Inspection of Railcards - Often cursory and implications on liability?

[Titfield]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #9 originally in this thread.

You have to bear in mind that you had only one railcard to check on the day, and plenty of time, while the staff had lots to look at for a matter of a couple of seconds each. In the latter situation mistakes are easily explained.

but if the TOC has no liability as a result of failing to notice the railcard was out of date, what is the point in their checking the card at all?

 

[jon0844]

but if the TOC has no liability as a result of failing to notice the railcard was out of date, what is the point in their checking the card at all?

Are they required to check at all? You could be buying a ticket for someone else and I know people have complained about being asked to show a railcard (or carry the railcard of the actual intended user) in the past.

You could be asked if you have the railcard and maybe show it, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily checked thoroughly - especially if a finger is unintentionally covering part of it, or the hand isn't held steady.

I really don't think it not being noticed at the time of sale is going to be much of a defence. A TVM or app certainly doesn't make a check.

 

[Titfield]

Are they required to check at all? You could be buying a ticket for someone else and I know people have complained about being asked to show a railcard (or carry the railcard of the actual intended user) in the past.

You could be asked if you have the railcard and maybe show it, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily checked thoroughly - especially if a finger is unintentionally covering part of it, or the hand isn't held steady.

I really don't think it not being noticed at the time of sale is going to be much of a defence. A TVM or app certainly doesn't make a check.

The Ts and Cs of the Railcards says "You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets.". My point is why ask to see a railcard if you are not actually going to check it properly?

I have not suggested that it would be a defence as quite clearly it is not, as the issue is traveling with an invalid ticket by virtue of it requiring a valid railcard which the OP did not possess.

The point I was making is that the TOC may not wish the issue of the ticket office not checking the railcard thoroughly to be presented in open court as it could then become known to a much wider "audience" which damages the reputation of the TOC though to what extent is debatable. There would be nothing to stop the OP in Court getting his / her barrister to call the ticket clerk as a witness and ask questions as to their checking of the railcard. This is all "aggro" as far as the TOC is concerned. Whoever at the TOC decides whether to offer and accept an out of court settlement or go to prosecute would undoubtedly go for slam dunk cases. In the instant case if witnesses end up being called it all takes time and money. The sensible course for the TOC to take would simply be to offer an out of court settlement.

 

[jon0844]

In my experience, I have never had my railcards examined closely and usually just waving it from a distance is sufficient for them to believe I have one. Given you can buy a ticket from many other means without having to show anything at all, it makes me wonder why they even ask - but it is probably just to make sure people are aware they need one.

If you're buying a ticket for a future date, it seems even less necessary as you could say it is at home - and does that mean they can't sell you one now?

I really do not think there would be embarrassment if it was mentioned in court as a defence, which of course people are free to try (and it makes sense as it might just work).

As it happens, they'd seek to settle out of court because they get more money but the point still stands.

 

[Wethebest838]

In my experience, I have never had my railcards examined closely and usually just waving it from a distance is sufficient for them to believe I have one.

This. I’ve travelled for years every day and I have never once had my railcard examined up close. Literally it’s just “yep thank you” at a glance.

 

[Wolfie]

Are they required to check at all? You could be buying a ticket for someone else and I know people have complained about being asked to show a railcard (or carry the railcard of the actual intended user) in the past.

You could be asked if you have the railcard and maybe show it, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily checked thoroughly - especially if a finger is unintentionally covering part of it, or the hand isn't held steady.

I really don't think it not being noticed at the time of sale is going to be much of a defence. A TVM or app certainly doesn't make a check.

I agree. If someone buys a ticket online and ticks a Railcard box the date of said card isn't checked. It would be nice if ticket office staff notice but they, unlike the Railcard holder, are not contractually obliged to ensure that it is in date.

 

[Titfield]

Interesting points of view and I take on board the point about online and TVM sales having no independent rail card verification.

One final thought though, if ticket office staff are not required to check railcards etc then it further advances the argument that the need for ticket offices is increasingly diminishing and the facility may as well be withdrawn.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

This. I’ve travelled for years every day and I have never once had my railcard examined up close. Literally it’s just “yep thank you” at a glance.

Probably in danger of going off-topic, but I can say that when I used to use the booking office at Wolverhampton station (when it was run by Virgin, prior to the recent rebuild in which more TVMs were installed) they used to actually take my "Two Together" railcard off me under the counter to closely examine it... so it isn't always just a quick flash of the card.

 

[ainsworth74]

but I can say that when I used to use the booking office at Wolverhampton station (when it was run by Virgin, prior to the recent rebuild in which more TVMs were installed) they used to actually take my "Two Together" railcard off me under the counter to closely examine it... so it isn't always just a quick flash of the card.

Perhaps that was just you they felt the need to closely examine the railcard of...

 

[BluePenguin]

Perhaps that was just you they felt the need to closely examine the railcard of...

Who ever they, their cousin must work at the ticket office in Dover Priory. Most obnoxious woman will demand and take the railcard from under window and stare at it up close for a good 20 seconds before throwing it back under again, almost disappointed to find it valid and still in date

 

[Towers]

I'd agree that where a discounted ticket is sold by a human, whether that be on board or at a ticket office, the Railcard should quite obviously be checked at the point of sale. If someone has time to issue tickets, then they have time to request and check any supporting documents.

 

[507020]

I'd agree that where a discounted ticket is sold by a human, whether that be on board or at a ticket office, the Railcard should quite obviously be checked at the point of sale. If someone has time to issue tickets, then they have time to request and check any supporting documents.

But what if you are purchasing a discounted ticket from a human on behalf of a Railcard holder who does not have time or is otherwise less able to buy their own, who is not in possession of one themselves. Could it be checked that they take a future dated ticket home with them or at least leave the station with it and do not board a train?

 

[Towers]

But what if you are purchasing a discounted ticket from a human on behalf of a Railcard holder who does not have time or is otherwise less able to buy their own, who is not in possession of one themselves. Could it be checked that they take a future dated ticket home with them or at least leave the station with it and do not board a train?

In an ideal world, in these instances the Railcard holder could perhaps apply for a card allowing others to purchase on their behalf, on production of the Railcard. In all other instances a discounted ticket would only be available to the named Railcard holder.

In reality, grey area!!

 

[507020]

In an ideal world, in these instances the Railcard holder could perhaps apply for a card allowing others to purchase on their behalf, on production of the Railcard. In all other instances a discounted ticket would only be available to the named Railcard holder.

In reality, grey area!!

In an ideal world, this would be unnecessary because passengers would be able to purchase discounted tickets and have them validated without the need for an additional physical (or digital) card, or any sort of bionic implants! Perhaps simply all rail fares would be cheaper…

 

[davews]

The ticket clerks at my local station know me and that I have a senior rail card so I don't even have to mention it (yes, they do occasionally ask and I usually flip my wallet open to quickly show it). When ticket checked on train I make a point of showing it and sometimes even get thanked for doing so.

 

[subk2010]

Who ever they, their cousin must work at the ticket office in Dover Priory. Most obnoxious woman will demand and take the railcard from under window and stare at it up close for a good 20 seconds before throwing it back under again, almost disappointed to find it valid and still in date

Probably this is one good point of e-railcard. Too hard to forge so showing them the code in APP may save time when buying tickets at the ticket office.