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What tech is used to work out ticket prices?

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thedbdiboy

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Wrong they are bound by competition law just as any other 'undertaking' when carrying out 'economic activity'. I was involved with a Dept For education scheme which fell foul of this.
I don't think that's quite accurate either, because, for example, introducing Pay-As-You-Go pricing is both an economic activity and something that the DfT is allowed to direct. I think (but let those more legally acquainted step in) that they are bound by the law but the law gives the Government some additional rights. Whilst I can't speak for education, the issue is undoubtedly complex and is why TOCs will not of their own volition discuss fares with each other, regardless of their ownership.
 
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tomuk

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If all TOCs are going to be run by the government directly, then what exactly is the point of them remaining carved up into different operating sectors, when they can all be merged back into a single large one with many strategic efficiency benefits.
What strategic efficiency benefits? Any economies of scale ie merging toc depots will be soon outweighed by the usual 'at cost' complacency of the public sector. BR introduced sectors to make the organisation more manageable rather then one amorphous blob.
 

Dai Corner

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What strategic efficiency benefits? Any economies of scale ie merging toc depots will be soon outweighed by the usual 'at cost' complacency of the public sector. BR introduced sectors to make the organisation more manageable rather then one amorphous blob.
Before sectors, didn't BR have regions, divisions and areas? I'm not sure whether regions felt they were in competition with each other as their predecessor companies were?
 

tomuk

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Before sectors, didn't BR have regions, divisions and areas? I'm not sure whether regions felt they were in competition with each other as their predecessor companies were?
Although the regions weren't in competition with each other, particularly after beeching removed a lot of duplicated routes, I'm sure rivalries continued particularly on the WMCL and ECML.
 

507020

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My point is that they would not have chosen to collude on it to make the situation more transparent. Why would they, other than to agree to both hold higher prices. They had no economic interest in colluding for good purposes. Also, the problem is not with competition law but with the way the system was set up with some regulated and some unregulated fares. Had all fares been regulated the transparency could have been secured at a national level.
The fares structure requires total reform, but there are many problems caused by EU competition law e.g. bank closures because “competing” banks are unable to share or pool public facing branch facilities for the benefit of customers, while continuing to offer separate products and service. The Network Rail owned infrastructure is effectively pooled and shared between all TOCs, which seems to contradict this.
What strategic efficiency benefits? Any economies of scale ie merging toc depots will be soon outweighed by the usual 'at cost' complacency of the public sector. BR introduced sectors to make the organisation more manageable rather then one amorphous blob.
It may be more effective to have a separate national InterCity operator, but BR was the most efficient railway in Europe and Network SouthEast had a single commuter railway into London. It should be brought back and could be put under the control of TfL, rather than having a separate TOC operate all services out of each London terminus and rather than an amorphous blob of the remaining Regional Railways, a local operator of the same calibre as NSE could provide local services in other cities or areas, retaining ScotRail and TfW, but banning them from running any services entirely within England e.g. Chester - Birmingham or Carlisle - Newcastle. Where these operators run between areas they would have to be joint services, with the advantage being the unified approach to everything with several brands all being part of the same organisation, without the confusion caused for passengers and staff by having so many TOCs all with different terms and conditions. For example, as a blanket policy, bikes should be allowed to be carried on all services at all times, but rather, it varies wildly between different TOCs requiring passengers to check the rules for each one.
Before sectors, didn't BR have regions, divisions and areas? I'm not sure whether regions felt they were in competition with each other as their predecessor companies were?
Yes but other than the Scottish and North Eastern regions, they radiated out from London in different directions, as the present TOCs do but there were only 4 of them, which is not the optimal way to do it. There was a great deal of resentment from the Western Region when it was told it could no longer be great following nationalisation and even more when it had HSTs, originating from another region, imposed on it to replace its own Western Diesel hydraulics. A member of the former GWR Swindon Works staff, who lost his job when Thatcher closed it in 1985, questioned why the original railway works in different regions of the country were not able to compete against each other for manufacturing and maintenance contracts, rather than involving foreign manufactures to compete against BREL as a whole. If a HST broke down anywhere on the Western Region, even if it was directly outside Swindon Works, it would have to be hauled all the way to Crewe or Derby because Swindon were not allowed to repair it.
 

skyhigh

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The fares structure requires total reform, but there are many problems caused by EU competition law e.g. bank closures because “competing” banks are unable to share or pool public facing branch facilities for the benefit of customers, while continuing to offer separate products and service.
Really? How does this work then?

Trials of shared banking hubs in two communities where all the branches have closed down are to be extended... The trials allow a member of staff from a different bank to come into the hub once a week to help with trickier transactions.

Throughout the week, the counter service and machines allow individuals and small business owners to access accounts, and to withdraw and deposit notes and coins.
BBC News - Trials of shared banking hubs to be extended
 

507020

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Really? How does this work then?


BBC News - Trials of shared banking hubs to be extended
I was not aware that these existed, but I am glad that they have seen sense since these are exactly what is needed, however there should not have been an intervening period where banking services were not available at all and I note that:
1. These only came into existence following Brexit
2. They are owned by the Post Office, with members of bank staff visiting, rather than being jointly owned by several banks and
3. Customers of different banks are not able to use these facilities simultaneously
 

Dai Corner

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I was not aware that these existed, but I am glad that they have seen sense since these are exactly what is needed, however there should not have been an intervening period where banking services were not available at all and I note that:
1. These only came into existence following Brexit
2. They are owned by the Post Office, with members of bank staff visiting, rather than being jointly owned by several banks and
3. Customers of different banks are not able to use these facilities simultaneously
Whereas TOCs share stations and freely sell each other's products. They're even obliged to help each other's customers in the event of delays or being stranded.
 

takno

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I was not aware that these existed, but I am glad that they have seen sense since these are exactly what is needed, however there should not have been an intervening period where banking services were not available at all and I note that:
1. These only came into existence following Brexit
2. They are owned by the Post Office, with members of bank staff visiting, rather than being jointly owned by several banks and
3. Customers of different banks are not able to use these facilities simultaneously
Weren't you complaining earlier on that we hadn't got rid of these evil EU laws? If not how come we can do these shared banking hubs which apparently were impossible before?
 

tomuk

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These banking hubs seem a like more 'innovation' nonsense. In the case of the Rochford trial all the major banks are available on Southend High Street 15 mins away plus there are loads of ATMs in the area and supermarkets with cash back. Plus you can also do basic banking at every post office with a number of leading banks.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this is a fares policy thread, thanks :)

Speculative discussion should take place exclusively in the Speculative Discussion forum section, while banking discussion is best placed in General Discussion.

Some posts have been moved to the following thread:


Many thanks
:)
 
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miklcct

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ORCATS is an industry system the agreements are with the TOC and RDG/DfT not each other. Our pricing managers over the years have been very aware of the fact that they can't talk about fares with other TOCs.
So in this case a TOC can use its knowledge of the routeing guide to undercut other operator's fare without the other operator noticing, right?

For example, a major flow A-B is set by SWR, and a minor flow A-D, with the majority of travel on Southern and set by Southern but with validity through B, then Southern can deliberately set a low price on this flow in order to undercut SWR's revenue between A-B and takes the majority of fare on the A-D tickets sold, such that SWR receives nearly nothing on those tickets, right?
 
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