Debt collection department

[yiannachristou]

Just before Christmas I travelled from Hartlepool to MetroCentre. The Computer system was down at Hartlepool, so I went to pay for my ticket with my card but it was declined... no special reason just their system, as I did have money in the account. I posted the cheque to the debt department but the amount has still not gone through my account.
I am worried because I am unemployed and would not be able to pay any extra fees, especially as it is not my fault that payment wasn't taken within 7 working days.
How can I contact the department to find out what is going on? Is there a direct telephone number for them?
I have asked at the station and they gave me the address but I would rather telephone and speak to someone.

Thank you

 

[Darandio]

Why did you not pay on the train?

 

[wintonian]

Did you have any other cards of cash or even your cheque book with a guarantee card with you at the time?

 

[cuccir]

Just before Christmas I travelled from Hartlepool to MetroCentre. The Computer system was down at Hartlepool, so I went to pay for my ticket with my card but it was declined... no special reason just their system, as I did have money in the account. I posted the cheque to the debt department but the amount has still not gone through my account.
I am worried because I am unemployed and would not be able to pay any extra fees, especially as it is not my fault that payment wasn't taken within 7 working days.
How can I contact the department to find out what is going on? Is there a direct telephone number for them?
I have asked at the station and they gave me the address but I would rather telephone and speak to someone.

Thank you

We'll need specific information to tell you in more detail what's going on - when exactly you travelled, what communication you've had with Northern (I presume its Northern!) since, and what options the guard gave you when your card was rejected. Did you use that card elsewhere that day?

For the cheque - remember that it can take 5 working days for the money to leave your account. When did you post it?

 

[Max]

I suspect what the OP is trying to say is that there were problems with the systems in the ticket office at Hartlepool so they were forced to try and buy on board using a card. However, there is a well known (to TOCs) glitch that means that some types of debit card are always declined on the chip and pin systems used on board trains. I assume an unpaid fares notice was issued and that the passenger has since sent a cheque away to pay off the debt. Note that these are just assumptions based on what has been said!

If the above is the case, my advice would be to contact Northern Customer Relations to check that the money has been received. If they can't tell you, I'm sure they'll be able to give you the right number. The number is 0845 000 0125 .

 

[Greenback]

They may well be correct assumptions! There is a lack of information in the original post, but to be fair, the only question asked was whether anyone has a phone number! There's no request for help to fight a penalty fare or anything like that!

 

[Ferret]

They may well be correct assumptions! There is a lack of information in the original post, but to be fair, the only question asked was whether anyone has a phone number! There's no request for help to fight a penalty fare or anything like that!

I suspect it's a UFN anyway. Mind you, that would have a phone number on it.......

 

[Greenback]

Maybe he lost it!

 

[Darandio]

Maybe he is a she!

 

[Greenback]

Maybe! I normally write s/he, but I missed the 's'. oops, sorry!

 

[Ferret]

Maybe he lost it!

In which case how would they know how much money to send?!

 

[Greenback]

Er, maybe they sent the cheque, had a spring clean, and accidentally threw the UPFN away?

I don't know really! It just shows the futility of all assumptions! All we can do is answer the question asked, which is: No, I don't have a phone number for the debt collection dept!

 

[mumrar]

Whilst the 'glitch' with onboard and Debit cards is well known, it doesn't mean a UFN has to be issued. XC issued me, and one would presume my colleagues too, a card with phone number and merchant number to manually authorise through the clearing house systems. 9 times out of 10 it is no problem.

May I add some guesswork of my own. I think that a lot of banks are putting insistance on transactions for some debit cards only authorising at a 'live' connected chip and pin terminal. This would be what results in the decline and subsequent successful manual authorisation.

Also, you should see the face on the 1 in 10 who think you'll just swipe the card when you get your phone out. They know full well it isn't going to work but try and save face saying things like 'the guard doesn't usually ring up' or, when declined 'why, I know there's money in the account?'.

 

[Ferret]

Er, maybe they sent the cheque, had a spring clean, and accidentally threw the UPFN away?

I don't know really! It just shows the futility of all assumptions! All we can do is answer the question asked, which is: No, I don't have a phone number for the debt collection dept!

It isn't spring yet!

Got to agree though - we quite often end up having to make assumptions because people don't give enough info. I really wish people would tell us as much as they can about the problem when they ask for advice and help on here.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Whilst the 'glitch' with onboard and Debit cards is well known, it doesn't mean a UFN has to be issued. XC issued me, and one would presume my colleagues too, a card with phone number and merchant number to manually authorise through the clearing house systems. 9 times out of 10 it is no problem.

May I add some guesswork of my own. I think that a lot of banks are putting insistance on transactions for some debit cards only authorising at a 'live' connected chip and pin terminal. This would be what results in the decline and subsequent successful manual authorisation.

Also, you should see the face on the 1 in 10 who think you'll just swipe the card when you get your phone out. They know full well it isn't going to work but try and save face saying things like 'the guard doesn't usually ring up' or, when declined 'why, I know there's money in the account?'.

Yes I had that the other day. Card declined on chip. "Oh you'll have to swipe it, it doesn't work on the trains for some reason". Ok, says I. I'll just get authorisation, and pull my phone out. Look of horror then appears on passengers face. Lo and behold, HSBC Authorisation centre said No. "Oh but there is loads of money on the account, I've just checked". In that case, why has the card been declined by the authorisation centre. This normally results in me doing a TIR for Revenue to consider, as I judge that they must know that they have no money before they get on and therefore were trying to get away with it.

But, in all seriousness, the reason cards are declined is because certain banks lock the chips on certain card types or people so that they will not work for "offline" transactions. Paying on train is an offline transaction as no authorisation is automatically gained at the time, unlike in most other shops for example. A chip is set to one of two things - authorise offline transactions to a certain value (this is programmed in the card chip and may be £20, £50, £100 or more depending on card type and whether the bank likes you) or decline all offline transactions at all times. The latter scenario will require us to phone up the automated service to get authorisation.

As mumrar says, 9 times out of 10 this works and the card is authorised straight away.

 

[Ferret]

Yes I had that the other day. Card declined on chip. "Oh you'll have to swipe it, it doesn't work on the trains for some reason". Ok, says I. I'll just get authorisation, and pull my phone out. Look of horror then appears on passengers face. Lo and behold, HSBC Authorisation centre said No. "Oh but there is loads of money on the account, I've just checked". In that case, why has the card been declined by the authorisation centre. This normally results in me doing a TIR for Revenue to consider, as I judge that they must know that they have no money before they get on and therefore were trying to get away with it.

But, in all seriousness, the reason cards are declined is because certain banks lock the chips on certain card types or people so that they will not work for "offline" transactions. Paying on train is an offline transaction as no authorisation is automatically gained at the time, unlike in most other shops for example. A chip is set to one of two things - authorise offline transactions to a certain value (this is programmed in the card chip and may be £20, £50, £100 or more depending on card type and whether the bank likes you) or decline all offline transactions at all times. The latter scenario will require us to phone up the automated service to get authorisation.

As mumrar says, 9 times out of 10 this works and the card is authorised straight away.

I love the ones that say to you 'can you just swipe it?' - all of a sudden the alarm bells ring! If it's declined when I ring up HSBC, that's a TIR...

 

[wintonian]

Yes I had that the other day. Card declined on chip. "Oh you'll have to swipe it, it doesn't work on the trains for some reason". Ok, says I. I'll just get authorisation, and pull my phone out. Look of horror then appears on passengers face. Lo and behold, HSBC Authorisation centre said No. "Oh but there is loads of money on the account, I've just checked". In that case, why has the card been declined by the authorisation centre. This normally results in me doing a TIR for Revenue to consider, as I judge that they must know that they have no money before they get on and therefore were trying to get away with it.

But, in all seriousness, the reason cards are declined is because certain banks lock the chips on certain card types or people so that they will not work for "offline" transactions. Paying on train is an offline transaction as no authorisation is automatically gained at the time, unlike in most other shops for example. A chip is set to one of two things - authorise offline transactions to a certain value (this is programmed in the card chip and may be £20, £50, £100 or more depending on card type and whether the bank likes you) or decline all offline transactions at all times. The latter scenario will require us to phone up the automated service to get authorisation.

As mumrar says, 9 times out of 10 this works and the card is authorised straight away.

Generally Electron, Solo, and non-full authorisation Visa debit cards.

These cards normally are provided with 'basic bank accounts' i.e. ones where you don't need to do a credit check to apply or you have failed the credit check so the bank can't offer you a full account or the holder is under 18 in which case they can't do a credit check as they can't apply for credit.

Yes the OP was quite specific with their request, but I think were so used to seeing requests for advice about the validity and circumstances regarding the UPFN or PF that all related topics are (without thinking) treated as such.

 

[Mojo]

Heard also that Lloyds TSB cards are problematic despite being "normal" Visa debit cards.

 

[wintonian]

I know there are issues sometimes when a new card/ account comes out and not all the processing systems have updated there systems. I think there was an example a little while ago where a new pre-paid MasterCard came out and some retailers were treating it as a credit card and charging it the (in)appropriate credit card surcharge.

 

[Ferret]

I love the ones that say to you 'can you just swipe it?' - all of a sudden the alarm bells ring! If it's declined when I ring up HSBC, that's a TIR...

I do not chuffing believe it! I was sat on my PNB when I posted that, and now I'm working back to base, I have a 'ooh, my card always comes back declined, just swipe it - it'll be fine'. Well, guess what, the bank authorisation service thinks otherwise! Guess that's me sat on the PC at work tomorrow scribbling out another TIR then! All for a four quid fare as well!

 

[island]

Working for a bank I can confirm most of what has been said in the thread to date:

• All Visa Electron and Solo cards must be authorized online at all times. This is why railways officially don't accept Visa Electron or Solo cards.
• Some other cards (primarily Visa debit and prepaid cards) are programmed at chip level (and also have a code called service code X2X on their magstripe) saying that offline transactions are not allowed.
• The latter category can be overridden on card terminals, but if the merchant does this, there's no guarantee they'll be paid.
• The chip can be programmed to allow offline transactions to a certain limit, before going online.
• All merchants have a limit for transactions that can be done offline, called the floor limit. The default floor limit is £0, but trusted merchants (such as supermarkets) can have a higher floor limit for chip & PIN transactions, and certain merchants (such as TOCs) can have a higher limit for magstripe transactions as well.
• The card type of a card is identified by its first six digits (called BIN, or Bank Identification Number, but one bank can have piles of BINs if it wants to), and lists are published a couple of times a year defining what class of card a certain number means. As new types of card come out all the time, in the interim if an unrecognized BIN shows up then most card terminals are programmed to assume that starting with 3 = Amex, starting with 4 = Visa credit, starting with 5 is MasterCard credit, and starting with 6 = no idea, decline automatically.

 

[Pumbaa]

Heard also that Lloyds TSB cards are problematic despite being "normal" Visa debit cards.

I can fully vouch for that! A pain in the arse.

I usually carry around three or four different cards, and when travelling for leisure I use my Lloyds card. Its really irritating when I'm then asked to pay using my work, petrol or other account! So can I in this situation ask the Guard to ring through for authorisation rather than getting chinged for using an incorrect card?

 

[sheff1]

I usually carry around three or four different cards, and when travelling for leisure I use my Lloyds card. Its really irritating when I'm then asked to pay using my work, petrol or other account! So can I in this situation ask the Guard to ring through for authorisation rather than getting chinged for using an incorrect card?

Of course you can. With many (most?) employers it would be a serious disciplinary office to use the company card for private expenditure anyway.

I find it very annoying when retail staff (not just TOCs) try and insist I use another card when their system will not accept a perfectly valid card. If told 'you'll have to use another card' I would always refuse. If, though, they apologise and ask whether I am able to pay by other means then I am far more amenable.

Only yesterday, two people joined the train I was on at an unstaffed station. The first paid with no problem, the second's card was rejected. The guard rather abruptedly said to the first traveller that they would have to pay for their companion as well - why ?

 

[wintonian]

Working for a bank I can confirm most of what has been said in the thread to date:

• All Visa Electron and Solo cards must be authorized online at all times. This is why railways officially don't accept Visa Electron or Solo cards.
• Some other cards (primarily Visa debit and prepaid cards) are programmed at chip level (and also have a code called service code X2X on their magstripe) saying that offline transactions are not allowed.
• The latter category can be overridden on card terminals, but if the merchant does this, there's no guarantee they'll be paid.
• The chip can be programmed to allow offline transactions to a certain limit, before going online.
• All merchants have a limit for transactions that can be done offline, called the floor limit. The default floor limit is £0, but trusted merchants (such as supermarkets) can have a higher floor limit for chip & PIN transactions, and certain merchants (such as TOCs) can have a higher limit for magstripe transactions as well.
• The card type of a card is identified by its first six digits (called BIN, or Bank Identification Number, but one bank can have piles of BINs if it wants to), and lists are published a couple of times a year defining what class of card a certain number means. As new types of card come out all the time, in the interim if an unrecognized BIN shows up then most card terminals are programmed to assume that starting with 3 = Amex, starting with 4 = Visa credit, starting with 5 is MasterCard credit, and starting with 6 = no idea, decline automatically.

And for anyone who can't sleep theres a list on BIN numbers here

 

[island]

One extra thing. There's a Lloyds product called Control by which for £10 a month they more or less guarantee not to allow your account go into unauthorized overdraft. This can be added to an account without reissuing the debit card, so I suppose they have therefore decided to make all their Visa debit cards force an online authorization for all amounts. But now I'm going way off topic, apologies.

 

[scrapy]

Of course you can. With many (most?) employers it would be a serious disciplinary office to use the company card for private expenditure anyway.

I find it very annoying when retail staff (not just TOCs) try and insist I use another card when their system will not accept a perfectly valid card. If told 'you'll have to use another card' I would always refuse. If, though, they apologise and ask whether I am able to pay by other means then I am far more amenable.

Only yesterday, two people joined the train I was on at an unstaffed station. The first paid with no problem, the second's card was rejected. The guard rather abruptedly said to the first traveller that they would have to pay for their companion as well - why ?

The card may be perfectly valid, but if the bank says it will not authorise the transaction then so be it. 'The system' works to the rules of the banks, not the TOCs. I'm sure the TOCs would love the system to authorise everytime
and the banks guarantee payment. It is not unreasonable if the card declines for a guard to ask for another card or form of payment, no apology should be necessary as it is the customers bank which has refused payment, not the TOC. It is the passenger who is responsible for having a card which authorises, not the TOCs to accept it when it doesn't. I have previously advised passengers to speak to their bank.

A guard obviously cannot force a passengers companion to pay there fare, however it may be less bother to the passengers, than an unpaid fares notice, which is the alternative.

The most sensible solution would be for ATOC to work with banks to advise those people whom the bank won't give offline authorisation to. They could print on the back of card 'Cannot be used on trains', given that the railway is unique in that machines cannot be connected to a phone line to achieve authorisation. This would be less drastic than the alternaive which is being discussed by ATOC which would be to stop accepting Visa debit.

 

[island]

There is a distinction here between the card declining and requesting you to phone for authorization. In the latter case, guards should phone in rather than taking the lazy option of asking for an alternative payment.

Stopping the acceptance of Visa debit cards on trains would lead to an absolute mess. (Although they're not accepted in NI and acceptance is scarce in ROI.)

 

[scrapy]

The Diones simply say 'declined' they do not ask you to phone for authorisation.

Certain TOCs guards are no longer able to phone for authorisation for security reasons.

1) The card number needs to be given over the phone, this maybe heard by others on a busy train.
2) You can't take the card somewhere more secure like the cab as you can't take it out of the view of the customer.
3) Certain lines have virtually no mobile phone reception.

TOCs instructions are to issue UPFN if passenger has no other means of payment. This is not a lazy option and would take longer than a phone call.

 

[mumrar]

1) The card number needs to be given over the phone, this maybe heard by others on a busy train.

The number I call (HSBC merchant services) is an automated system operated by touchtone. No possibilty of over-hearing that, but I don't know if all electronic payment service providers have converted to this or if some still do it verbally with humans.

 

[transportphoto]

The number I call (HSBC merchant services) is an automated system operated by touchtone. No possibilty of over-hearing that, but I don't know if all electronic payment service providers have converted to this or if some still do it verbally with humans.

I know this is everso slightly off topic. In this instance - the guard (yourself) has then stored the card number & the *** digits on the back on his/her work phone. Surely this then becomes and Identity thieves paradise after a couple of phone calls?

Just an idea - related to the work I am working on ATM.