Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station

[Jonah Kemp]

Does anyone know why these stations don't have platform edge doors like the JLE? I thought they would have had them. Is it something to do with the trains? On another note why doesn't the Victoria line stations have PEDs?

 

[bramling]

Does anyone know why these stations don't have platform edge doors like the JLE? I thought they would have had them. Is it something to do with the trains? On another note why doesn't the Victoria line stations have PEDs?

PEDs are extremely expensive, both to procure and maintain, and are a massive operational headache for numerous reasons. It simply wasn’t worth all this for two stations.

I’m not certain on this, but I suspect both stations may have passive provision for them to be retrofitted.

 

[Jonah Kemp]

PEDs are extremely expensive, both to procure and maintain, and are a massive operational headache for numerous reasons. It simply wasn’t worth all this for two stations.

I’m not certain on this, but I suspect both stations may have passive provision for them to be retrofitted.

Cheers

 

[Busaholic]

PEDs are extremely expensive, both to procure and maintain, and are a massive operational headache for numerous reasons. It simply wasn’t worth all this for two stations.

I’m not certain on this, but I suspect both stations may have passive provision for them to be retrofitted.

Surely the real reason is that the existing Northern Line trains weren't designed to have systems compatible with PEDs, which is why no PEDs exist on any Northern Line platform. If and when the delayed new fleet of trains materialise, then platform edge doors could be retrofitted.

 

[bramling]

Surely the real reason is that the existing Northern Line trains weren't designed to have systems compatible with PEDs, which is why no PEDs exist on any Northern Line platform. If and when the delayed new fleet of trains materialise, then platform edge doors could be retrofitted.

I don’t think fitting the relevant equipment is *that* much of an issue. More of an issue might be that the door layout of any future fleet is highly likely to be different, so you’d only get 20 years or so out of any PED installation.

The real reason is that they’re an utter nuisance though, so to fit them you need a pretty good case to make the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

 

[2192]

The existing platforms might not be wide enough to allow reasonable passenger flow after fitting. You lose about 6 inches of width when you fit the doors to the platforms.

 

[LUYMun]

There's not enough demand to justify Platform Edge Doors at Nine Elms and Battersea. The Jubilee line extension was going to see a huge number of passengers, so having PEDs would enhance safety for such busy stations.

 

[Mikey C]

The stations are designed so that platform edge doors can be retrospectively added, but this is only likely to happen when the fleet is replace, which won't be for 20 years I imagine

Find an Answer | London City Hall

www.london.gov.uk

The platforms at Nine Elms and Battersea on the Northern Line Extension have been designed with provision for Platform Edge Doors (PEDs) to be installed in the future if required. The most likely time Transport for London (TfL) would introduce PEDs would be when the Northern line fleet is replaced and the design of the new fleet can be developed with a specification to interface with a PED system, as was the case with the Jubilee Line Extension in the mid-1990s.

 

[MikeWh]

The existing platforms might not be wide enough to allow reasonable passenger flow after fitting. You lose about 6 inches of width when you fit the doors to the platforms.

They are more than wide enough at both stations.

 

[Cdd89]

I would have thought it would be technically possible for the train to be “dumb” and for the PEDs to track the doors visually using markings on the train.

(However, “possible” and “wise to experiment with on key infrastructure” are obviously two different things!).

 

[Basil Jet]

The existing platforms might not be wide enough to allow reasonable passenger flow after fitting. You lose about 6 inches of width when you fit the doors to the platforms.

No-one ever stands within six inches of a platform edge anyway, whereas a crowd can lean on a PED wall. IMO platform doors should be fitted immediately on the narrow island platforms at Clapham North and Clapham Common in order to create space and peace of mind at both stations.

 

[LUYMun]

No-one ever stands within six inches of a platform edge anyway, whereas a crowd can lean on a PED wall. IMO platform doors should be fitted immediately on the narrow island platforms at Clapham North and Clapham Common in order to create space and peace of mind at both stations.

There's no way PEDs can be implemented at both Clapham stations since narrow platforms are a key issue which doesn't affect the new stations. One (real) solution is to block one of the platform so either station could be a "northbound only/southbound only" station. While cheap to implement, this inconveniences many passengers. The second option is to build a new platform alongside the current ones with the old track infilled with an extended platform, much like Angel and Bank. However, this is more costly. Overall, neither Clapham stations are at the top of TfL's agenda in terms of finance, interest and safety.

 

[2192]

They are more than wide enough at both stations.

But not at the rest of the Northern line route that the trains use?

 

[alf]

There's no way PEDs can be implemented at both Clapham stations since narrow platforms are a key issue which doesn't affect the new stations. One (real) solution is to block one of the platform so either station could be a "northbound only/southbound only" station. While cheap to implement, this inconveniences many passengers. The second option is to build a new platform alongside the current ones with the old track infilled with an extended platform, much like Angel and Bank. However, this is more costly. Overall, neither Clapham stations are at the top of TfL's agenda in terms of finance, interest and safety.

They would be at the top of the agenda if overcrowding on those painfully narrow platforms led to harrowing deaths under a train.

Pre Covid I found the Clapham island platforms very very scary.

It would only need a panic & people would be pushed onto the tracks as there is no where else to go.

 

[brewer85]

But not at the rest of the Northern line route that the trains use?

I don't think anyone has been suggesting platform edge doors will be installed on the rest of the Northern Line, only on the two new stations (Nine Elms and Battersea). After all, on the Jubilee Line, only the new stations have platform edge doors, they weren't retrofitted to the earlier stations.

 

[zwk500]

But not at the rest of the Northern line route that the trains use?

It's not just width but also straightness. Having a large gap between the PED and the train door would likely be seen as a massive potential risk (not sure on exactly what legal/industry limits are on this though)

 

[DanNCL]

Platform edge doors weren't fitted at Nine Elms or Battersea Power Station both for cost and so as not to constrain any future replacement of the 1995 stock on the line to having the same door positions. The platform edge doors on the Jubilee Line Extension were part of the reason (along with cost) why the previously planned extra trains for the Jubilee line never happened, as any new trains would need to be the same size and have the same door positions as the 1996 stock. I think they're wise not to also put this restriction on the Northern line.

Surely the real reason is that the existing Northern Line trains weren't designed to have systems compatible with PEDs, which is why no PEDs exist on any Northern Line platform. If and when the delayed new fleet of trains materialise, then platform edge doors could be retrofitted.

The 1995 stock has passive provision for platform edge door compatibility.

There's no way PEDs can be implemented at both Clapham stations since narrow platforms are a key issue which doesn't affect the new stations. One (real) solution is to block one of the platform so either station could be a "northbound only/southbound only" station. While cheap to implement, this inconveniences many passengers. The second option is to build a new platform alongside the current ones with the old track infilled with an extended platform, much like Angel and Bank. However, this is more costly. Overall, neither Clapham stations are at the top of TfL's agenda in terms of finance, interest and safety.

Narrow island platforms hasn't been considered a reason not to install platform edge doors on the Glasgow Subway, which has many stations with platforms as narrow as, if not narrower than, those at the two Clapham stations. Why would it be any different on the Tube?

 

[mmh]

No-one ever stands within six inches of a platform edge anyway, whereas a crowd can lean on a PED wall. IMO platform doors should be fitted immediately on the narrow island platforms at Clapham North and Clapham Common in order to create space and peace of mind at both stations.

No-one ever stands within six inches of a platform edge anyway,

Good lord, of course they do!

 

[jfollows]

Pre Covid I found the Clapham island platforms very very scary.

Pre Covid I would catch the 35 bus to Brixton to get on an empty Victoria line train rather than wait at Clapham Common on the busy island platform in the morning rush hour.

 

[Taunton]

It would only need a panic & people would be pushed onto the tracks as there is no where else to go.

Has this ever happened in the 125 years since the stations were built?

As I understood it the PEDs on the Jubilee Line were provided not for safety reasons (otherwise they would be provided at Green Park and northward as well on the 1977-built section), but for ventilation and airflow control with the higher speed of trains on the new line through tube tunnels.

 

[philthetube]

When Clapham Common was extremely busy I have been instructed to hold a train in the platform while the platform emptied for safety reasons.
Installing doors would remove over 12 inches from the platform width, which is quite a proportion. The Platforms are approx 10' wide so you would be losing at least 10% of capacity.

 

[bramling]

Has this ever happened in the 125 years since the stations were built?

Don't think it's happened, though that may well be more through luck than design.

There was an incident at one of the Claphams a few years ago where a blind person alighted from a train and walked straight off the opposite side of the platform (thankfully without coming to harm). From what I recall this was largely put down to lack of tactile paving at the time.

 

[Domh245]

Installing doors would remove over 12 inches from the platform width, which is quite a proportion. The Platforms are approx 10' wide so you would be losing at least 10% of capacity.

At least mathematically. I think any capacity lost by the reduction in width would be more than made up by the fact passengers could go "hard" up against the edge and effectively "crush load" the platform which they can't do currently

 

[Railcar]

Have there been any 'one unders' on the section of the Jubilee Line with PEDs?

 

[Central]

Have there been any 'one unders' on the section of the Jubilee Line with PEDs?

I was told that the main purpose of PEDs was to stop the rush of air when a train approaches,the fact that they stop people throwing themselves under trains was a happy by product.

 

[bramling]

I was told that the main purpose of PEDs was to stop the rush of air when a train approaches,the fact that they stop people throwing themselves under trains was a happy by product.

I’ve always thought that was a bit of political speak, in order to avoid a clamour for PEDs being retrofitted elsewhere.

But, yes, the JLE stations only have tunnel fan shafts, not draught relief shafts. Battersea and Nine Elms has both, but so does Crossrail.

 

[Basil Jet]

Have there been any 'one unders' on the section of the Jubilee Line with PEDs?

I think that would qualify as a "one over".

 

[rebmcr]

I was told that the main purpose of PEDs was to stop the rush of air when a train approaches,the fact that they stop people throwing themselves under trains was a happy by product.

The Platform Edge Doors used on the Jubilee Line Extension are (above 2 metres or so height) completely open between the track area and the platform area. There is nothing to prevent air movement between the tunnels and stations.

Conversely, the Platform Screen Doors used on the Elizabeth Line do provide full separation.

 

[Steddenm]

Spotted something odd today at Nine Elms. The platform signage shows Battersea Power Station as having a National Rail and Overground connection at the station, yet nowhere else on the Tube maps, on board announcements or at Battersea Power Station Station itself.

 

[MikeWh]

Battersea Power Station to Battersea Park or Queenstown Road are both Oyster OSIs and valid for use on maltese cross tickets.