Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Darklord8899]

As controversial as this is, I wouldn't say they are too bad, other than 1-10, I find them rather comfortable and great buses and would happily see them return.

Personally, I've never had any issues travelling on the 7900's and have even done Longstone to Musselburgh on them more than once - (admittedly It was for leisure purposes meeting a friend and I always found it to be a enjoyable journey)

I do understand however, that as others have said, they are bad speedwise and size v capacity is pants and of course I've no idea what they are like to drive as I have never driven a bus! (Or a car for that matter as I don't have or ever had, a driving licence )

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I stay in Kirkliston and still wouldn’t give us a bus. We tried and they didn’t use it. Simples.

Sorry to but in like this but was LCB’s X38 really never used in Kirkliston? I would of thought that given the opportunity, the residents would of bought ridacards and that it could of been popular on its own right! In fairness it only had a 4 month lifespan before the first Lockdown happened.

Honestly I would of withdrawn the EX2 and kept the X38, hopefully a second chance can be had and for it not to be screwed up by lack of care

 

[DunsBus]

Sorry to but in like this but was LCB’s X38 really never used in Kirkliston? I would of thought that given the opportunity, the residents would of bought ridacards and that it could of been popular on its own right! In fairness it only had a 4 month lifespan before the first Lockdown happened.

Honestly I would of withdrawn the EX2 and kept the X38, hopefully a second chance can be had and for it not to be screwed up by lack of care

The EX1, EX2 and X38 were all launched with the sole objective of taking passengers from First. This didn't happen, not least because passengers stayed loyal to First. That's why these services had such a short lifespan. Lockdown or not, the X38 would likely have been withdrawn at some point as it was carrying fresh air.

 

[stevenedin]

I think that if Lothian Country launched another route (with a different number) that ran via the same route as First’s X38 but then at Linlithgow went to Livingston Centre it may take off.

 

[eh1]

I do understand however, that as others have said, they are bad speedwise and size v capacity is pants and of course I've no idea what they are like to drive as I have never driven a bus! (Or a car for that matter as I don't have or ever had, a driving licence )

11-50 drive fine, I don't get some drivers vendetta against them. It's 1 to 10 that are, shall we say... troublesome. Ive never had issues with speed on the MK2s, as long as the engine had kicked in they're fine.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I think that if Lothian Country launched another route (with a different number) that ran via the same route as First’s X38 but then at Linlithgow went to Livingston Centre it may take off.

Why would it? Winchburgh, Kirkliston and Linlithgow already have direct daily services to Livingston Centre and no one wants to travel from Edinburgh to Livingston via Linlithgow, it's not like it's an underserved connection...

The only way i could've seen the EX2 working is if it went to Falkirk but that wouldn't and didn't happen as it's outside of the three Lothian Council regions.

 

[overthewater]

Sorry to but in like this but was LCB’s X38 really never used in Kirkliston? I would of thought that given the opportunity, the residents would of bought ridacards and that it could of been popular on its own right! In fairness it only had a 4 month lifespan before the first Lockdown happened.

Honestly I would of withdrawn the EX2 and kept the X38, hopefully a second chance can be had and for it not to be screwed up by lack of care

The EX1, EX2 and X38 were all launched with the sole objective of taking passengers from First. This didn't happen, not least because passengers stayed loyal to First. That's why these services had such a short lifespan. Lockdown or not, the X38 would likely have been withdrawn at some point as it was carrying fresh air.

You still have to wonder how Lothian allowed such poorly designed routes like Ex1 and Ex2 to be given the go ahead in the first place.

In other news the local people of Fauldhouse have complained about the 281 coming off last year, once again they never used it...

Locals hit out as West Lothian bus service is scrapped "without warning"

Lothian Country Buses cancelled the 281 Lothian Country service in Fauldhouse to the anger of villagers

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Fauldhouse Community Council have voiced their frustration with Lothian Country Buses after the transportation firm cancelled the 281 Lothian Country service in Fauldhouse last November.

Members of the community council claim there was no consultation with locals before cancelling the service that left from Fauldhouse to Livingston via Bathgate - and that no one was notified about cancelling the route.
The suspension of the bus route was announced on Lothian buses website on November 5 - stating little more than ‘service suspended’ and that the change would take effect from November 14.
Many locals were unaware of the service cancellation of the 281 as the timetable is still plastered on bus stops around the West Lothian town - despite being cancelled five months ago.

Concerned locals say they have tried on several occasions to get an explanation from Lothian buses, but have had no response.
At a recent community council meeting in Fauldhouse, members say they were informed by a councillor that the 281 service had been cancelled as there is an alternative with First Bus 26 route.
Lothian Country’s 281 service travelled from Fauldhouse to Livingston via Bathgate, whereas First Bus’ 26 service travels from Bathgate to Livingston North via Bathgate - locals state that this is not an adequate replacement.

Community council member John Strang also noted that Blackridge had received an extra bus route from Lothian Country with a population of around 2000, and that Fauldhouse now has no coverage from Lothian Buses with a population of nearly 5000.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I think that if Lothian Country launched another route (with a different number) that ran via the same route as First’s X38 but then at Linlithgow went to Livingston Centre it may take off.

A slower alternative to Livingston from Kirkliston and Winchburgh to the 600 and covering Linlithgow where the current route to Livingston is relatively dead, yeah i think they’d pass on making a route like that

 

[stevenedin]

But it could provide more links between Linlithgow and Livingston

 

[mb88]

The X38 was moderately busy to and from Kirkliston. The rest of it carried fresh air, even from Winchburgh. Yet another example of a vocal minority complaining about the service provided by the incumbent operator, so a new operator steps in, no one uses it, it gets cut, then the same vocal minority complain about it being cut. We’ve seen it time and again, Fauldhouse was exactly the same as pointed out by overthewater.

 

[Humberscot]

The X38 was moderately busy to and from Kirkliston. The rest of it carried fresh air, even from Winchburgh. Yet another example of a vocal minority complaining about the service provided by the incumbent operator, so a new operator steps in, no one uses it, it gets cut, then the same vocal minority complain about it being cut. We’ve seen it time and again, Fauldhouse was exactly the same as pointed out by overthewater.

Winchburgh would pick up with passengers I am certain of that. I am in Winchburgh and the amount of new properties going up every month is considerable. As we've seen from other LCB services, people take their time to come across and there becomes a tipping point when passengers begin to appreciate the quality of service and word gets around. 4 months is nowhere near long enough to write this off. The continued lack of any rail provision and at best average service from First means that imo a service would be viable from Winchburgh. To compare Fauldhouse with Winchburgh shows a poor grip of the facts.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Winchburgh would pick up with passengers I am certain of that. I am in Winchburgh and the amount of new properties going up every month is considerable. As we've seen from other LCB services, people take their time to come across and there becomes a tipping point when passengers begin to appreciate the quality of service and word gets around. 4 months is nowhere near long enough to write this off. The continued lack of any rail provision and at best average service from First means that imo a service would be viable from Winchburgh. To compare Fauldhouse with Winchburgh shows a poor grip of the facts.

In this current climate though bus operators are going to be less patient than they otherwise would normally have been in the past. Winchburgh and Fauldhouse (especially the latter) both had more than long enough for something to begin to work, neither ultimately worked.

I think that if Lothian Country launched another route (with a different number) that ran via the same route as First’s X38 but then at Linlithgow went to Livingston Centre it may take off.

But it could provide more links between Linlithgow and Livingston

SD Travel’s hourly subsidised 31 already covers most of this link so any commercial service would likely render this redundant. This runs pretty much all day so the link in my view is covered fine.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Winchburgh would pick up with passengers I am certain of that. I am in Winchburgh and the amount of new properties going up every month is considerable. As we've seen from other LCB services, people take their time to come across and there becomes a tipping point when passengers begin to appreciate the quality of service and word gets around. 4 months is nowhere near long enough to write this off. The continued lack of any rail provision and at best average service from First means that imo a service would be viable from Winchburgh. To compare Fauldhouse with Winchburgh shows a poor grip of the facts.

Well considering Lothian have given Fauldhouse a chance twice (X17) and then the (281), means they must of had some faith in trying to gain passengers from that area, if the (X38) didn’t work the first time what’s to say it won’t a second time! Try a different angle! in an alternative universe when Lothian and First worked together rather than against one another, First’s X38 ran the M9 to Linlithgow and then the normal route to Stirling while Lothian ran the section between Newbridge and Linlithgow. both end up being successes in their own right and everybody wins!

but this is the real world so it’s not likely to happen! What I’m saying is I hope not all hope is lost in the foreseeable future! Kirkliston should at least get one more try at a Lothian service which would be better advertised!

 

[computerSaysNo]

Why is the ventilation on buses so often turned off? Especially on the 7900s with no opening windows!

 

[Bus9120UK]

Information for this year's X99 now on Lothian's site:

Cruiselink X99 - Lothian Buses

Our Cruiselink X99 is extremely popular with visitors arriving by cruise ship at Queensferry, providing direct, convenient and comfortable travel into the heart of Edinburgh’s city centre. Our fast and frequent service meets cruise ships arriving at Hawes Pier (Queensferry) and operates direct...

www.lothianbuses.com

Our Cruiselink X99 is extremely popular with visitors arriving by cruise boat at Queensferry. We’re delighted to be reinstating the service for the 2022 spring/summer season, providing visitors to the area with direct, convenient and comfortable travel into Edinburgh and the Lothian.

The service will depart from Hawes Pier in Queensferry to the city centre, and from South St David Street in Edinburgh (Stop PL) to Queensferry, operating every 20 minutes.

Also, the new Royal Highland Show page (https://www.lothianbuses.com/royal-highland-show/) suggests that the 97 may return this year

The Service 97 and Service 98 provide frequent direct links from the city centre to the showground entrance, allowing visitors to leave the car at home to enjoy the festivities in full.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

551 and 552 are back out tonight after an upgrade of some sort. Unable to tell if it’s any or all of Hanovers, seat re-trim and/or the new replacement roof pod thing - I don’t know the proper name for it but those of you who have seen it will know what I am referring to, apologies. If anyone knows anymore about this?

 

[Siemens Trains]

I’m intrigued…? Why would you want it to be operated by Lothian? What’s wrong with the service Lothian Country offer? Bearing in mind they are part of the Lothian Group, what would be so beneficial…?

A few reasons I could suggest, although nothing vital.
I feel the 43 is rather out on a limb when operated by Lothian Country, having virtually no commonality with their other routes. A couple of shared stops in the city centre and that's about it. The 43 seems more like the 41, 19 or 37 than the X18 or X27. I think it's the only 'all stops' city centre service that Lothian Country run. The Dechmont depot is probably further from the route than Central, Marine or Longstone, making it more tricky to run.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The Dechmont depot is probably further from the route than Central, Marine or Longstone, making it more tricky to run.

Distance wise it is further away, time wise I’m not so sure though.

The best depot to run the 43 in a dead mileage sense would be Newbridge, but obviously that’s the LMC depot. I wouldn’t say Livingston is any worse than Longstone in terms of dead runs, it’s more miles yes but it’s very close in terms of time.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The Dechmont depot is probably further from the route than Central, Marine or Longstone, making it more tricky to run.

I was told that the 43 is currently operating from Central, has this changed then?

Isn't the 43 operated by Livingston? If so wouldn't the Livingston drivers need training on the E400 type before they could drive it?
(Just basing this off the railway where you need training on every "type" of train before you can operate it.)

It was operated by Central and is now back at Central again

Edit: Just realized I might have misread/misinterpreted the part of the thread where the above were discussed, oops.

 

[Mickcloud9]

A few reasons I could suggest, although nothing vital.
I feel the 43 is rather out on a limb when operated by Lothian Country, having virtually no commonality with their other routes. A couple of shared stops in the city centre and that's about it. The 43 seems more like the 41, 19 or 37 than the X18 or X27. I think it's the only 'all stops' city centre service that Lothian Country run. The Dechmont depot is probably further from the route than Central, Marine or Longstone, making it more tricky to run.

The 43 isn’t an all stops service within the city centre. It stops on the same stops on Princes Street and Waterloo Place as the rest of the Lothian Country services, most of which are Set Down Only stops heading east. Heading west, it uplifts from ZJ, PQ and PU until Queensferry Street, where it takes in QE and QF at Drumsheugh.

After Learmonth it is the only service other than the 41 which usually waits until the 43 has cleared the road before they proceed along behind it, hence why it’s so busy and the depot is the Livingston Depot. Dechmont is somewhat along the road, and is served by the X18. It’s more Deans than Dechmont.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

The service 43 is very much operated from Livingston as a Lothian Country service. Central will occasionally plug gaps where breakdowns or other issues occur.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The service 43 is very much operated from Livingston as a Lothian Country service. Central will occasionally plug gaps where breakdowns or other issues occur.

Yes I've only just realized that I misinterpreted the messages from February, apologies.
How do the vehicles get off the 43 back to Deans, just down/along the motorway?

 

[Mickcloud9]

The off service route is thru Kirkliston and Newbridge onto the A89… timeboards allow for the travelling time and it is included in drivers hours also…

 

[computerSaysNo]

The off service route is thru Kirkliston and Newbridge onto the A89… timeboards allow for the travelling time and it is included in drivers hours also…

Ah yes, just looked it up on Maps, I hadn't realized how much longer the motorway route was in terms of miles (11.5 miles for the above route versus 15.5 miles via M90/M9/M8).

 

[ScotRail158725]

But it could provide more links between Linlithgow and Livingston

Which is not a profitable link hence why the current hourly service is typically quiet

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

551 and 552 are back out tonight after an upgrade of some sort. Unable to tell if it’s any or all of Hanovers, seat re-trim and/or the new replacement roof pod thing - I don’t know the proper name for it but those of you who have seen it will know what I am referring to, apologies. If anyone knows anymore about this?

Probably seat re-trim following on from 401-425

 

[Siemens Trains]

After Learmonth it is the only service other than the 41 which usually waits until the 43 has cleared the road before they proceed along behind it, hence why it’s so busy

From this (and your post on the First West Lothian thread describing aggresive competition for passengers) I sense you think the 41 drivers deliberately run immediately behind the 43 so they get a quiet life. I can't speak for Lanarkshire but I just don't notice much/any of this behaviour in Edinburgh or West Lothian. The principles here are that you don't miss stops unless absolutely obvious that it's clear and you only allow passengers to board at the flag. Drivers don't really have the opportunity to choose how many passengers travel on their route and I doubt they're under pressure to shape passenger numbers either.
Perhaps an issue with the 43 is that boarding time may be longer than the 41 because passengers often need to state their destination to the driver or wait for tickets to print out. This could mean the 43 runs slightly later when leaving the city centre while the 41 keeps to time more easily, regularly reducing the intended headway.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

From this (and your post on the First West Lothian thread describing aggresive competition for passengers) I sense you think the 41 drivers deliberately run immediately behind the 43 so they get a quiet life. I can't speak for Lanarkshire but I just don't notice much/any of this behaviour in Edinburgh or West Lothian. The principles here are that you don't miss stops unless absolutely obvious that it's clear and you only allow passengers to board at the flag. Drivers don't really have the opportunity to choose how many passengers travel on their route and I doubt they're under pressure to shape passenger numbers either.
Perhaps an issue with the 43 is that boarding time may be longer than the 41 because passengers often need to state their destination to the driver or wait for tickets to print out. This could mean the 43 runs slightly later when leaving the city centre while the 41 keeps to time more easily, regularly reducing the intended headway.

In any case the 41 really should be timed to depart before the 43. Get those that can get the 41 on the 41 and then those that need the 43 have a far better chance of getting on it.

At the minute this isn’t possible as the two routes are on different frequencies. With the new changes the 43 has been increased back to every 20 minutes so hopefully the sensible thing of making the two offer a combined every 10 minute frequency is done. In the peak hours though this may still be a problem, would it possibly be better if the core every 10 minutes was kept with those additional 43’s slotted in right behind the 41’s. This assuming that both buses would be more or less full in any case. However it seems more likely that the 43 will go up to every 15 mins during the peak.

 

[Mickcloud9]

From this (and your post on the First West Lothian thread describing aggresive competition for passengers) I sense you think the 41 drivers deliberately run immediately behind the 43 so they get a quiet life. I can't speak for Lanarkshire but I just don't notice much/any of this behaviour in Edinburgh or West Lothian. The principles here are that you don't miss stops unless absolutely obvious that it's clear and you only allow passengers to board at the flag. Drivers don't really have the opportunity to choose how many passengers travel on their route and I doubt they're under pressure to shape passenger numbers either.
Perhaps an issue with the 43 is that boarding time may be longer than the 41 because passengers often need to state their destination to the driver or wait for tickets to print out. This could mean the 43 runs slightly later when leaving the city centre while the 41 keeps to time more easily, regularly reducing the intended headway.

Given the running time on the 43 it is unlikely the 43 is delayed. It is well perceived the 41 drivers are at Cramond awaiting the 43 passing the junction at Barnton before they follow on. Also the ridacards and concessionary travel passes are not issued with tickets, they are registered on the ETM. Only tickets issued are for fare paying £1.80’s or day tickets, this also would be unlikely to cause a delay. The 43’s run to their times as the amount of time on the run is far more than required, in fact often the service has to wait it’s time at several points across a journey. Plus the turnaround time at Regent Road is well over that of any other service. Given the 41 is being re-routed, it would suggest the 43 has that part of the route well and truly covered as the numbers being recorded will show the true picture.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

In any case the 41 really should be timed to depart before the 43. Get those that can get the 41 on the 41 and then those that need the 43 have a far better chance of getting on it.

At the minute this isn’t possible as the two routes are on different frequencies. With the new changes the 43 has been increased back to every 20 minutes so hopefully the sensible thing of making the two offer a combined every 10 minute frequency is done. In the peak hours though this may still be a problem, would it possibly be better if the core every 10 minutes was kept with those additional 43’s slotted in right behind the 41’s. This assuming that both buses would be more or less full in any case. However it seems more likely that the 43 will go up to every 15 mins during the peak.

I agree. I never have understood why companies have buses going thru the same arteries around the same time. Surely it would be sensible to spread them out to provide a better service. It’s the same in Bathgate, the X18, X28 & 280 all go from Bathgate thru to Mossbank Roundabout almost at the same time.

 

[Jordan Adam]

In all honesty if it were any other city/operator the 41 and 43 would be combined in to different variations of the same service with a fully integrated and cohesive timetable. It's another example in Edinburgh where you have more than one service trying to do the same thing for no real valid reason.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

In all honesty if it were any other city/operator the 41 and 43 would be combined in to different variations of the same service with a fully integrated and cohesive timetable. It's another example in Edinburgh where you have more than one service trying to do the same thing for no real valid reason.

Remember the 41 and 43 come June will be quite different, and will only mirror each other between Princes Street and Blackhall now. From my experience the journeys made only within this section (not starting and going outside it or vice versa) are nothing impressive except for during the peak perhaps?

I’d far rather have two separate routes than say what First Glasgow have with the 38 having what is it 5 different variations of the same number? 38/A/B/C/E - that’s way too many and for some probably over complicated. I understand why they do this but surely it gets to a point where it’s just too many. Yes absolutely the 41 and 43 should be integrated in a timetabling sense though.

I remember First having something similar in East Lothian with the 44 which again had A/B/C/D variations. And again too many.

Lothian ditched all of the ‘A’ letter variations quote a few years back now which in some places was a good idea, and some probably not. Then the 47B came along…

 

[Jordan Adam]

Remember the 41 and 43 come June will be quite different, and will only mirror each other between Princes Street and Blackhall now. From my experience the journeys made only within this section (not starting and going outside it or vice versa) are nothing impressive except for during the peak perhaps?

I’d far rather have two separate routes than say what First Glasgow have with the 38 having what is it 5 different variations of the same number? 38/A/B/C/E - that’s way too many and for some probably over complicated. I understand why they do this but surely it gets to a point where it’s just too many. Yes absolutely the 41 and 43 should be integrated in a timetabling sense though.

I remember First having something similar in East Lothian with the 44 which again had A/B/C/D variations. And again too many.

Lothian ditched all of the ‘A’ letter variations quote a few years back now which in some places was a good idea, and some probably not. Then the 47B came along…

I'm not saying they should use the same number, routes can be integrated as one without having to use the same number. Look at Aberdeen's 1/2 for example. But at the very least I do think the 41 and 43 timetables should be properly integrated, it's pointless running two services along the same corridor at similar but slightly differing frequencies. It's just not an efficient use of resources.