awaiting prosecution letter

[philthetube]

What is the point in being required to show a railcard at a booking office if it is not looked at, if it is not checked this is a pointless exercise which causes people problems for no reason,

 

[Fawkes Cat]

What is the point in being required to show a railcard at a booking office if it is not looked at, if it is not checked this is a pointless exercise which causes people problems for no reason,

It's historic. When railcards first came out, tickets were overwhelmingly bought face to face, so requiring them to be shown was a fairly effective way of ensuring that someone buying a ticket was entitled to it.

Now, tickets are (mainly? overwhelmingly? at least a significant minority) bought on line or from ticket machines which can't check whether a valid railcard is held. And with the rise in tickets bought in advance, passengers will be reluctant to buy a railcard at the time of booking their ticket if they've bought the ticket a couple of months in advance but otherwise won't be using the railcard until the day of travel.

It seems to me that there's a need for a rethink. Either what seems to have been the original idea (that a railcard should be held at the date of purchase) should be imposed across all sales channels (with everything that means in terms of annoying customers and enhancing systems), or the requirement to show your railcard at a ticket office should be dropped (with the implications that has for revenue protection against passengers who do start at a ticket office).

 

[Haywain]

It's historic. When railcards first came out, tickets were overwhelmingly bought face to face, so requiring them to be shown was a fairly effective way of ensuring that someone buying a ticket was entitled to it.

Not only face to face, but on the day of travel.

It seems to me that there's a need for a rethink.

I agree. Some years ago I queried this with a pricing manager but the overall feeling at that level was that checking at ticket offices somehow protected revenue - not something I agree with. Whether there is a desire to change now, I couldn't say. Some staff, of course, tend to be more pragmatic when dealing with those buying tickets ahead of the day of travel.

 

[The_Van]

What is the point in being required to show a railcard at a booking office if it is not looked at, if it is not checked this is a pointless exercise which causes people problems for no reason,

They don't even ask to see the card at my local station

 

[MikeWh]

I'm rapidly approaching the time where I will want to buy Railcard discounted tickets in advance but at the time of sale I won't be eligible to hold the Railcard.

 

[_toommm_]

I'm rapidly approaching the time where I will want to buy Railcard discounted tickets in advance but at the time of sale I won't be eligible to hold the Railcard.

Any ticket selling website is your solution to that problem. If you prefer paper tickets, then of course you can get the tickets issued through Ticket on Departure.

 

[Haywain]

I'm rapidly approaching the time where I will want to buy Railcard discounted tickets in advance but at the time of sale I won't be eligible to hold the Railcard.

Soon turning 16?

 

[xdragonflyx]

Although I agree that is it not the responsibility of the Booking Office staff to notice any discrepancy, the fact that the the Railcard was shown would tend to show there was no intention

Not only face to face, but on the day of travel.

I agree. Some years ago I queried this with a pricing manager but the overall feeling at that level was that checking at ticket offices somehow protected revenue - not something I agree with. Whether there is a desire to change now, I couldn't say. Some staff, of course, tend to be more pragmatic when dealing with those buying tickets ahead of the day of travel.

lesson learnt im never buying a railcard again and if i do I'm never trusting the booking office staff again . I would like to avoid this situation happening ever again. Originally it was for going to school but now after this experience, I plan to learn to drive by end of year maybe I will catch the coach to London , i need a good 6 months away from those trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

What is the point in being required to show a railcard at a booking office if it is not looked at, if it is not checked this is a pointless exercise which causes people problems for no reason,

i don't know to be honest cause I remember buying it the man ask me to show him the railcard I put it through the draw thing at the front , face up he looked at it ,picked it up and gave me the ticket. Seems like a very useless exercise if the staff are not going to check it properly. the Revenue officer was even surprised himself when I told him I had bought it at the booking office. I wish I had showed him the receipt but I kind of didn't realize what was going on this was my first time ever seeing an inspector and the whole thing was confusing. He did apologise and said the only reason he was doing it was because of how dated my railcard was , which I understand it looks sketchy but I just don't travel I like to stay at home or at uni and just walk around and stay in my room

 

[philthetube]

If a member of staff looks at the railcard and accepts it then in my mind he has given permission to travel, there are constant discussions on here about staff authorising passengers concerning delayed trains and I cannot see how this is any different.

If I go into a supermarket and provide a voucher off a packet of soap powder as part payment and the cashier accepts it then I cannot be prosecuted at a later date because it was out of date,

Similarly the op presented a voucher allowing discount off the price which was accepted, this should be honoured

 

[WesternLancer]

If a member of staff looks at the railcard and accepts it then in my mind he has given permission to travel, there are constant discussions on here about staff authorising passengers concerning delayed trains and I cannot see how this is any different.

If I go into a supermarket and provide a voucher off a packet of soap powder as part payment and the cashier accepts it then I cannot be prosecuted at a later date because it was out of date,

Similarly the op presented a voucher allowing discount off the price which was accepted, this should be honoured

V interesting analogy. Whilst I doubt the railway company would accept this there is a logic to it. Having seen the ticket and noting it was bought at the ticket office the inspector on the train, could in theory, have used such discretion perhaps, with a request that the OP buy a new railcard ASAP - but v unlikely to do that of course.

 

[AlterEgo]

If a member of staff looks at the railcard and accepts it then in my mind he has given permission to travel

Not at all. This is magical thinking, where a person with an invalid ticket who may pass 12 revenue staff between London and Glasgow is de facto innocent of any offence because a single person didn't spot it at the beginning of the journey.

If I go into a supermarket and provide a voucher off a packet of soap powder as part payment and the cashier accepts it then I cannot be prosecuted at a later date because it was out of date,

Because using the soap powder doesn't come on the same condition that you have to show the (invalid) voucher while using it. And, also, that there is not a law saying the very same. Wishing that the law says something is not the same as it being true or constituting helpful advice for the OP.

Similarly the op presented a voucher allowing discount off the price which was accepted, this should be honoured

The discount was honoured.

Unfortunately the OP fell foul of the proviso that it is entirely their responsibility to ensure they have a valid ticket and railcard.

 

[Hadders]

If a member of staff looks at the railcard and accepts it then in my mind he has given permission to travel, there are constant discussions on here about staff authorising passengers concerning delayed trains and I cannot see how this is any different.

If I go into a supermarket and provide a voucher off a packet of soap powder as part payment and the cashier accepts it then I cannot be prosecuted at a later date because it was out of date,

Similarly the op presented a voucher allowing discount off the price which was accepted, this should be honoured

Supermarket comparisons are not really valid but I can assure you that people who have presented and had invalid coupons accepted at supermarket tills have been arrested, prosecuted and convicted.

Getting back on track, if I show an invalid ticket at the Birmingham New Street gateline (deliberately chosen as they historically let anyone showing anything loosely resembling a railway ticket to pass through), does that give me permission to travel?

I doubt that would stand up.

 

[philthetube]

Supermarket comparisons are not really valid but I can assure you that people who have presented and had invalid coupons accepted at supermarket tills have been arrested, prosecuted and convicted.

Getting back on track, if I show an invalid ticket at the Birmingham New Street gateline (deliberately chosen as they historically let anyone showing anything loosely resembling a railway ticket to pass through), does that give me permission to travel?

I doubt that would stand up.

Only if deliberately fraudulently used, eg forgeries and not for an error with the date.

Your second point is actually an interesting one, I show my ticket, the barrier staff say ok, does that constitute permission? It is arguable.

 

[NorthWestRover]

It's not arguable. If you haven't got a valid ticket, it's on you. If you ask them if it's OK and they yes, that's slightly different, but just taking a passive ticket check as authority to travel with an invalid ticket is taking the mickey.

 

[philthetube]

If you go to a concert in error with next weeks ticket and are allowed in would you be prosecuted, if not, could you be. If no why not, yes I know that there are railway by laws but consumer law trumps them.

reasonableness of terms and conditions is written in the law.

 

[pedr]

Consumer law - and reasonableness - do not trump anything. The legal position (rather than the moral or ideal one) means there are major differences between the railway situation and the other analogies in this thread.

Parliament has permitted the railway companies and ministers to make certain laws and those make certain behaviour a crime even when that seems entirely unreasonable. It would be extremely difficult to argue that permission to cross a gate line or selling a ticket away from a train is permission to travel on a particular train without a valid ticket - even though it would be reasonable for some people to interpret it in that way.

I don’t think that’s a satisfactory way for the law to operate - and I think it’s poor when train companies use their rights in circumstances which are of dubious reasonableness - but that doesn’t change what those rights are.

Using a voucher or being let into an event in irregular circumstances isn’t a crime unless there is dishonesty, because of how the relevant laws have been created. Boarding a train without a valid ticket is, in the circumstances of this thread, a crime regardless of the passenger’s knowledge, belief, or intent.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you go to a concert in error with next weeks ticket and are allowed in would you be prosecuted, if not, could you be.

No.

If no why not

Because there are no criminal laws against going to a concert in error with a postdated ticket.

, yes I know that there are railway by laws but consumer law trumps them.

How do you imagine it does, in the OP’s case?

It’s a criminal offence to fail to hand over a valid ticket for inspection. “The man who sold me the ticket glanced at it and didn’t say anything” is not a defence. I don’t know how many times this needs to be spelled out.

 

[philthetube]

The man asked for and looked at my railcard, is it reasonable to assume that someone employed to do this knows what they are doing? If the answer to that question is yes then there is a case.

 

[NorthWestRover]

But it wasn't valid. It was way out of date. It's not some arcane rule that needed interpretation and you asked for clarification. You had a way out of date railcard and however many people checked it before you were caught is irrelevant.

 

[AlterEgo]

The man asked for and looked at my railcard, is it reasonable to assume that someone employed to do this knows what they are doing? If the answer to that question is yes then there is a case.

There is no case. You, and you alone, are responsible for ensuring you have a valid ticket and railcard. You and I might not like that, but that is the case, I’m afraid.

 

[Titfield]

The man asked for and looked at my railcard, is it reasonable to assume that someone employed to do this knows what they are doing? If the answer to that question is yes then there is a case.

You can not transfer the liability for ensuring that a valid ticket is held by the passenger away from the passenger to a third party.

 

[Haywain]

The man asked for and looked at my railcard, is it reasonable to assume that someone employed to do this knows what they are doing? If the answer to that question is yes then there is a case.

He made a mistake; he did not expressly give you permission to travel using an out of date railcard. And given that he only had a few seconds to check the expiry date, what’s your excuse?

 

[Aljanah]

You can not transfer the liability for ensuring that a valid ticket is held by the passenger away from the passenger to a third party.

An employee of a TOC is not a third party. They are (representing) one of the principals.

 

[philthetube]

I am pleased that someone gets where I am coming from, it would be interesting to know what others with knowledge of the law think, also Yorkie's views would be interesting.

Note to Mods, do you think this is worth a separate thread?

 

[AlterEgo]

I am pleased that someone gets where I am coming from, it would be interesting to know what others with knowledge of the law think, also Yorkie's views would be interesting.

Note to Mods, do you think this is worth a separate thread?

Everyone understands where you are coming from, and yet, a single member of staff passing a ticket in error does not constitute unlimited permission to travel and immunity from ensuring you have a valid ticket and railcard. There's really nowhere for the discussion to go.

 

[jon0844]

The fact of the matter is that the person selling the ticket shouldn't really need to check you have a railcard when buying the ticket, but merely ask if you have one or intend to get one by the time of travel if it's in the future.

It might even be worth them mentioning that you must bring it with you, and check it is in date. That's what a TVM would do, or if you ordered online. Then it's clear that the responsibility is yours.

 

[xdragonflyx]

Does anyone know how long the letter takes it's now been more than a month, I called them last week and they said I was still not on their prosecution list yet ? I thought the inspector would have sent it to the prosecution office by now?

It's frustrating cause now I can't travel because I don't know when this letter is coming

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Does anyone know how long the letter takes it's now been more than a month, I called them last week and they said I was still not on their prosecution list yet ? I thought the inspector would have sent it to the prosecution office by now?

It's frustrating cause now I can't travel because I don't know when this letter is coming

I know this won't be what you want to hear, but it could take up to six months for the railway to write to you. That's because six months is the length of time they have to take you to court - and if they can't take you to court then there's no point in them writing to you.

But there's no reason not to use the train while you're waiting for the letter - you know what you did wrong (travel without a valid railcard). So as long as you are careful to make sure that you've got the right ticket before you get on a train (and a valid railcard if the ticket needs one), you should be fine travelling. I know that this is a lot easier to say than to do - but try not to panic about railway travel.

 

[xdragonflyx]

I know this won't be what you want to hear, but it could take up to six months for the railway to write to you. That's because six months is the length of time they have to take you to court - and if they can't take you to court then there's no point in them writing to you.

But there's no reason not to use the train while you're waiting for the letter - you know what you did wrong (travel without a valid railcard). So as long as you are careful to make sure that you've got the right ticket before you get on a train (and a valid railcard if the ticket needs one), you should be fine travelling. I know that this is a lot easier to say than to do - but try not to panic about railway travel.

Thank you for your reply
the letter arrived today asking for my side of the story

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thank you for your reply
the letter arrived today asking for my side of the story

Are you able to upload a photo of the letter, obviously with your name and address details suitably obscured?