.

 

[A0]

Woah, that's a bit radical isn't it?

Go on then - where would *you* wire and set 350/2s to work?

 

[AzureOtsu]

Go on then - where would *you* wire and set 350/2s to work?

Put shoes on them and stick them on South Croydon - Milton Keynes as they have prior route clearance (350/1) to release 377/2s & 377/7s to cover the loss of 455s and 313s.

 

[A0]

Put shoes on them and stick them on South Croydon - Milton Keynes as they have prior route clearance (350/1) to release 377/2s & 377/7s to cover the loss of 455s and 313s.

The /2s never had shoes fitted - it's not clear if they even have dual voltage capability. Nor is it clear whether 350s are still cleared on the West London Line or down to Croydon.

Notwithstanding, why would Southern want half a dozen Desiros in what is pretty much a fully Electrostar fleet?

And there's some debate about the future of the MK - Croydon service in any case - in fact from the May timetable change all but a couple of trains will only be running to Watford Jnc (a couple are extended to Hemel Hempstead).

 

[AzureOtsu]

The /2s never had shoes fitted - it's not clear if they even have dual voltage capability. Nor is it clear whether 350s are still cleared on the West London Line or down to Croydon.

Notwithstanding, why would Southern want half a dozen Desiros in what is pretty much a fully Electrostar fleet?

And there's some debate about the future of the MK - Croydon service in any case - in fact from the May timetable change all but a couple of trains will only be running to Watford Jnc (a couple are extended to Hemel Hempstead).

It makes more sense to transfer the service to London North Western railway anyways considering the majority of the service is in their territory - that way southern can keep their exclusive electrostar fleet. if its transferred to LNWR, they can simply keep the 350/2s, and stick the 350/1s on the route with shoegear if the 350/2s don't have the capability.

 

[A0]

It makes more sense to transfer the service to London North Western railway anyways considering the majority of the service is in their territory - that way southern can keep their exclusive electrostar fleet. if its transferred to LNWR, they can simply keep the 350/2s, and stick the 350/1s on the route with shoegear if the 350/2s don't have the capability.

Not now it's only Watford - West Croydon.

According to Railmiles Willesden - Watford is ~12 miles, Willesden - West Croydon is 15 miles.

And WMR/LNW won't be keeping the 350/2s - they're getting 5 car 730s which are 24m car length compared to 20m of the 350s.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Not now it's only Watford - West Croydon.

According to Railmiles Willesden - Watford is ~12 miles, Willesden - West Croydon is 15 miles.

And WMR/LNW won't be keeping the 350/2s - they're getting 5 car 730s which are 24m car length compared to 20m of the 350s.

I see, I'm sure it's been discussed to transfer the service to london overground since it falls entirely within their territory but that's a discussion for another thread

 

[bramling]

Go on then - where would *you* wire and set 350/2s to work?

There seems to be little good reason why they’re being displaced in the first place, and really same can be said for the West Midlands 323s. Dare one suggest that the Northern 323s could have all gone to the West Midlands and the combined 319/323 fleet at Northern could have been replaced by 365s.

 

[D365]

There seems to be little good reason why they’re being displaced in the first place, and really same can be said for the West Midlands 323s. Dare one suggest that the Northern 323s could have all gone to the West Midlands and the combined 319/323 fleet at Northern could have been replaced by 365s.

Commercials - plus the fact that the full Cl365 fleet was not available when the Midlands and Northern franchise commitments were made.

 

[bramling]

Commercials - plus the fact that the full Cl365 fleet was not available when the Midlands and Northern franchise commitments were made.

Again, lack of any strategy in respect of rolling stock deployment / procurement. A guiding hand might well have planned for the 379s to take the place of the 21 GN 365s, releasing the full fleet for Northern. As things have turned out, the timings would have worked out quite well.

LNWR simply didn’t need a new fleet.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Again, lack of any strategy in respect of rolling stock deployment / procurement. A guiding hand might well have planned for the 379s to take the place of the 21 GN 365s, releasing the full fleet for Northern. As things have turned out, the timings would have worked out quite well.

LNWR simply didn’t need a new fleet.

But of course they did, the DaFT put a bidding clause in that they had to update the rolling stock, either through multi million pound refurbs or just hand them back get a new ROSCO and have new trains.

I wonder which one they chose?

 

[Wolfie]

That doesn't necessarily follow. It's a competitive market - some of the trains which have arrived since the 350/2s and 379s are cheaper to lease because of the deals being offered.

The challenge for those leasing companies with out of lease stock is how much they can reduce their costs, because it is believed the 350/2s are costing more than the 350/1 and 350/4s, similarly the 379s are more than the very similar 387s.

True enough but such deals are probably less likely with interest rates on the rise. Why the ROSCOs didn't refinance the more expensive loans though....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2022 ==

I see, I'm sure it's been discussed to transfer the service to london overground since it falls entirely within their territory but that's a discussion for another thread

London Overground would doubtless want more 710s in that case to free up dual voltage 378s. With an all Bombardier/Alstom fleet they'd no more want a small number of Desiros than Southern would.

 

[A0]

Again, lack of any strategy in respect of rolling stock deployment / procurement. A guiding hand might well have planned for the 379s to take the place of the 21 GN 365s, releasing the full fleet for Northern. As things have turned out, the timings would have worked out quite well.

LNWR simply didn’t need a new fleet.

But it *did* need more capacity, particularly on the WM suburban services, which is why 26 x 323s are being replaced with 36 x 730/0.

The 730s also offered better flexibility than the 350/2s for the LNW services being 5x23 m rather than 4x20 m of the 350/2s.

 

[skyhigh]

Dare one suggest that the Northern 323s could have all gone to the West Midlands and the combined 319/323 fleet at Northern could have been replaced by 365s.

Of course the issue with that is there are platforms which are long enough for 2x323, but not 2x365 - meaning you'd have capacity reductions unless you extended platforms or installed ASDO on the 365s

 

[A0]

Of course the issue with that is there are platforms which are long enough for 2x323, but not 2x365 - meaning you'd have capacity reductions unless you extended platforms or installed ASDO on the 365s

That's before the whole issue of the 365s being non standard comes into play. Yes, so are the 323s, but there's more of those and they are shorter so don't have the platform issues, plus Northern are already familiar with them.

Somebody was going to end up with all the 323s - in some ways Northern made more sense than LNW/WMR.

In anycase the 365s are sitting on the shelves of the supermarkets now, so their future use is already happening.

 

[bramling]

But it *did* need more capacity, particularly on the WM suburban services, which is why 26 x 323s are being replaced with 36 x 730/0.

The 730s also offered better flexibility than the 350/2s for the LNW services being 5x23 m rather than 4x20 m of the 350/2s.

Extra capacity for the west mids could have come from concentrating the entire 323 fleet there.

I don’t really buy the point about the 730s offering extra flexibility - firstly there’s now going to be a mixed fleet with the 350/1s, secondly 4-car units offers the flexibility to make up three different lengths, 5-cars is frequently insufficient as has proven to be the case time and again with operators who have 5-car fleets.

One does suspect a lot of the WM fleet replacement was for political reasons - a 90s fleet in Birmingham and a 00s fleet on the WCML could hardly be seen as ageing, plus there had only fairly recently been a fleet replacement on the Snow Hill lines. Meanwhile, the other side of the midlands has had to struggle on with not enough DMUs - which returns us to the topic of 379s, laid up in sidings whilst people crowd onto DMUs.

 

[A0]

Extra capacity for the west mids could have come from concentrating the entire 323 fleet there.

Which I said - but the issue for Northern is short platforms on some routes so 3 or 6 x 23m works better for them than 4 or 8 x 20.

If Northern had *wanted* the 365s it could probably have had them - perhaps there's a reason they didn't?

 

[bramling]

Which I said - but the issue for Northern is short platforms on some routes so 3 or 6 x 23m works better for them than 4 or 8 x 20.

If Northern had *wanted* the 365s it could probably have had them - perhaps there's a reason they didn't?

The full fleet wasn’t available at the time, GTR weren’t planning to offload them. Indeed it was only by fluke they were able to.

Surely the cost of a few platform extensions (with the benefit of a bit of extra capacity over 6/323) would be more worthwhile than the cost of building a fleet which didn’t need to be built for WMT?

 

[A0]

The full fleet wasn’t available at the time, GTR weren’t planning to offload them. Indeed it was only by fluke they were able to.

Surely the cost of a few platform extensions (with the benefit of a bit of extra capacity over 6/323) would be more worthwhile than the cost of building a fleet which didn’t need to be built for WMT?

"A few platform extensions" - it really isn't that simple - you'll have signal positioning, junctions to consider. Have you ever looked at the bay platform at Stoke on Trent for example? Perhaps you could offer us your wisdom as to how that could be addressed - bearing in mind it's a listed building. I'm all ears.

 

[bramling]

"A few platform extensions" - it really isn't that simple - you'll have signal positioning, junctions to consider. Have you ever looked at the bay platform at Stoke on Trent for example? Perhaps you could offer us your wisdom as to how that could be addressed - bearing in mind it's a listed building. I'm all ears.

In the latter case, there’s two sidings south of the station which look to be able to be made to accommodate 160m of train. More convenient for passengers too as terminating services would arrive in the up platform.

 

[Flinn Reed]

Not now it's only Watford - West Croydon.

According to Railmiles Willesden - Watford is ~12 miles, Willesden - West Croydon is 15 miles.

And WMR/LNW won't be keeping the 350/2s - they're getting 5 car 730s which are 24m car length compared to 20m of the 350s.

The West London line is being reduced to only Watford Junction to Clapham Junction. So actually no longer parallels any other Southern services, but will run alongside LNWR between Watford and Wembley.

 

[dk1]

According to MR magazine (July 22) GWR have expressed an interest for 30 x EMUs for use from April 2023. They will be maintained at Reading depot alongside their current fleet. I know you cannot jump to conclusions but it all seems to fit in nicely with the 379 fleet numbers which should start moving from warm storage locations during September.

 

[JonathanH]

According to MR magazine (July 22) GWR have expressed an interest for 30 x EMUs for use from April 2023. They will be maintained at Reading depot alongside their current fleet. I know you cannot jump to conclusions but it all seems to fit in nicely with the 379 fleet numbers which should start moving from warm storage locations during September.

Yes, discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-tender-for-30-x-4-car-emus.232520/

The conclusion appeared to be that it was mainly a chance for the owner of the 379s to come up with their best price. The wording of the tender appears to imply 'instead of' rather than 'alongside'.

 

[dk1]

Yes, discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-tender-for-30-x-4-car-emus.232520/

The conclusion appeared to be that it was mainly a chance for the owner of the 379s to come up with their best price. The wording of the tender appears to imply 'instead of' rather than 'alongside'.

Bugger!! How did I miss that one?? Thanks.

 

[YSTrains]

So what could happen is that the GWR 387s will head to Southern, which will be replaced by the 379s. The HX 387s will stay I assume.

 

[JonathanH]

So what could happen is that the GWR 387s will head to Southern, which will be replaced by the 379s. The HX 387s will stay I assume.

Anything could happen but not necessarily this. Why does Southern need more units? A leaner railway is a better one from the point of view of reducing costs.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Anything could happen but not necessarily this. Why does Southern need more units? A leaner railway is a better one from the point of view of reducing costs.

Have you seen the overcrowding on Southern as a result of the 455 withdrawal?

 

[ashkeba]

Have you seen the overcrowding on Southern as a result of the 455 withdrawal?

No. Can you show us?