Southern May 2022 timetable change

[PGAT]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #5 originally in this thread.

Southern have released some new information a few days ago about the new timetable information. The finalised timetable won't come out until 29 April, but the basics are on the website.

• Brighton-Southampton Central/Portsmouth Harbour services are no longer terminating at Chichester
• 2tph will run at alot of times between Brighton-Hastings with 1tph being extended to Ore
• London Bridge-Beckenham Junction services will be 1tph off peak, and 2tph peak
• The Clapham Junction to Watford Junction service is returning
• The additional 2tph between London Victoria and Sutton will not run on Saturdays
• West Worthing-Brighton services will not run
• Lewes-Brighton services will not run
• London Bridge-London Victoria services will not run anymore at all

Here's the link: https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

 

[JonathanH]

I guess some of that helps displace 377s to take the place of 455s.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Well. Looking at this timetable change. I would say that yes it sounds about right but here are a few changes I would like to see is that London Bridge to Epsom and returns off-peak reduced from 10 coaches to 8 coaches but back to 10 coaches at peak times. The same from London Victoria to West Croydon off-peak 8 coaches but 10 coaches peak times. Also, I think it is right to withdraw Lewes to Brighton services and Brighton to West Worthing services, and also, I think that reducing the extra service from Sutton to London Victoria will be temporary as Southern wait for the extra rolling stock.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern wait for the extra rolling stock

There isn't any extra rolling stock coming to replace the 455s. The extra 377s are to directly replace 313s later in the year.

I would like to see is that London Bridge to Epsom and returns off-peak reduced from 10 coaches to 8 coaches but back to 10 coaches at peak times. The same from London Victoria to West Croydon off-peak 8 coaches but 10 coaches peak times.

That is quite difficult as you would have to find another route to operate the 10-car trains on during the off peak. Easier to keep formations constant all day.

 

[PGAT]

There isn't any extra rolling stock coming to replace the 455s. The extra 377s are to directly replace 313s later in the year.


That is quite difficult as you would have to find another route to operate the 10-car trains on during the off peak. Easier to keep formations constant all day.

Off peak it isn’t hard to find an empty carriage on these routes, but during the peak (especially the morning peak) these services can be horribly overcrowded (especially the Epsom-London Bridge). I think a better option would be to make all the East Grinstead services 10 coaches instead of 12.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #5 originally in this thread.

Southern have released some new information a few days ago about the new timetable information. The finalised timetable won't come out until 29 April, but the basics are on the website.

• Brighton-Southampton Central/Portsmouth Harbour services are no longer terminating at Chichester
• 2tph will run at alot of times between Brighton-Hastings with 1tph being extended to Ore
• London Bridge-Beckenham Junction services will be 1tph off peak, and 2tph peak
• The Clapham Junction to Watford Junction service is returning
• The additional 2tph between London Victoria and Sutton will not run on Saturdays
• West Worthing-Brighton services will not run
• Lewes-Brighton services will not run
• London Bridge-London Victoria services will not run anymore at all

Here's the link: https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

London Bridge-London Victoria services shown M-F not running Saturdays

 

[Stephen42]

London Bridge-London Victoria services shown M-F not running Saturdays

I can only see 0928 and 2258 London Bridge to Victoria plus 0750 and 0820 Victoria to London Bridge. The rest are 'runs as required' and unless something major changes won't normally run.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I can only see 0928 and 2258 London Bridge to Victoria plus 0750 and 0820 Victoria to London Bridge. The rest are 'runs as required' and unless something major changes won't normally run.

On Southerns website from above it was only shown under Saturdays as not running but looking at the detailed page on RTT I see where your coming from. Going to have watch out for all these Q paths that don't show up as such in simple overview.

 

[Tomp94]

If the Brighton to West Worthing trains aren't running, I presume this means the Southampton and Portsmouth trains will not only be absolutely rammed east of Chichester, but one or both services will also call everywhere east of Chichester to make up for the west worthing stoppers.

 

[JonathanH]

If the Brighton to West Worthing trains aren't running, I presume this means the Southampton and Portsmouth trains will not only be absolutely rammed east of Chichester, but one or both services will also call everywhere east of Chichester to make up for the west worthing stoppers.

Aldrington and Fishersgate reduce to 1tph. Aldrington stops in the Portsmouth train and Fishersgate calls in the Southampton train.

West Worthing, Durrington-on-Sea, Goring-by-Sea and Ford are missed out by most Portsmouth trains.

Otherwise, yes, all stops in both services.

The Portsmouth train calls at Southbourne which evens up the timings slightly at Havant.

 

[Bishopstone]

A facet of the May timetable is that, for most of the day, there are no direct services between Fishersgate and Aldrington. As both stations are in well populated areas of the Brighton conurbation, with significant local employment, it’s reasonable to assume there is (was?) some traffic between this pair, albeit not vast.

If you wish to travel between Fishersgate and Aldrington around the top of each hour, Journey Planner suggests you take a train to Hove (passing through Aldrington en route); then a second train back to Shoreham (passing through Aldrington again!), and finally a third train which actually stops at Aldrington. Cheekily, the site even suggests you should buy more than one ticket for this inconvenient itinerary. The culled West Worthing stoppers connected this pair twice per hour.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

An interesting thing is that the London Victoria - Sutton via Selhurst services still run on Sunday, and the London bridge - Crystal Palace via Sydenham services also run Sunday, so for some metro stations, the best service they have is on a Sunday.

 

[weeklycommuter]

A facet of the May timetable is that, for most of the day, there are no direct services between Fishersgate and Aldrington. As both stations are in well populated areas of the Brighton conurbation, with significant local employment, it’s reasonable to assume there is (was?) some traffic between this pair, albeit not vast.

If you wish to travel between Fishersgate and Aldrington around the top of each hour, Journey Planner suggests you take a train to Hove (passing through Aldrington en route); then a second train back to Shoreham (passing through Aldrington again!), and finally a third train which actually stops at Aldrington. Cheekily, the site even suggests you should buy more than one ticket for this inconvenient itinerary. The culled West Worthing stoppers connected this pair twice per hour.

Just 15 minutes walk between Hove Station and the underpass next to Aldrington Station. Would you not just travel to Hove Station instead?

 

[PedroHav]

Basically the Coastway West is reduced overall. Surely the lack of West Worthing - Brighton services will increase pressure on the Southampton/Portsmouth - Brighton services which already get crowded at times.
Equally the removal of those services must open up some platform space. If Southern cannot use it then maybe someone else can. Perhaps the old South West trains service from Basingstoke, linking up with Cross Country trains from the north, could province a well need semi fast service asking the coast. And it would be all electric to please the DpT.
But then South Western have their own rolling stock shortage problems ....

 

[cle]

It seems crazy to me that 1tph West Worthing isn't able to be run, at least. And 1tph to Lewes on the other side - even if the 2tph services genuinely, truly cannot be run. Which I'm starting to doubt.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Victoria to London Bridge train will be missed, it was a handy link between the inner suburban areas of Southeast and Southwest London, but at least one can change at Crystal Palace if they need to make such a journey, not really surprised at the Beckenham service being reduced to 1tph though it is another handy link in South London.

 

[JonathanH]

If Southern cannot use it then maybe someone else can. Perhaps the old South West trains service from Basingstoke, linking up with Cross Country trains from the north, could province a well need semi fast service asking the coast. And it would be all electric to please the DpT.

That completely misses the point of why the services are being cut. Every train that runs on the Coastway route is likely to lose money so by cutting services the operational costs are reduced. The operators and DfT are hardly going to agree to additional services running.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

There isn't any extra rolling stock coming to replace the 455s. The extra 377s are to directly replace 313s later in the year.

Are these by any chance the 377/5s coming from Southeastern?

If yes, are the Southeastern 377/5s being replaced by 707s?

 

[43074]

That completely misses the point of why the services are being cut. Every train that runs on the Coastway route is likely to lose money so by cutting services the operational costs are reduced. The operators and DfT are hardly going to agree to additional services running.

Revenue is also down as the service is less attractive and fewer people are traveling so it is a vicious cycle. Shame as the pre Covid service was an attractive proposition which has been well and truly diluted by the service cuts.

 

[JonathanH]

Shame as the pre Covid service was an attractive proposition which has been well and truly diluted by the service cuts.

Yes, I agree. It is a shame but I guess the provision of frequent services on the West Coastway used to be cross subsidised by more lucrative operations elsewhere that are no longer generating as much revenue.

 

[30907]

The Victoria to London Bridge train will be missed, it was a handy link between the inner suburban areas of Southeast and Southwest London, but at least one can change at Crystal Palace if they need to make such a journey, not really surprised at the Beckenham service being reduced to 1tph though it is another handy link in South London.

Only every 90min off peak SX currently.

 

[Kite159]

Just 15 minutes walk between Hove Station and the underpass next to Aldrington Station. Would you not just travel to Hove Station instead?

Hove has ticket barriers, Aldrington doesn't

Same for Fishersgate compared to Portslade (which are another pair of stations within 15 minutes walk of each other).

 

[PedroHav]

That completely misses the point of why the services are being cut. Every train that runs on the Coastway route is likely to lose money so by cutting services the operational costs are reduced. The operators and DfT are hardly going to agree to additional services running.

In my experience the trains on the Chichester - Havant - Cosham - Fareham - Southampton route are pretty busy these days. I've seen standing on many occasions. To suggest that the Coastway route is likely to lose money my not be the case. Additional services with differing connection points and faster journey times may actually increase passenger numbers.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

That completely misses the point of why the services are being cut. Every train that runs on the Coastway route is likely to lose money so by cutting services the operational costs are reduced. The operators and DfT are hardly going to agree to additional services running.

To be fair, while I do agree with you that most trains are on the coastway route are porbably likely to lose money, do you actually have any evidence to back up your claim that that is the case.

 

[miklcct]

Doesn't the Clapham Junction - Watford Junction route overlap with London Overground completely?

 

[Watershed]

Doesn't the Clapham Junction - Watford Junction route overlap with London Overground completely?

In terms of the overall stations served, yes. But it is considerably quicker than the London Overground option, if there is a Southern service due. It does only have a limited value as a service terminating at Watford Junction, and so I'd see this as the beginning of the end of this service.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

In terms of the overall stations served, yes. But it is considerably quicker than the London Overground option, if there is a Southern service due. It does only have a limited value as a service terminating at Watford Junction, and so I'd see this as the beginning of the end of this service.

Wouldn't be so sure about your last point. Wait until September comes along and you might change your mind.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don’t think the West London line will ever be withdrawn completely, this is just the latest in a long line of reshuffles for the line.

First it was a major Inter-City Cross-Country route from Brighton to Scotland, then a “second inter-urban Thameslink” from Brighton to Rugby, then the more metro Croydon to Milton Keynes.

Now it’s current form of Clapham to Watford it’s essentially an express London Overground line (if ever it gets taken over by LO, they should call this the Junction line as both terminating stations have junction in their names )

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I don’t think the West London line will ever be withdrawn completely, this is just the latest in a long line of reshuffles for the line.

First it was a major Inter-City Cross-Country route from Brighton to Scotland, then a “second inter-urban Thameslink” from Brighton to Rugby, then the more metro Croydon to Milton Keynes.

Now it’s current form of Clapham to Watford it’s essentially an express London Overground line (if ever it gets taken over by LO, they should call this the Junction line as both terminating stations have junction in their names )

But it won't be Clapham to Watford for much longer.

Plus there is a seperate issue at the minute where the points from Clapham Junction Platform 17 to the Brighton Main Line have been ran through meaning no trains coming from the WLL can access the Brighton Main Line.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesn't the Clapham Junction - Watford Junction route overlap with London Overground completely?

Theres a slight problem that there’s no interchange at Willesden Junction, because that station has no platforms on the route taken by the SN service. The SN service also cannot call at many of the stations the DC lines pass through.