Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[VioletEclipse]

I don’t think that’s controversial at all. The entire network does need a re-think. As the years go on more and more new urban villages are going to appear so it will eventually get to a point where it needs to be ripped up and started again.

There’s some things I still wouldn’t touch but if I’m honest that is now a much lower number than it was 10 years ago.

Agreed. There's also the case that Kirkliston (within the City of Edinburgh) currently has no Lothian services at all, while Loanhead (in Midlothian) which is a similar-ish size has the 37, 47 and 140. And other issues like (in regular times) Princes Street gets pretty much every single bus that goes to the city centre while Queen Street and the northern new town have very few buses in comparison.

In my opinion the entire transport network in the city needs a comprehensive and planned overhaul but that's another discussion.

 

[mullac30]

Does anyone know if I can buy an open return on the 300 to the airport and use it on the N100 on the way back a week later? I tried looking on the Lothian website, but the conditions are very vague.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Does anyone know if I can buy an open return on the 300 to the airport and use it on the N100 on the way back a week later? I tried looking on the Lothian website, but the conditions are very vague.

To be fair it doesn’t say no, and it is still an Airport bus after all. But with it being the Night service it does add that element of doubt.

I would say yes as it’s still an Airport service but it’s probably worth checking with Lothian themselves.

 

[InOban]

I don't understand the enthusiasm of posters for the extension of the 41 to serve Cammo. Who there wants to take such a roundabout route into the city? And the section between Barnton and Crammond is an area of £1m + mansions which are hardly likely to generate much bus traffic unless it's their daily staff. It would surely have been better to extend either the 2 or 12 from the Gyle. That would give access to both shopping and work.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I don't understand the enthusiasm of posters for the extension of the 41 to serve Cammo. Who there wants to take such a roundabout route into the city? And the section between Barnton and Crammond is an area of £1m + mansions which are hardly likely to generate much bus traffic unless it's their daily staff. It would surely have been better to extend either the 2 or 12 from the Gyle. That would give access to both shopping and work.

Agreed. If the only bus to a relatively wealthy suburb decently far from shops or the city centre is a bus that takes over 30 minutes into town and often gets stuck in traffic then it forces and/or encourages people to drive to the shops or into town even if they'd rather not, increasing traffic, which delays buses even more and it feeds itself. decent buses that reliably get people to where they need to go (eg the Gyle and town) would probably be better than the 41 which goes up through Cramond, Davidson's Mains and at that point you might be faster walking the western part of the route. Still, one bus is better than none.

 

[stevenedin]

That’s a good point about the 2 and 12 it would provide links to the Gyle Centre which would be missed otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2022 ==

I do think that the 41 extension is still good and it kind of future proofs the 43 making it more viable. Now all we need is the 43 to be a Lothian bus and operated from Central.

 

[Mickcloud9]

I’m intrigued…? Why would you want it to be operated by Lothian? What’s wrong with the service Lothian Country offer? Bearing in mind they are part of the Lothian Group, what would be so beneficial…?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’m intrigued…? Why would u want it to be operated by Lothian? What’s wrong with the service Lothian Country offer? Bearing in mind they are part of the Lothian Group, what would be so beneficial…?

Probably because it would offer a flat fare. Which to be fair wouldn’t stop Lothiancountry from continuing to run it.

 

[mb88]

The rerouting of the 41 no doubt means the X43 will never return as the 43 is now the only bus along that section of the A90. It does concern me slightly that passengers going to Queensferry will struggle to get on now with all the people going to Clermiston Drive, Parkgrove Road etc. even ones going to Barnton will be more inclined to take the 43 now that the 41 will be taking such a circuitous route.

 

[stevenedin]

It would avoid a lot of dead mileage from Livingston to South Queensferry to run this. Also it is within Edinburgh so makes no sense that this is operated as a “country” service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2022 ==

The rerouting of the 41 no doubt means the X43 will never return as the 43 is now the only bus along that section of the A90. It does concern me slightly that passengers going to Queensferry will struggle to get on now with all the people going to Clermiston Drive, Parkgrove Road etc. even ones going to Barnton will be more inclined to take the 43 now that the 41 will be taking such a circuitous route.

It could also mean that they have a more frequent service as it gets busier the frequency will increase (hopefully) as there will be more demand.

 

[mb88]

It would avoid a lot of dead mileage from Livingston to South Queensferry to run this. Also it is within Edinburgh so makes no sense that this is operated as a “country” service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2022 ==


It could also mean that they have a more frequent service as it gets busier the frequency will increase (hopefully) as there will be more demand.

As well as the dead mileage you also have to consider the van workings 30 minutes each way for each and every relief.

That’s true I was forgetting it’s going from a 30 minute to a 20 minute service with additional peak journeys so presumably a 15 minute service at peak times as it was pre-Covid.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The rerouting of the 41 no doubt means the X43 will never return as the 43 is now the only bus along that section of the A90. It does concern me slightly that passengers going to Queensferry will struggle to get on now with all the people going to Clermiston Drive, Parkgrove Road etc. even ones going to Barnton will be more inclined to take the 43 now that the 41 will be taking such a circuitous route.

Somebody did suggest elsewhere about rerouting the 200 to serve Davidson’s Mains and then Drum Brae North - basically what the old 32 did. I can’t see how this would help much though…

A proper X43 (this would be an additional service rather than renumbered 43’s) would be a better solution. 43 route Regent Road to Learmonth Terrace, then only stopping at Craigleith, Blackhall, Barnton and then non stop/direct to Echline Corner - this would come off/go on the A90/M90 at Queensferry Junction rather than the bus lanes/gates, then from there follow the 63 route to Scotstoun. Could run maybe 2 or 3 times in each direction per weekday.

I’m ok with the 41 doing this new route for now but I am somewhat sceptical about the traffic levels, as I think it will only get held up in traffic even more than it does now.

Perhaps sending the 41 up Cramond Road South isn’t actually such a bad idea? But maybe it should have just done a one way loop round Cramond, have a layover and then head back down Cramond Road South towards King’s Buildings.

If you then do the above with the 43/X43 then that decreases journey times for most too. The 200 idea whilst it would keep the link between Queensferry Road and Davidson’s Mains but I’m not sure there’s a high enough level of demand to justify that, not to mention it’s well used in Drylaw too.

Lastly yes I do think that a new route via Maybury would’ve been better for Cammo, and it could’ve served the houses at Turnhouse when they’re done too.

Then finding a way to serve Whitehouse Road though is a bit tricky…

 

[overthewater]

Honestly I would of extended the 276 to the Gyle and maybe have one bus an hour extend that way from Broxburn like how one bus an hour extends from Loganlea to Bathgate, the 275 being cut seems haste, i would of looked for other alternatives to the route before considering giving it the chop, maybe this might be a good thing for the 276? Broxburn has the X18 for a direct fast service to Bathgate and Livingston has the 280 also so there’s plenty of options to changeover too!

It would be better if the 276 was extended to the Granton area: IE Broxburn - Kirkliston - Burnston Road - A90 - Davidson main - Granton - Leith.

I agree, i also think there needs to be more cohesion between services where they share corridors. Just look at the 37 and 47 for example, in most other cities these routes would be combined to some extent as different variations of the same service and would be timed consistently. Instead at present you have a 37 operating up to a 15 minute frequency and a 47 operating up to every 20 minutes.

Another example is the western legs of the 26 and 31, both routes operate every 12 minutes and are timed to provide a 6 minute frequency over the shared sections of route, this is really something that should be advertised, yet it isn't. In fact in the past i have found that lots of people don't even realise you can get the 31 to the Zoo!

I actually think both examples listed highlight cases where route branding could actually be very beneficial. I'm not saying they're perfect examples or how Lothian should follow but just look at what First Glasgow did with The One or the 38, they brought multiple existing routes under one brand that provide a consistent high frequency over a shared corridor.

This sounds like something they have done in Nottingham, over the past few years? I just can't see a whole scale review of Edinburgh network like the one from July 2003.

I do think that the 41 extension is still good and it kind of future proofs the 43 making it more viable. Now all we need is the 43 to be a Lothian bus and operated from Central.

Maybe within time the no41 will get extended down to the Gyle.

The rerouting of the 41 no doubt means the X43 will never return as the 43 is now the only bus along that section of the A90. It does concern me slightly that passengers going to Queensferry will struggle to get on now with all the people going to Clermiston Drive, Parkgrove Road etc. even ones going to Barnton will be more inclined to take the 43 now that the 41 will be taking such a circuitous route.

Passengers in South Queensferry are not being served that great by the 43, if you live in and around the Scotstoun area, it takes nearly an hour to get into the city. At least with the old Stagecoach 40/A it provided a much faster service for many parts of the ferry. Maybe they should make so the 43 stays at every 30mins and a new X43 also every 30mins comes into operation, the main difference being: A90 - comes off at the Bus lane onto the B800 - then does a circular - Echline park - The Loan - Scotstoun - back on to the A90 Bus lanes.

 

[Kilmux]

The rerouting of the 41 no doubt means the X43 will never return as the 43 is now the only bus along that section of the A90. It does concern me slightly that passengers going to Queensferry will struggle to get on now with all the people going to Clermiston Drive, Parkgrove Road etc. even ones going to Barnton will be more inclined to take the 43 now that the 41 will be taking such a circuitous route.

That works both ways. I can see problems for passengers on Q'ferry Road, City bound, getting on to full 43 services. Pre pandemic, a morning rush part route 41 from Barnton to Surgeons Hall was required.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Probably because it would offer a flat fare. Which to be fair wouldn’t stop Lothiancountry from continuing to run it.

I think if the 43 had a flat fare service then LCB would have to reconsider the CityWest zone as a whole which also covers Ratho Station and Dalmahoy, I doubt they’ll change it and I see it as a way to push Ridacards for regular travellers Although for the case of Dalmahoy it’s only two stops!

Somebody did suggest elsewhere about rerouting the 200 to serve Davidson’s Mains and then Drum Brae North - basically what the old 32 did. I can’t see how this would help much though…

I’m ok with the 41 doing this new route for now but I am somewhat sceptical about the traffic levels, as I think it will only get held up in traffic even more than it does now.

From the start I never understood why Lothian routed the 200 via clermiston as the 32 never ran that way and the entire route was meant to be an duplicate between Granton and Corstorphine!

With Queensferry Road losing the 41 this seemed like the perfect opportunity to reroute the 200 as the 21 can still cover the section between Quality Street and Drum Brae South, somehow I don’t see the point of them changing the route via Davidson Mains as it does give a handy connection with Blackhall.

I hope the 41 extension proves handy, and in time maybe we could see an extension to the Gyle, or as said above the 2 or 12 could extend to Cammo to provide Maybury Road the link and connection for onward travel!

That works both ways. I can see problems for passengers on Q'ferry Road, City bound, getting on to full 43 services. Pre pandemic, a morning rush part route 41 from Barnton to Surgeons Hall was required.

Maybe we can see more 43’s in the future if this proves to be more busy!

 

[ScotRail158725]

It would be better if the 276 was extended to the Granton area: IE Broxburn - Kirkliston - Burnston Road - A90 - Davidson main - Granton - Leith.

No, it really wouldn’t. With a route that long it creates more reliability issues than is necessary, especially with the amount of congestion prone areas that would pass. The fact there is next to no demand for such a route aswell

 

[overthewater]

The fact there is next to no demand for such a route aswell

Not true, the amount of car traffic which covers this route is dreadful. It's funny the places with the most congestion in Edinburgh are the parts where there is NO public transport links.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

No, it really wouldn’t. With a route that long it creates more reliability issues than is necessary, especially with the amount of congestion prone areas that would pass. The fact there is next to no demand for such a route aswell

I have to agree with this. The 630/631 between West Lothian and Leith was done by two operators in the past (Nordi and First) and ultimately failed in the longer term. Even the Stagecoach X50 (later 50) which connected Fife with Leith ultimately failed. The fact the SD Travel 16 runs twice a day with hardly anyone ever on it (in Edinburgh at least) tells you a lot, and that’s subsidised too.

It also would make the 276 way too long and as you say, unreliable. It would be easier just to do a new route altogether.

If you’re going to Livingston from North Edinburgh, it’s always going to be cheaper, quicker and easier to drive. I appreciate some don’t have this option and I am an advocate for public transport but this is one case where driving is definitely the easier option.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Information regarding service changes on 5 June 2022 is now available: https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2022/04/service-change-5-june-2022/

The revision of the 3 with all journeys going to Mayfield is a useful one, the 10 minute frequency still needs restored on this route as its always busy even at the best of times

The changes to the 10 & 16 make sense, i’ve never had the idea but its definitely one that works

I don’t think anyone can be surprised about the 22, it’s been coming for 11 years, the only surprising thing about that is the fact its not the whole route thats gone however, in its post june form i can see the 22 becoming a bit like the 12 where it just declines in use and just becomes a fresh air movement

Good to see the 30 back to every 10 minutes

The change to the 41 is a surprising one, i’m intrigued to see how the reliability copes with the change. Personally i think alternating 31s would’ve been a better way to serve Cammo/Turnhouse

With the 276 im surprised they’re still chopping and changing with routes in West Lothian, i think they need to settle down because constant chopping and changing will only invite people back over to first

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2022 ==

Not true, the amount of car traffic which covers this route is dreadful.

An extension of the 276 from Broxburn to Leith via the A90 and Granton is not the solution to a problem like this. All those areas have direct links to the City Centre which is the most important thing

It’s funny the places with the most congestion in Edinburgh are the parts where there is NO public transport links.

There isn’t anywhere in Edinburgh that doesn’t have a public transport link.

 

[overthewater]

I disagree. Lets just move on then.

 

[Lothianbus703]

Don't know if this has been confirmed anywhere (with a crystal ball ) or anybody has a theory but is the 22 going to be double decker or single?

 

[stevenedin]

I agree that Lothian Country need to stop changing routes in West Lothian so much and First also seem to have changed their 4 week ticket for Edinburgh and West Lothian to just £55 now so for regular travellers they are better off using First. I understand why Lothian Country are keeping their fares higher to allow them to remain viable but they do need to watch how they proceed from here on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2022 ==

Don't know if this has been confirmed anywhere (with a crystal ball ) or anybody has a theory but is the 22 going to be double decker or single?

It hasn’t been confirmed anywhere that I’ve heard but I imagine still double deckers as it is still busy on the west section.

 

[eh1]

It hasn’t been confirmed anywhere that I’ve heard but I imagine still double deckers as it is still busy on the west section.

There wouldn't be enough single decks to cover it, not from Central at least. Don't see why they'd switch off the current usual 400s.

 

[Busman757]

Agreed. There's also the case that Kirkliston (within the City of Edinburgh) currently has no Lothian services at all, while Loanhead (in Midlothian) which is a similar-ish size has the 37, 47 and 140. And other issues like (in regular times) Princes Street gets pretty much every single bus that goes to the city centre while Queen Street and the northern new town have very few buses in comparison.

In my opinion the entire transport network in the city needs a comprehensive and planned overhaul but that's another discussion.

I stay in Kirkliston and still wouldn’t give us a bus. We tried and they didn’t use it. Simples.

 

[Lothianbus703]

There wouldn't be enough single decks to cover it, not from Central at least. Don't see why they'd switch off the current usual 400s.

Yeah I was just wondering but I don't see why its current allocation wouldn't work.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

A large number of Volvo 7900s have been out of service for several months. Does anybody know if they will be reinstated once the changes come into effect from the 5th of June?

 

[ScotRail158725]

. Does anybody know if they
will be reinstated once the changes come into effect from the 5th of June.

Hopefully not

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A large number of Volvo 7900,s have been out of service for several months . Does anybody know if they
will be reinstated once the changes come into effect from the 5th of June.

Perhaps a few, but I doubt it would be them all.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Hopefully not

As controversial as this is, I wouldn't say they are too bad, other than 1-10, I find them rather comfortable and great buses and would happily see them return.

 

[ScotRail158725]

As controversial as this is, I wouldn't say they are too bad, other than 1-10, I find them rather comfortable and great buses and would happily see them return.

They are awful. slower than every other vehicle type in the fleet, extremely under capacity for the size of vehicle, and the seats are “comfartable” if the furniture in your house was made of granite