ECML York-Newcastle TPE/XC Paths

[TheBigD]

Following on from the recent consultation thread for the now defferred ECML May 2022 timetable...

In the latest Modern Railways (May edition) which dropped through the letterbox this morning, there is the following in the article about the forthcoming May timetable changes, but referring to the now deferred May 2022 ECML timetable.

"...In this new timetable, the word is that on the route north of York, the proposed path allocationis set to change. The original proposal was 3tph LNER, 1tph TransPennine Express, 2tph CrossCountry; therevised suggestion would be 1.5tph each for TPE and
CrossCounty..."

So which XC services and which TPE sewrvices should these paths be for?

Would we see the hourly XC path being the (pre Covid) accelerated path for the Reading-Newcastle which had an impressive journey time of around 1hr50m Birmingham-York, and 2hr50m to Newcastle, with the Plymouth to Edinburgh (via Leeds) service north of York every other hour? Or would it be reversed with the Plymouth-Edinburgh (via Leeds) being hourly and a slow path for the Reading-Newcastle (around 3hr20m Birmingham to Newcastle) every other hour?

I'm guessing the TPE would be an hourly Liverpool-Newcastle with a 2 hourly extension of the Manchester Voc-York service through to Newcastle.

Or something entirley different for both XC and TPE?



Original thread...

Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

Mod Note: It appears that there are currently four separate consultations underway between CrossCountry, LNER, Transpennine Express, Northern and Great Northern/Thameslink relating to the May 2022 timetable change and their ECML services. Links to all four are below and some documents have been...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Shernan]

Not sure about XC, but TPE could do either Liverpool Newcastle every hour, or Manchester Airport Newcastle and Liverpool Newcastle every other hour.

 

[30907]

I don't know the answer, though I suspect it is: whatever we can sensibly path.

Some thinking out loud:

1. There is probably a market for Leeds-Scotland hourly (though as a through service it is relatively recent), but it could be shared TPE/XC.

2. I have never been fully convinced of the need for 2tph north of Northallerton on TP.

But - the problem with any service that is 3 per 2hr is that you unbalance the loadings. From that POV it would be preferable to keep Leeds-Scotland with one operator, and in overall terms that must be XC because of the East Midlands traffic. That is assuming only 1tph north of Newcastle.

If you had 2tph (non EC) north of Newcastle (which TBH is overkill), then I would go for TPE via Leeds and XC via Doncaster. (But then I have a long held view that the XC Leeds service should NOT go to Edinburgh, so am biased!).

So, despite my first thoughts perhaps the best overall solution is:
1. XC via Doncaster hourly to Scotland
2. TPE hourly to Scotland (serving Reston etc)
3. XC to Newcastle via Leeds 2-hourly (essentially for NE-SW or Reading traffic). Alternate trains terminate York (or Bradford FS?)
4. TPE 2-hourly to Newcastle "slow". Alternate trains terminate York (or Scarboro?)
As to destinations at the other end - toss a coin?

 

[Manutd1999]

I don't really see what benefits it would bring if XC/TPE shared the third path? It just adds more complication.

I would keep it simple:

XC Birmingham - Newcastle via Doncaster
XC Birmingham - Edinburgh via Leeds
TPE Liverpool - Newcastle

This adequately covers most of the main markets:

• Fast connections between Birmingham and Newcastle/York
• 2ph Leeds to Newcastle
• 1ph Liverpool/Manchester to Newcastle
• 1ph Leeds/Sheffield to Edinburgh

In the longer term, the Liverpool - Newcastle would ideally be increased to half-hourly, but if there is not space then cutting it back to York is not the end of the world.

 

[david1212]

The first preference for most passengers is a through service but so long as the connections are good both as timetabled and if disruption having to change is reasonable.

While stopping patterns vary Newcastle <> York has numerous several each hour.

In comparison Reading <> Southampton/Bournemouth now has some 2 hour gaps and this will continue from the timetable change next month. Similarly the south-west has a significantly reduced service compared to 2019. I would like to see some XC services terminated a York to allow at least some of the gaps to be plugged. TPE could then run in the paths north from York.

When each operator was a franchise seeking to maximise their farebox income I suspect XC had more income from York - Newcastle - Edinburgh. However now, or at least when the DfT get their act together, what counts is the overall farebox income. Would having to change deter many passengers? In comparison would the increased service to the south coast and south-west generate significantly more farebox income?

 

[Rich McLean]

I don't think XC are continuing with pre-pandemic 2tph York - Newcastle, since the hourly Reading-Newcastle isn't coming back anytime soon, so that is the likely service via Doncaster to drop down to every two hours from what is was, so essentially, TPE will be filling the gap every other hour that XC no longer cover.

 

[Purple Orange]

If it is to be 1.5 tph split between TPE and XC, it surely has to be the XC via Leeds that gets reduced to 0.5 tph, with the via Doncaster route remaining at 1 tph. If you are travelling from the North East to a destination south of Leeds, the XC service is one to actively avoid due to the meander through Yorkshire. I'd go for the folowing:

• 1 tph Liverpool-Edinburgh
• 1 tph Plymouth-Edinburgh via Doncaster
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-York
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-Newcastle
• 0.5 tph Reading-Leeds
• 0.5 tph Reading-Newcastle via Leeds

 

[Rich McLean]

If it is to be 1.5 tph split between TPE and XC, it surely has to be the XC via Leeds that gets reduced to 0.5 tph, with the via Doncaster route remaining at 1 tph. If you are travelling from the North East to a destination south of Leeds, the XC service is one to actively avoid due to the meander through Yorkshire. I'd go for the folowing:

• 1 tph Liverpool-Edinburgh
• 1 tph Plymouth-Edinburgh via Doncaster
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-York
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-Newcastle
• 0.5 tph Reading-Leeds
• 0.5 tph Reading-Newcastle via Le

All well and good, but that is if the paths are available without a big re-cast. Also, I don't think the Reading - Newcastle service is going to go back to 1tph. There are only 3tpd that do it currently, plus a late Leeds Terminator from Plymouth.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd go for the folowing:

• 1 tph Liverpool-Edinburgh
• 1 tph Plymouth-Edinburgh via Doncaster
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-York
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-Newcastle
• 0.5 tph Reading-Leeds
• 0.5 tph Reading-Newcastle via Leeds

There is a two-way issue on the 'via Leeds' issue - is it right to cut off Leeds from the South West just to make it quicker to get from north of there to the South West or should more destinations have services to the South West?

It does seem that the long-term XC service is 1tph Plymouth to Edinburgh via Leeds now with the second tph on the axis withdrawn. If that can run with double voyagers it maximises capacity for most travellers.

 

[Purple Orange]

All well and good, but that is if the paths are available without a big re-cast. Also, I don't think the Reading - Newcastle service is going to go back to 1tph. There are only 3tpd that do it currently, plus a late Leeds Terminator from Plymouth.

Isn’t the point that there will be a recast?

There is a two-way issue on the 'via Leeds' issue - is it right to cut off Leeds from the South West just to make it quicker to get from north of there to the South West or should more destinations have services to the South West?

It does seem that the long-term XC service is 1tph Plymouth to Edinburgh via Leeds now with the second tph on the axis withdrawn. If that can run with double voyagers it maximises capacity for most travellers.

Swap it for South West-Leeds and South Coast-Scotland via Doncaster, but your second paragraph answers your first to a degree. If XC is going to 1 tph regardless, it makes the question of running 1.5tph TPE/XC redundant in that case.

 

[Rich McLean]

Isn’t the point that there will be a recast?


Swap it for South West-Leeds and South Coast-Scotland via Doncaster, but your second paragraph answers your first to a degree. If XC is going to 1 tph regardless, it makes the question of running 1.5tph TPE/XC redundant in that case.

It may to go 1tp2hr from December for the Reading-Newcastle service, but not back to 1tph. Same for Bristol - Manchester going 1tp2hr, whereas it was hourly before.

 

[Manutd1999]

TPE Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh
XC South West - Birmingham - Leeds - York
XC South Coast - Birmingham - Doncaster - Newcastle - Edinburgh

^ That is arguably a better way to organise the XC services, with the Leeds service focusing only on connections to Birmingham/onwards and the 'fast' path providing connections to Newcastle/Edinburgh. TPE are also better placed to serve Leeds-Edinburgh using Bi-modes.

However, if the second hourly XC is only restored as 1p2h this is all a mute point

 

[Starmill]

If it is to be 1.5 tph split between TPE and XC, it surely has to be the XC via Leeds that gets reduced to 0.5 tph, with the via Doncaster route remaining at 1 tph. If you are travelling from the North East to a destination south of Leeds, the XC service is one to actively avoid due to the meander through Yorkshire. I'd go for the folowing:

• 1 tph Liverpool-Edinburgh
• 1 tph Plymouth-Edinburgh via Doncaster
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-York
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-Newcastle
• 0.5 tph Reading-Leeds
• 0.5 tph Reading-Newcastle via Leeds

This is simply not going to happen - Leeds is too much of a major traffic generator and draw to bypass.

 

[Purple Orange]

This is simply not going to happen - Leeds is too much of a major traffic generator and draw to bypass.

How is it any different than before? XC had always bypassed Leeds with 1 tph and had 1 tph to Birmingham, then onwards. It also only had 2 tph to Newcastle, which it still would.

It may to go 1tp2hr from December for the Reading-Newcastle service, but not back to 1tph. Same for Bristol - Manchester going 1tp2hr, whereas it was hourly before.

So how wo you suggest a 1.5 tph frequency between TPE & XC work?

 

[Rich McLean]

How is it any different than before? XC had always bypassed Leeds with 1 tph and had 1 tph to Birmingham, then onwards. It also only had 2 tph to Newcastle, which it still would.


So how wo you suggest a 1.5 tph frequency between TPE & XC work?

Currently XC run 1tph between Birmingham and Newcastle via Leeds and York, with the last Leeds terminator going via Doncaster. There are an addition 3 trains per day between Birmingham and Newcastle, that go via Doncaster, and that's it. Dft will not allow or XC have got the establishment to go back to 2tph one via Leeds and one via Doncaster.

What you are suggesting is that services via Leeds are cut back to 1 train every two hours, via Doncaster going from 3 trains a day to hourly. So post December, XC should look a bit like this

Plymouth - Edinbrugh via Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds & York - 1tph
Bournemouth - Manchester via Reading & Birmingham 1tph
Bristol TM - Manchester via Birmingham 1tp2hr
Reading - Newcastle via Birmingham, Doncaster & York - 1tp2hr

In the alternate hours to the XC serivce, TPE would run an extra between York & Newcastle, giving you 6 trains per hour, 2 of which stopping at Northallterton, and 1tph stopping at Chester-le-Street. This is not including GC and Middlesbrough services.

 

[Purple Orange]

Currently XC run 1tph between Birmingham and Newcastle via Leeds and York, with the last Leeds terminator going via Doncaster. There are an addition 3 trains per day between Birmingham and Newcastle, that go via Doncaster, and that's it. Dft will not allow or XC have got the establishment to go back to 2tph one via Leeds and one via Doncaster.

What you are suggesting is that services via Leeds are cut back to 1 train every two hours, via Doncaster going from 3 trains a day to hourly. So post December, XC should look a bit like this

Plymouth - Edinbrugh via Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds & York - 1tph
Bournemouth - Manchester via Reading & Birmingham 1tph
Bristol TM - Manchester via Birmingham 1tp2hr
Reading - Newcastle via Birmingham, Doncaster & York - 1tp2hr

In the alternate hours to the XC serivce, TPE would run an extra between York & Newcastle, giving you 6 trains per hour, 2 of which stopping at Northallterton, and 1tph stopping at Chester-le-Street. This is not including GC and Middlesbrough services.

I’m not suggesting that services via Leeds are cut back to 1 train per 2 hours. I suggested the following:

• 1 tph Liverpool-Edinburgh
• 1 tph Plymouth-Edinburgh via Doncaster
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-York
• 0.5 tph Manchester Airport-Newcastle
• 0.5 tph Reading-Leeds
• 0.5 tph Reading-Newcastle via Leeds

Leeds clearly would have 2 tph heading to Newcastle and 1 tph heading to Birmingham, with TPE carrying the Manchester bound passengers. For a passenger from Leeds, it is irrelevant if it is a XC or TPE train heading north.

 

[weeklycommuter]

When Cross Country cut half their North South services they continued the hourly Edinburgh-Plymouth service (which calls at Leeds) and cut the hourly Newcastle-Reading service (which called at Doncaster) so I assume Edinburgh-Plymouth is the service Cross Country want to run. Leeds has five times the footfall of Doncaster so I expect Cross Country want their trains to call at Leeds as this must attract a lot more passengers than calling at Doncaster. Cross Country clearly have no plans to restart an hourly Newcastle-Reading service, this will probably be a permanent casualty of the current cuts to train services and Cross Country will probably only run 1 tph York-Newcastle in future, their Edinburgh-Plymouth service, with another train operator taking the 1 tph York-Newcastle paths previously used by the Cross Country Newcastle-Reading service.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I don't know the answer, though I suspect it is: whatever we can sensibly path.

Some thinking out loud:

1. There is probably a market for Leeds-Scotland hourly (though as a through service it is relatively recent), but it could be shared TPE/XC.

2. I have never been fully convinced of the need for 2tph north of Northallerton on TP.

But - the problem with any service that is 3 per 2hr is that you unbalance the loadings. From that POV it would be preferable to keep Leeds-Scotland with one operator, and in overall terms that must be XC because of the East Midlands traffic. That is assuming only 1tph north of Newcastle.

If you had 2tph (non EC) north of Newcastle (which TBH is overkill), then I would go for TPE via Leeds and XC via Doncaster. (But then I have a long held view that the XC Leeds service should NOT go to Edinburgh, so am biased!).

So, despite my first thoughts perhaps the best overall solution is:
1. XC via Doncaster hourly to Scotland
2. TPE hourly to Scotland (serving Reston etc)
3. XC to Newcastle via Leeds 2-hourly (essentially for NE-SW or Reading traffic). Alternate trains terminate York (or Bradford FS?)
4. TPE 2-hourly to Newcastle "slow". Alternate trains terminate York (or Scarboro?)
As to destinations at the other end - toss a coin?

I'd have started them at York with the higher capacity 80x trains covering the bit to and from Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Run York - Southampton services every hour then you've more capacity to and from Reading and Southampton too.

This is pre-covid sorry.

Would there be paths for 2tph between Reading and Southampton pre-covid or is it likely to be a 2-hourly extension to and from Reading and Southampton?

 

[weeklycommuter]

I'd have started them at York with the higher capacity 80x trains covering the bit to and from Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Run York - Southampton services every hour then you've more capacity to and from Reading and Southampton too.

This is pre-covid sorry.

Would there be paths for 2tph between Reading and Southampton pre-covid or is it likely to be a 2-hourly extension to and from Reading and Southampton?

Consolidated agreements | Office of Rail and Road

A consolidated (or conformed) agreement is a document incorporating all approved amendments to the existing approved agreement.

www.orr.gov.uk

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-02/xc-trains-limited-consolidated-agreement.pdf

Passenger daily train slots from page 82 Mon-Fri/Sat/Sun
Bournemouth-Reading 14/15/11
Reading-Bournemouth 15/15/12
enough for the hourly XC Manchester-Bournemouth service every day
Southampton-Reading 8/8/1
Reading-Southampton 7/7/1
Five Newcastle-Reading trains a day were extended to Southampton Central Monday to Saturday forming a two hourly service during the day. XC may have the paths for one or two more but not for an hourly service Newcastle-Reading-Southampton Central
Reading-Basingstoke-Southampton is an important freight route in addition to having many passenger train services. When the hourly XC Manchester-Bournemouth and two hourly XC Newcastle-Reading-Southampton ran there were 9.5 passenger trains per hour to Southampton Central Monday to Saturday.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Consolidated agreements | Office of Rail and Road

A consolidated (or conformed) agreement is a document incorporating all approved amendments to the existing approved agreement.

www.orr.gov.uk

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-02/xc-trains-limited-consolidated-agreement.pdf

Passenger daily train slots from page 82 Mon-Fri/Sat/Sun
Bournemouth-Reading 14/15/11
Reading-Bournemouth 15/15/12
enough for the hourly XC Manchester-Bournemouth service every day
Southampton-Reading 8/8/1
Reading-Southampton 7/7/1
Five Newcastle-Reading trains a day were extended to Southampton Central Monday to Saturday forming a two hourly service during the day. XC may have the paths for one or two more but not for an hourly service Newcastle-Reading-Southampton Central
Reading-Basingstoke-Southampton is an important freight route in addition to having many passenger train services. When the hourly XC Manchester-Bournemouth and two hourly XC Newcastle-Reading-Southampton ran there were 9.5 passenger trains per hour to Southampton Central Monday to Saturday.

Of course - I didn't think about the importance of freight. Thanks - I'd still suggest York though which also means you can terminate 5-car Voyagers there subject to platform availability!

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd have started them at York with the higher capacity 80x trains covering the bit to and from Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Run York - Southampton services every hour then you've more capacity to and from Reading and Southampton too.

This is pre-covid sorry.

Would there be paths for 2tph between Reading and Southampton pre-covid or is it likely to be a 2-hourly extension to and from Reading and Southampton?

2 tph XC south of Reading requires additional infrastructure such as extended loops and grade separation at Basingstoke. It’s been well documented in various route studies. The 6 per day pre Covid was all that was possible.

 

[weeklycommuter]

There should be a rerun of the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable consultation

Various consultations on the May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable

Mod Note: It appears that there are currently four separate consultations underway between CrossCountry, LNER, Transpennine Express, Northern and Great Northern/Thameslink relating to the May 2022 timetable change and their ECML services. Links to all four are below and some documents have been...

www.railforums.co.uk

soon with proposed May 2023 East Coast Mainline timetables for the different train operators including LNER, TPE and XC. The May 2022 East Coast Mainline timetable consultation started in June 2021 so a May 2023 East Coast Mainline timetable consultation should start in June 2022.