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The ethics of the USA dropping nuclear weapons on Japan in 1945.

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najaB

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mods note - split from here.

I'm not convinced that it would even have the effect of convincing the Ukrainians to surrender. It worked against Japan because they were on the back foot: the Allies were going to win either way - be it by a massive conventional invasion or atomic destruction.
 
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dgl

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And I'm not convinced that it would even have the effect of convincing the Ukrainians to surrender. It worked against Japan because they were on the back foot: the Allies were going to win either way - be it by a massive conventional invasion or atomic destruction.
Also at the time only the Allies had nuclear weapons (well they technically only had two!), so Japan couldn't retaliate in any meaningful way.
 

nw1

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Also at the time only the Allies had nuclear weapons (well they technically only had two!), so Japan couldn't retaliate in any meaningful way.

What I fail to understand is how the US considered it even remotely ethical to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. (But that's really something for another thread).
 

Bletchleyite

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What I fail to understand is how the US considered it even remotely ethical to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. (But that's really something for another thread).

While Russia is presently in the spotlight, the US is not known in its history for ethics in war either. OK, their soldiers tend not to go around raping and murdering civilians which is a particularly high level of evil, but they have done some pretty bad and definitely unethical stuff over the years.
 

Scotrail314209

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While Russia is presently in the spotlight, the US is not known in its history for ethics in war either. OK, their soldiers tend not to go around raping and murdering civilians which is a particularly high level of evil, but they have done some pretty bad and definitely unethical stuff over the years.
The same can be said for Britain to a certain extent too.
 

nw1

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While Russia is presently in the spotlight, the US is not known in its history for ethics in war either. OK, their soldiers tend not to go around raping and murdering civilians which is a particularly high level of evil, but they have done some pretty bad and definitely unethical stuff over the years.

Indeed. Though I had an argument about this in the nineties with someone (British, female, not ex-military) perhaps 40-50 years older than me and was labelled a communist for daring to suggest that the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were perhaps not nice things to do.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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the US is not known in its history for ethics in war either. OK, their soldiers tend not to go around raping and murdering civilians which is a particularly high level of evil, but they have done some pretty bad and definitely unethical stuff over the years.
I am certainly old enough to remember the My Lai massacre in 1968.
 

SJL2020

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What I fail to understand is how the US considered it even remotely ethical to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. (But that's really something for another thread).
Maybe useful to do some research on the Battle of Okinawa.
 

uglymonkey

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And Operation Olympus and Coronel (sp?) They minted 450,000 Purple Hearts to give out to GI's during the possible invasion of Japan. They are still issuing this stock today to give to "current" recipients.
 

Gloster

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My father, as an engineer, fully understood the horrors of a nuclear explosion, but was also grateful for it. He would have been one of those who would have had to fight the Japanese in any land campaign. He had no illusions as to how horrible that would have been as his brother spent several years fighting through Burma with the Bombay Sappers & Miners. I think it is the politicians who were and are, as usual, divorced from the horrors on the ground.
 

Cowley

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I think to some extent with the Red Army already in Manchuria and looking to push into Japan in 1945, the dropping of the bombs was partly intended for the audience in Moscow wasn’t it?
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think any conventional battle justifies the use of nuclear weapons.

Agreed. I think we need to consider the evils of nuclear weapons in terms of the effect on civilians and the long-term effects of making land unusable over and above a large number of military deaths, particularly in the context of conscript armies being much less of a thing these days, so those who have chosen to enlist have accepted the risk of death in battle.

I suppose, to be fair, there's not a lot more left of Mariupol now from conventional shelling than there would have been from a small nuke, but at least some civilians had a chance to get out rather than face a fearsome death.
 

uglymonkey

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B29 Superfortresses were leveling Japanese cities daily prior to the dropping of the bomb. A firestorm in Toyko after a raid claimed over 100,000 lives. The Nuclear bombs didn't neccesarily cause many more deaths than the conventional leveling of the cities, but it stopped the war, preventing millions of lives lost ( on both sides) in a conventional invasion (planned for 1946), as ( using Okinawa as evidence) they would have fought for every inch of their homeland.

Total War is not pretty.
 

SJL2020

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I don't think any conventional battle justifies the use of nuclear weapons.
Ok, I'll try and be more clear. Based on the experience of Okinawa, the cost of a full blown invasion would have been in the order of 0.5m to 1.0 million allied casualties.

Japanese deaths - soldiers and civilians - would have been in the millions.

Dropping the bombs saved millions of lives, most of which were Japanese.

The alternative to a full blown invasion BTW was The Starvation Plan. Of course, that also would have saved Allied soldiers deaths in combat, but it would have meant that Allied POWs would have had more time to die from disease, over-work, starvation and other forms of ill-treatment. And, of course, many Japanese would still have died a horrible lingering death from starvation.

The opportunity to minimise human suffering is clearly an ethical consideration, so I conclude that the decision to drop the bombs was the right decision ethically.
 

nw1

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Ok, I'll try and be more clear. Based on the experience of Okinawa, the cost of a full blown invasion would have been in the order of 0.5m to 1.0 million allied casualties.

Japanese deaths - soldiers and civilians - would have been in the millions.

Dropping the bombs saved millions of lives, most of which were Japanese.

The alternative to a full blown invasion BTW was The Starvation Plan. Of course, that also would have saved Allied soldiers deaths in combat, but it would have meant that Allied POWs would have had more time to die from disease, over-work, starvation and other forms of ill-treatment. And, of course, many Japanese would still have died a horrible lingering death from starvation.

The opportunity to minimise human suffering is clearly an ethical consideration, so I conclude that the decision to drop the bombs was the right decision ethically.

Would it not have been better in that case for the Allies and Japan to come to some sort of agreement and stop the war?

But even if not, I think that nuclear is so terrible that it should never, ever be used. It kills and gives serious long term illnesses to civilians who are not even involved in the fighting, not to mention contaminating the ground for generations. My position is simply that nuclear war is the greatest evil in terms of its effects and the precedent it sets, with only biological war (with lethal agents) comparable. Furthermore it allows nasty regimes, such as that of the Soviet Union, to use the excuse "well you used them, why can't we?"

As soon as the possibility of nuclear weapons was mooted, presumably by nuclear scientists, the discoverers really should have kept their mouths shut.
 
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Ted633

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Would it not have been better in that case for the Allies and Japan to come to some sort of agreement and stop the war?
That would of been the best solution, however the Allies (rightly or wrongly) would only accept unconditional surrender. The atom bombs forced Japan to make that declaration.

However bad it sounds, the bombs were the best of an utterly horrendous situation. The death toll would of been immense for both sides in the event of a land invasion. Even more cities and towns would of been destroyed. Japanese civilians were even being trained in hand to hand combat to assist in the fight and due to honour, surrender wasn't an option for many Japanese troops.

I can strongly advise (you may already have) reading up on the Pacific campaign of island hopping, especially Okinawa.
 

nw1

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That would of been the best solution, however the Allies (rightly or wrongly) would only accept unconditional surrender. The atom bombs forced Japan to make that declaration.
So isn't that the fault of the Allies in that case? The Allies' refusal to accept anything other than surrender leading to the bombs being dropped doesn't look good to me.
 

ainsworth74

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In terms of alternatives to using nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki I would recommended this blog post by Alex Wellerstein:

Were there alternatives to the atomic bombings?​

by Alex Wellerstein, published August 3rd, 2015
...

What options were there for the United States regarding the atomic bomb in 1945?

Few historical events have been simultaneously second-guessed and vigorously defended as the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which occurred seventy years ago this August. To question the bombings, one must assume an implicit alternative history is possible. Those who defend the bombings always invoke the alternative of a full-scale invasion of the Japanese homeland, Operation Downfall, which would have undoubtedly caused many American and Japanese casualties. The numbers are debatable, but estimates range from the hundreds of thousands to the millions — an unpalatable option, to be sure.

But is this stark alternative the only one? That is, are the only two possible historical options available a bloody invasion of the Japanese home islands, or the dropping of two nuclear weapons on mostly-civilian cities within three days of one another, on the specific days that they were dropped? Well, not exactly. We cannot replay the past as if it were a computer simulation, and to impose present-day visions of alternatives on the past does little good. But part of the job of being a historian is to understand the variables that were in the air at the time — the choices, decisions, and serendipity that add up to what we call “historical contingency,” the places where history could have gone a different direction. To contemplate contingency is not necessarily to criticize the past, but it does seek to remove some of the “set in stone” quality of the stories we often tell about the bomb.

...


As soon as the possibility of nuclear weapons was mooted, presumably by nuclear scientists, the discoverers really should have kept their mouths shut.
The reason they didn't was they were concerned, as it turned out needlessly, that Nazi Germany would get there first. That was why a few physicists of the time wrote a letter, signed by Einstein, to Roosevelt in 1939 warning of such a thing and advocating that US should work on the technology themselves.

To be honest I think it's hard to imagine a world where we didn't eventually create the technology. It is after all quite simple once you've got the basic concepts down. The hard part is creating the fissile materials. Modern weapons are extremely complex and hard to produce (for various reasons to do with getting high yields, safety features, miniaturisation and similar) but if you've got enough enriched uranium you can make a functional nuclear weapon by simply firing one lump of uranium at another with sufficient velocity to cause a critical reaction (this is the type of weapon used on Hiroshima). In order for us to have a world where nuclear weapons don't exist we'd need to go back in time and not discover radioactivity or atoms.
 

Master Cutler

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During the dark days of WW2 it was only a matter of time before a nuclear device was developed by any number of countries. USA had the benefit of vast amounts of cash plus scientists from defeated Germany to call on to get them into first place.
Ironically much of the development was going on here in the U.K. so we were part of the ethics of A bomb deployment.

In 1939, the government purchased a 35 hectares area of the Alyn Valley to be developed as a chemical weapons factory and storage facility, named M.S. Factory, Valley. Over 100 specialized buildings were eventually constructed across the site, which grew to cover 86 hectares and employ 2,000 workers. The facility was cloaked in secrecy, so much so that the early development of the UK’s atomic bomb project took place here and it did not appear on any Luftwaffe bombing maps.
 

Snow1964

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That would of been the best solution, however the Allies (rightly or wrongly) would only accept unconditional surrender. The atom bombs forced Japan to make that declaration.

However bad it sounds, the bombs were the best of an utterly horrendous situation. The death toll would of been immense for both sides in the event of a land invasion. Even more cities and towns would of been destroyed. Japanese civilians were even being trained in hand to hand combat to assist in the fight and due to honour, surrender wasn't an option for many Japanese troops.

I can strongly advise (you may already have) reading up on the Pacific campaign of island hopping, especially Okinawa.

You have to remember the Japanese were being brutal, they had killed over quarter of million Chinese civilians, and tens of thousands of others, often in quite inhuman ways, in countries they had invaded.

They also had plans to conquer the Pacific and invade west coast of America, and probably would have done so had the Americans not intercepted some messages and been lucky to gamble on the Japanese carriers being at Battle of Midway (which saw thousands of lives lost on both sides).

I suggest anyone who thinks it was wrong to drop the 2 bombs, reads up on battles of Midway and Okinawa, and Japanese treatment of captives. War needed to be stopped, and without the shock factor could have been hundreds of thousands more lives lost if war had continued for another year or two.

Japan had ignored the call for total surrender in the Potsdam declaration in July, and the atomic bombs were seen as a way to avoid a land war in Japan. Nagasaki was unlucky, the target of second bomb was Kokura (but it was cloudy so there was last minute switch of destination).

The Americans also avoided firebombing the 4 chosen Japanese cities for months before, so any destruction would be obvious to help persuade Japanese to surrender. Thus the bombs were part of a strategy for ending the war if they were required.
 

GS250

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Would it not have been better in that case for the Allies and Japan to come to some sort of agreement and stop the war?

But even if not, I think that nuclear is so terrible that it should never, ever be used. It kills and gives serious long term illnesses to civilians who are not even involved in the fighting, not to mention contaminating the ground for generations. My position is simply that nuclear war is the greatest evil in terms of its effects and the precedent it sets, with only biological war (with lethal agents) comparable. Furthermore it allows nasty regimes, such as that of the Soviet Union, to use the excuse "well you used them, why can't we?"

As soon as the possibility of nuclear weapons was mooted, presumably by nuclear scientists, the discoverers really should have kept their mouths shut.

Yep. Two relatively low yield airburst explosions over didn't have a catastrophic effect on the greater environment. Hundreds of higher yields though, especially the ground bursts would pretty much put the planet into a several decade virtual extinction.
 

Spartacus

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I think to some extent with the Red Army already in Manchuria and looking to push into Japan in 1945, the dropping of the bombs was partly intended for the audience in Moscow wasn’t it?

Certainly, and in more ways that one. As well as the usual, and legitimate, arguments about casualties on both sides caused by an invasion of Japan we now know that Churchill and the Chiefs Of Staff were planning for a possible 'Operation Unthinkable', war with Russia, as early as May 1945. The general view was that things would end badly for the allies, whether offensively or defensively, especially with so many forces planned to move to the Far East for an invasion of Japan, which could encourage a Soviet attack on Western Europe; they'd already reneged on the Yalta agreements so it was a reasonable assumption. Dropping the bombs led to that flow of forces east being instantly reduced, strengthening the western allies' position in Europe, and sending two big loud messages to Russia. Operation Unthinkable was only declassified in 1998, by which point the cold war was over, so then took at least another decade for it to be really looked at. It's one of those things that couldn't be admitted to have been an influence on the decision to go nuclear on Japan, but knowing about it it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't have been a major influence.

I think in the long term they probably prevented the Cold War ever getting more than lukewarm; everyone in a high position knew all too well, and many had viewed first hand, the real effects of the dropping of atomic bombs, not just from old pictures, tests and theories, and I reckon it made them all that more reluctant to use the new, far more destructive, ones they now had in anger. You can only fear something so much if you've never seen it for yourself, and them really being dropped meant people HAD seen it, and really feared the consequences of using them.
 
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DarloRich

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What I fail to understand is how the US considered it even remotely ethical to drop nuclear bombs on Japan. (But that's really something for another thread).

Becuase on the back of, especially, the battle for Okinawa the US expected 1m+ casualties during and after the invasion of the Japenese home islands and saw the aromic bomb of a way of avoiding them.

The Japenese were finished but were still going to fight to the death. It took two atomic bombs to persuade them the game was up.

I think to some extent with the Red Army already in Manchuria and looking to push into Japan in 1945, the dropping of the bombs was partly intended for the audience in Moscow wasn’t it?
That is certainly offered as a reason but from what i can read only a secondary one. The USA saw the bomb as way of ending the war with fewer allied deaths than invasion.

Stalin, of couree, knew all about the atomic programme. The USA didnt know he knew mind.
 

ainsworth74

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There's another piece by Wellerstein on his blog that I think is worth reading on this subject (couldn't lay my hands on it earlier, someone showed up and insisted I actually do the day job rather than take advantage of a lull. Very rude I thought :lol:):

What journalists should know about the atomic bombings​

by Alex Wellerstein, published June 9th, 2020
As we approach the 75th anniversary of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even with everything else going on this year, we’re certainly going to see an up-tick in atomic bomb-related historical content in the news. As arbitrary as 5/10 year anniversaries are, they can be a useful opportunity to reengage the public on historical topics, and the atomic bombs are, I think, pretty important historical topics: not just because they are interesting and influential to what came later, but because Americans in particular use the atomic bombings as a short-hand for thinking about vitally important present-day issues like the ends justifying the means, who the appropriate targets of war are, and the use of force in general. Unfortunately, quite a lot of what Americans think they know about the atomic bombs is dramatically out of alignment with how historians understand them, and this shapes their takes on these present-day issues as well.

...

There was no “decision to use bomb”​

The biggest and most important thing that one ought to know is that there was no “decision to use the atomic bomb” in the sense that the phrase implies. Truman did not weigh the advantages and disadvantages of using the atomic bomb, nor did he see it as a choice between invasion or bombing. This particular “decision” narrative, in which Truman unilaterally decides that the bombing was the lesser of two evils, is a postwar fabrication, developed by the people who used the atomic bomb (notably General Groves and Secretary of War Stimson, but encouraged by Truman himself later) as a way of rationalizing and justifying the bombings in the face of growing unease and criticism about them.

What did happen was far more complicated, multifaceted, and at times chaotic — like most real history. The idea that the bomb would be used was assumed by nearly everyone who was involved in its production at a high level, which did not include Truman (who was excluded until after Roosevelt’s death). There were a few voices against its use, but there were far more people who assumed that it was built to be used. There were many reasons why people wanted it to be used, including ending the war as soon as possible, and very few reasons not to use it. Saving Japanese lives was just not a goal — it was never an elaborate moral calculus of that sort. Rather than one big “decision,” the atomic bombings were the product of a multitude of many smaller decisions and assumptions that stretched back into late 1942, when the Manhattan Project really got started.

This is not to say there were not decisions made along the line. There were lots of decisions made, about the type of bomb being built, the kind of fuzing used for it (which determines what kinds of targets it would be ideal against), the types of targets… Truman wasn’t part of these. His role was extremely peripheral to the entire endeavor. As General Groves put it, Truman’s role was “one of noninterference—basically, a decision not to upset the existing plans.”

Truman was involved in only two major issues relating to the atomic bomb decision-making during World War II. These were concurring with Stimson’s recommendations about the non-bombing of Kyoto (and the bombing of Hiroshima instead), which I have written about (and now published about) at some length. The other is the (not-unrelated, I argue) decision on August 10, 1945, to halt further atomic bombings (at least temporarily) because, as he put it to his cabinet meeting, “the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible. He didn’t like the idea of killing, as he said, ‘all those kids.’”

It was never a question of “bomb or invade”​

Part of the “decision” narrative above is the idea that there were only two choices: use the atomic bombs, or have a bloody land-invasion of Japan. This is another one of those clever rhetorical traps created in the postwar to justify the atomic bombings, and if you accept its framing then you will have a hard time concluding that the atomic bombings were a good idea or not. And maybe that’s how you feel about the bombings — it’s certainly a position one can take — but let’s be clear: this framing is not how the planners at the time saw the issue.

The plan was to bomb and to invade, and to have the Soviet invade, and to blockade, and so on. It was an “everything and the kitchen sink” approach to ending the war with Japan, though there were a few things missing from the “everything,” like modifying the unconditional surrender requirements that the Americans knew (through intercepted communications) were causing the Japanese considerable difficulty in accepting surrender. I’ve written about the possible alternatives to the atomic bombings before, so I won’t go into them in any detail, but I think it’s important to recognize that the way the bombings were done (two atomic bombs on two cities within three days of each other) was not according to some grand plan at all, but because of choices, some very “small scale” (local personnel working on Tinian, with no consultation with the President or cabinet members at all), made by people who could not predict the future.

While we are on the subject, we should note that many of the casualty estimates on the invasion have become grossly inflated after the war ended. The estimates that the generals accepted at the time, and related to Truman, were that there would be on the order of tens of thousands of American casualties from a full invasion (and casualties include the injured, not just the dead). That’s nothing to scoff at, but it’s not the hundreds of thousands to even millions of deaths that have sometimes been invoked. Be wary of this kind of counterfactual casualty estimation, especially when it is done in the service of a conclusion that is already agreed upon. It’s easy to imagine the worst-case scenarios that didn’t happen, and to use these to justify the awful things that did happen. This is bad reasoning, and a bad approach to moral thinking — it is a particularly insidious form of “ends justify the means” reasoning which can justify damned near anything in the name of imaginative alternatives.

All that being said, I want to just say that I’m not necessarily saying that other alternatives should have been pursued. That’s not really a position I feel comfortable staking out, only because I can’t predict what would have happened if they had done other things as well. One can easily imagine the Japanese deciding to keep fighting even in spite of everything, just compounding the death and leading into a pretty grim postwar world. Frankly, when one looks at the chaotic Japanese decision-making that went into their actual surrender (more on that in a minute) it is actually quite clear that they only barely surrendered when they did. So I would not want to say, “they should have done it another way” with any confidence. But I do think it is important to point out that none of it was inevitable, and that some of the justifications for why they did it are quite overstated.

Separately, it is worth pointing out, because this is often obscured, that the invasion of Kyushu was not scheduled to begin until November 1945. There are many framings of this that make it look like the invasion was about to start immediately after the atomic bombings, and this just isn’t the case. The invasion of Honshu had not yet been authorized, but would not have begun until early 1946. This doesn’t change whether they would be awful or anything like that, but the tightening of the timeline, to make it seem like both were imminent, is part of the rhetorical strategy to justify using the atomic bombs.

There were many reasons that the Americans wanted to drop the atomic bombs​

There are two main explanations given to why the Americans dropped the atomic bombs. One is the “decision to use the bomb” narrative already outlined (end the war to avoid an invasion). The other, which is common in more left-leaning, anti-bombing historical studies, is that they did it to scare the Soviet Union (to show they had a new weapon). This latter position is sometimes called the Alperovitz thesis, because Gar Alperovitz did a lot of work to popularize and defend it in the 1980s and 1990s.4 It’s older than that, for whatever that is worth.

When I talk to students about the atomic bombings, I usually have them tell me what they know of them. Maybe 80% know the “decision to use the bomb” narrative (we could probably call this the Stimson narrative if we wanted to be consistent).6 I chart this out on the whiteboard, highlighting the key facts of it. A few in each class know the Alperovitz narrative, which they got from various alternative sources (like Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick’s The Untold History of the United States documentary). We then discuss the implications of each — what does believing in either make you feel about World War II, the atomic bombings, about the United States as a world power today?

And then I tell them that historians today tend to reject both of these narratives. Which makes them want to throw their hands up in frustration, I am sure, but that’s what scholarship is about.

I’ve written a bit on this in the past, but the short version is that historians have found that both of these narratives are far too clean and neat: they both assume that the nation had a single driving purpose in using the atomic bombs. This isn’t the case. (And, spoiler alert, it’s almost never the case.) As already noted, the process had many different parts to it, and no single “decision” at all, and so one can find historical figures who had many different perspectives. What is interesting is that for those involved in the making of the bomb, and the highest-level decisions about its use, almost all of those perspectives converged on the idea of using it.

So there certainly were people who hoped it would end the war quickly to avoid invasion. There were also those who hoped it would end the war before the Soviets declared war on the Japanese, giving the US a freer hand in Asia in the postwar period. (More on that in a moment.) There were also those who considered it “just another weapon” and attached no special significance to its use. And there were those who took the entirely opposite approach, seeing it as a herald of a future nuclear arms race, and who believed that the best first use of the bomb ought to be the one that laid bare its horrible spectacle. (Personally, I find this position the most historically and intellectually interesting — the idea that by using the bombs on cities in World War II, you’d prevent nuclear weapons from being ever used in anger again.)

And there were those who thought that one of the “bonuses” of using the bomb was to scare the Soviets. It’s not just a “revisionist” (a term I hate) idea — one can document it pretty easily (and Alperovitz does). This strain of thinking was particularly prominent in the thinking of Secretary of State James Byrnes, whose advocacy of “atomic diplomacy” against the Soviets was explicit. It’s not a goofy idea. The question is whether it is the whole story — and it’s not.

Where both the Stimson and Alperovitz narratives fail is that they insist that there were only singular reasons to use the atomic bomb. But there were many people involved with it, and thus many different motivations. That’s not a problem if you want to argue for or against the atomic bombings — but implying it is just one or the other is a misrepresentation of this history, and also of how people generally operate. People are complicated.

It isn’t clear the atomic bombs ended World War II​

My least favorite way in which the end of World War II is discussed goes along these lines: “The atomic bombs ended World War II.” My second-least favorite way is a weaker variant that is becoming more common: “A few days after the atomic bombs were dropped, the Japanese surrendered.” Note the latter doesn’t really say the bombs did it… but implies it very strongly.

Scholars have known for a long time that the end of World War II was an immensely complicated event. Several events happened within the space of a few days, including:

  • The bombing of the city of Hiroshima
  • The Soviet declaration of war against the Japanese, and subsequent invasion of Manchuria
  • The bombing of the city of Nagasaki
  • Internal friction within the Japanese high command
  • An attempted coup by junior military officers
  • An offer of surrender that still maintained the status of the Emperor
  • A rejection of this offer by the Americans
  • An increase of American conventional bombing
  • An acceptance of unconditional surrendered by the Emperor himself

If I tried to write out all of the events that the above encapsulate, this post would get very long indeed. The point I want to make, though, is that it isn’t some simple matter of “atomic bombs = unconditional surrender.” Even with two atomic bombs and the Soviet invasion, the Japanese high command still didn’t offer unconditional surrender! It was a very close thing all around, and it strikes me as impossible to totally disentangle all of the causes of their surrender.

I think it is fair to say that the atomic bombs played a role in the Japanese surrender. It is clear they were one of the issues on their mind, both those in the military who wanted the country to resist invasion as bloodily as possible (with the hope of making the Allies accept more favorable terms for Japan), and those who wanted a diplomatic end of the war (though even those did not imagine accepting unconditional surrender — they wanted to preserve the imperial house).

It is also clear that the Soviet declaration of war and subsequent invasion of Manchuria loomed largely in all of their minds as well. Which is more important? Could we imagine the same results occurring if one hadn’t occurred? I don’t know. It’s complicated. It’s messy. Like the real world.9

There are some who believe the war could have been ended without the atomic bombings (especially the bombing of Nagasaki, which does not appear to have changed things in the minds of the Japanese high command). I’ve never been totally convinced of their arguments; they strike me as a bit overly optimistic. But I think it is also clear that the Soviet role deserves far more attention than it typically gets in American versions of this story; it is easy to document its impact. And then again, one can ask how much would have been changed if the unconditional surrender requirement had been modified earlier on, like some American advisors had urged. The tricky thing about history, though, is you can’t just rewind it, change a few variables, and run it forward again. So it’s hard to have any confidence about such predictions.

Still, it’s worth noting that the relationship between the atomic bombs and the Japanese surrender is a complicated one. In the US, claiming the atomic bombs ended the war has historically been a way of writing the Soviets out of the picture, as well as making the case for the use of the bombs stronger. I think both of these make for bad history.

The bombings were controversial in their time
While the majority of Americans supported the atomic bombings at the time — they were, after all, told they had ended World War II, saved huge numbers of lives, and so on — it is worth just noting that approval was not universal, and that people questioning whether they had to be used, or whether they had ended World War II, were not fringe. Some of the most critical voices about the atomic bombings came from military figures who, for a variety of reasons, would come out against the bombings in the years afterwards. The US Strategic Bombing Survey, a military-led assessment of bombing effectiveness in World War II, concluded in July 1946 that:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no [American] invasion had been planned or contemplated.10

Which is a pretty shocking statement to read! I’m not saying you have to agree with it; you’re not bound by isolated judgments of the past, and there are good reasons to doubt the reasoning of the USSBS (they were acting in part out of fear that the atomic bombs would overshadow conventional bombing efforts and undercut their desire for a large and independent Air Force). But I think it is useful to point out that doubtful voices are not a recent thing, nor are they exclusively associated with the “obvious” points of views (like those sympathetic to Communism or the Soviets). The past is complicated, and the people in the past were complicated as well. I have frequently observed that the people who tell us not to impose present-day judgments on the past are unaware that many of these same judgments were made in the past as well.

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Lucan

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The alternative to a full blown invasion BTW was The Starvation Plan.
Another alternative, rarely mentioned, was basically to do nothing more.

The Japanese may have had a pitchfork army ready to fight an invasion, but it was incapbable of any further modern international warfare. It had no remaining sources of fuel, its armaments factories were destroyed, and its few remaining warships and aircraft were being sent out on suicide missions with insufficient fuel to return (and being destroyed almost as soon as they left base). Its remaining soldiers in its remaining conquered territories had no ammunition left.

There was no need to do anything further with Japan at that point other than monitor and destroy any new attempts at military build-up. Monitored civilian sea-borne trade could have been allowed to flow again to avoid a starvation scenario. Japan, with its dense population, has poor self-sufficiency in basic provisions, which is one of the reasons it went to war in the first place.
 

SJL2020

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Its remaining soldiers in its remaining conquered territories had no ammunition left.
The Japanese in SE Asia still had plenty of fight left in them even in the last few weeks of the war.

e.g. in mid July 1945 the Japanese were still able to inflict significant casualties on the Australian forces deployed to take control of the oil refinery facilities at Balikpapan on Borneo. Over 900 Aussies were killed or wounded in that battle.

The Japanese army occupying Indo-China was also well armed (An interesting side story is that in Sept 45 the British forces occupying Saigon stopped disarming the Japanese and instead enrolled them as 'allies' in the fight to combat the Viet Minh)
 

gordonthemoron

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What happened at the the end of WWII, after VE day is:

1. USSR attacked Japan, they performed extremely well through Manchuria
2. USA flattened most Japanese cities with convential bombs
3. There was a strong possibility of Japan faling to USSR
4. USA nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki
5. Japan surrended to USA, USSR were suitably impressed with nukes
 

AlterEgo

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So isn't that the fault of the Allies in that case? The Allies' refusal to accept anything other than surrender leading to the bombs being dropped doesn't look good to me.
What do you think would have happened to Japan if they’d been allowed to negotiate the terms of their own surrender?

The complete destruction of the Japanese state in 1945 was a good thing. A complete, total, 100% defeat with no mitigation. Excellent all round. Absolutely ghastly regime, and bat**** in the extreme too.
 
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