Urinals in train toilets - an idea ?

[yorksrob]

I know the idea has been raised in the past, but I've always been sceptical of the idea of urinals on trains without CET's as I've assumed that a fine mist of urine around the train's undercarriage would be worse for corrosion than a diluted splash of a flush toilet.

However, with CET's what's to stop us having a urinal available that drains via a ubend straight into the waste tank ?

It would surely save water due to there being less unnecessary flushing. There are even non-flush urinals that could be used to avoid unnecessary water use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That sounds like a great way to get wee all over the floor of the cubicle. Tipsy late-night Pacers home back in the day, demonstrate that sitting down is usually the best option!

 

[yorksrob]

That sounds like a great way to get wee all over the floor of the cubicle. Tipsy late-night Pacers home back in the day, demonstrate that sitting down is usually the best option!

News flash - wee tends to get all over the floor anyway, as far as I can see !

 

[lachlan]

Bit confused. What is a CET?

Is there a shortage of water on trains? I can't remember ever having a toilet fail to flush. And you can already use a train toilet as a urinal anyway (ie, standing up)

 

[hexagon789]

I know the idea has been raised in the past, but I've always been sceptical of the idea of urinals on trains without CET's as I've assumed that a fine mist of urine around the train's undercarriage would be worse for corrosion than a diluted splash of a flush toilet.

However, with CET's what's to stop us having a urinal available that drains via a ubend straight into the waste tank ?

It would surely save water due to there being less unnecessary flushing. There are even non-flush urinals that could be used to avoid unnecessary water use.

Is this in addition to or instead of a standard toilet fitting in the WC compartments?

 

[yorksrob]

Bit confused. What is a CET?

Is there a shortage of water on trains? I can't remember ever having a toilet fail to flush. And you can already use a train toilet as a urinal anyway (ie, standing up)

Controlled emission toilet (i.e. doesn't flush onto the track).

 

[Gloster]

You will take up more space by having two units in the toilet compartment, only one of which will be in use. There is also the risk of falling without an extra handrail, which will also get in the way.

 

[yorksrob]

Is this in addition to or instead of a standard toilet fitting in the WC compartments?

Would be in addition, or in a small separate cubicle.

 

[Gloster]

Would be in addition, or in a small separate cubicle.

Which would also have to have its own washbasin, hand-dryer, bin, etc. It is all more space being used up.

 

[yorksrob]

You will take up more space by having two units in the toilet compartment, only one of which will be in use. There is also the risk of falling without an extra handrail, which will also get in the way.

If you had a more compact separate cubicle, the main loo would still be available to anyone who felt they were likely to fall.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

Which would also have to have its own washbasin, hand-dryer, bin, etc. It is all more space being used up.

Well, we had two toilets on the 158's.

 

[lachlan]

Controlled emission toilet (i.e. doesn't flush onto the track).

Ah okay, thanks.

If it were possible to have the toilet drain, rather than requiring it to be flushed, that would effectively be what you're proposing. This could save water.

If you had a more compact separate cubicle, the main loo would still be available to anyone who felt they were likely to fall.

Am all for more train toilets. But the existing (non disabled) ones are already tiny, I doubt a urinal would shrink them down any further.

 

[hexagon789]

Would be in addition, or in a small separate cubicle.

I don't think you'd fit them in most train toilet compartments tbh, and I don't think separately would work in space terms - having toilets that can only be readily used by 49% of the population at best and probably a bit less wheh you factor in various medical conditions.

I know they do have them on some Shinkansen trains in Japan, but its a different sort of culture in it being more acceptable to have certain features more accomdating to men. After all, the original premise of the Shinkansen was that only businessmen would use them!

 

[yorksrob]

Ah okay, thanks.

If it were possible to have the toilet drain, rather than requiring it to be flushed, that would effectively be what you're proposing. This could save water.

Am all for more train toilets. But the existing (non disabled) ones are already tiny, I doubt a urinal would shrink them down any further.

The space of the cubicle isn't the problem, it's space in the toilet tank that I'm trying to conserve.

 

[lachlan]

Am curious, have you ever come across a toilet that didn't work because no water, or the tank was full? It hasn't happened to me yet thankfully...

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think you'd fit them in most train toilet compartments tbh, and I don't think separately would work in space terms - having toilets that can only be readily used by 49% of the population at best and probably a bit less wheh you factor in various medical conditions.

I know they do have them on some Shinkansen trains in Japan, but its a different sort of culture in it being more acceptable to have certain features more accomdating to men. After all, the original premise of the Shinkansen was that only businessmen would use them!

We already have the protocol that you can have lots of non-accessible toilets on the train as long as one is accessible. Is this really any different ? Plus if the blokes have their own cubicle for number 1's, the main water closet will likely be in a better condition for those who need it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Apr 2022 ==

Am curious, have you ever come across a toilet that didn't work because no water, or the tank was full? It hasn't happened to me yet thankfully...

Every Friday/Saturday evening for starters. I'm on a train with one now

 

[lachlan]

We already have the protocol that you can have lots of non-accessible toilets on the train as long as one is accessible. Is this really any different ? Plus if the blokes have their own cubicle for number 1's, the main water closet will likely be in a better condition for those who need it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Apr 2022 ==



Every Friday/Saturday evening for starters. I'm on a train with one now

You could increase the number of toilets by having a row of urinals in a space the width of the disabled toilet. If we did install urinals on trains this feels like the way to go rather than individual cubicles.

 

[Wolfie]

I know the idea has been raised in the past, but I've always been sceptical of the idea of urinals on trains without CET's as I've assumed that a fine mist of urine around the train's undercarriage would be worse for corrosion than a diluted splash of a flush toilet.

However, with CET's what's to stop us having a urinal available that drains via a ubend straight into the waste tank ?

It would surely save water due to there being less unnecessary flushing. There are even non-flush urinals that could be used to avoid unnecessary water use.

The VC10 had a urinal in the rear toilet. You might wish to Google to see the amount of resultant corrosion damage.....

 

[yorksrob]

The VC10 had a urinal in the rear toilet. You might wish to Google to see the amount of resultant corrosion damage.....

What's a VC10?

 

[Lewlew]

Am curious, have you ever come across a toilet that didn't work because no water, or the tank was full? It hasn't happened to me yet thankfully...

Allll the time on the 350s. Late night, middle of the day, early morning, anytime!

Always check the tap before using the bog.

 

[Gloster]

What's a VC10?

One of the last bits of British engineering that other countries were impressed by, even if it was a failure. It looked good, though.

 

[hexagon789]

We already have the protocol that you can have lots of non-accessible toilets on the train as long as one is accessible. Is this really any different ? Plus if the blokes have their own cubicle for number 1's, the main water closet will likely be in a better condition for those who need it.

Let's say you have the arrangement as per the 80x class intermediate cars with toilets. You have two toilets across the aisle from each other - operators have a choice, fit out both as standard with toilets bowls or fit one with a toilet bowl and the other with a urinal, which option are they likely to go for?

 

[43066]

The VC10 had a urinal in the rear toilet. You might wish to Google to see the amount of resultant corrosion damage.....

Was that actually a thing? Google doesn’t suggest so. Would human urine really be so corrosive to aluminium as to cause that? How did HST mark 3s survive for as long as they did with urine being discharged over them? Does steel have better urine repelling special skills than aluminium?

You certainly have to question what we’re all going on here, on a Friday night, debating the finer points of urinals on trains and aircraft, and the impact of urine on metal…

In fact, it’s almost certainly a parody thread. In which case I’ve been had too…

Good work @yorksrob. I’ve also never seen Bromley South P2 look as Northern and Yorkshireish as it does in your avatar.

I love this forum at times .

 

[yorksrob]

Let's say you have the arrangement as per the 80x class intermediate cars with toilets. You have two toilets across the aisle from each other - operators have a choice, fit out both as standard with toilets bowls or fit one with a toilet bowl and the other with a urinal, which option are they likely to go for?

But can they fit twice the tank space, otherwise it's pointless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Apr 2022 ==

Was that actually a thing? Google doesn’t suggest so. Would human urine really be so corrosive to aluminium as to cause that? How did HST mark 3s survive for as long as they did with urine being discharged over them? Does steel have better urine repelling special skills than aluminium?

You certainly have to question what we’re all going on here, on a Friday night, debating the finer points of urinals on trains and aircraft, and the impact of urine on metal…

In fact, it’s almost certainly a parody thread. In which case I’ve been had too…

Good work @yorksrob. I’ve also never seen Bromley South P2 look as Northern and Yorkshireish as it does in your avatar.

I love this forum at times .

It's a genuine thread - albeit borne of desperation.

BTW it's Grove Park

 

[Killingworth]

Am curious, have you ever come across a toilet that didn't work because no water, or the tank was full? It hasn't happened to me yet thankfully...

I avoid train toilets but observation of how frequently they're out of use in the evening suggests this is a significant issue. In earlier days they'd just be disgusting.

 

[Gloster]

I am not sure about urine, but cleaning fluid can be corrosive. This was the probable cause of the crash of BEA Flight 706 in 1971 in Belgium following explosive decompression.

 

[randyrippley]

One of the last bits of British engineering that other countries were impressed by, even if it was a failure. It looked good, though.

It may have been a commercial failure, but technically it was outstanding

 

[Magdalia]

This is a discussion that could only happen with men, and probably then only on Friday or Saturday night.

It takes no account of the needs of women, or transgender and non binary people.

Trains are actually one of the few public places where toilet provision is gender neutral. The direction of travel should be to have more public places with genuine gender neutral toilet provision, not to introduce binary toilet provision onto trains.

Urinals are designed to allow lots of men to urinate at the same time and are appropriate in venues such as sports stadia, concert halls and large pubs. They were appropriate at railway stations in the days when on train toilet provision was poor or non-existent, but that does not apply now, except maybe at big terminal stations.

Binary toilet provision is inherently discriminatory. Just look at the number of times a queue forms outside a ladies' toilet compared to the number of times a queue forms outside a gents' toilet. The OP later said that the thread was borne out of desperation, so basically this is about queue jumping.

 

[yorksrob]

This is a discussion that could only happen with men, and probably then only on Friday or Saturday night.

It takes no account of the needs of women, or transgender and non binary people.

Trains are actually one of the few public places where toilet provision is gender neutral. The direction of travel should be to have more public places with genuine gender neutral toilet provision, not to introduce binary toilet provision onto trains.

Urinals are designed to allow lots of men to urinate at the same time and are appropriate in venues such as sports stadia, concert halls and large pubs. They were appropriate at railway stations in the days when on train toilet provision was poor or non-existent, but that does not apply now, except maybe at big terminal stations.

Binary toilet provision is inherently discriminatory. Just look at the number of times a queue forms outside a ladies' toilet compared to the number of times a queue forms outside a gents' toilet. The OP later said that the thread was borne out of desperation, so basically this is about queue jumping.

I see your point but....

Trains have a specific technical issue in that whatever goes into the toilet has to be stored and there is limited space to do that.

Urinals (and you can get individual ones as well nowadays) are the only way I can think of to have the same number of people using the toilet, while significantly reducing water use through less flushing, thereby creating more storage capacity to allow more people to use it.

An alternative would be to have two toilets, but without twice the tank capacity, you end up with the same problem.

Ultimately it's in no one's interest to have no working toilets in a captive environment.

 

[Lucan]

This is a discussion that could only happen with men, ... It takes no account of the needs of women, or transgender and non binary people.

How ridiculous.

 

[Magdalia]

I see your point but....

Trains have a specific technical issue in that whatever goes into the toilet has to be stored and there is limited space to do that.

Ultimately it's in no one's interest to have no working toilets in a captive environment.

I agree, but that's mostly about good design so that the water and emission tanks are of suitable size.

It is also about good planning for replenishing water tanks and emptying emission tanks.