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Russia invades Ukraine

najaB

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Perhaps only because of active suppression of the likes of RT on the air waves.

One thing that worries me is that if you have to silence the other side are you being no better than the other side?
They aren't silenced. If you want to read/watch RT content it's all available online.
Back in WWII "Lord Haw Haw" and others freely broadcast to Britain and from what I have read not all of the information was accurate - claiming at least once to have sunk an RN "stone frigate" land base for example.

After the war Joyce was dealt with.

I am sure Britain could have blocked the transmissions - but did not - just let the Nazis dig their own hole.
But what they wouldn't do is let Joyce broadcast using a transmitter *in Britain*. So it's actually pretty much the same now as it was then - people who want to can get access, but we aren't giving them a platform on our doorstep.
 
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AlterEgo

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Perhaps only because of active suppression of the likes of RT on the air waves.

One thing that worries me is that if you have to silence the other side are you being no better than the other side?
No, why would we wilfully allow Russian propaganda?

Once you start silencing the other side in a conflict and trying to control the narrative seems just as wrong as the war itself.
Does it really seem as wrong as invading a country and murdering civilians? Really?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Could still be a murder suicide. Had he been affected by sanctions and was unable to function?

Wait for the police verdict before jumping conclusions.
I’m sure the Russian police verdict will be comprehensive and unbiased, free from external influence.
 

dakta

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Being free to chose a side is obviously correct we shouldn't tell people what to think but you do have to draw a line when certain sources are not only taking liberties with facts but are so very provable so.

People are good at believing what they are told when presented with opinions as facts and it's actually quite good and quite responsible that we clamped down on this, the other side of the argument still exists but it's now harder to get dodgy facts about it
 

najaB

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Why would the Russian police be investigating an incident which occured in Spain ?
It's not unknown for foreign police to be involved in investigations when there's a high-profile victim or lots of public interest, and suspicious circumstances.

Usually as observers though, and at the invite of the country where the incident happened. Look at UK police being involved in the Maddie McCann investigation as an example.
 

John Luxton

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Being free to chose a side is obviously correct we shouldn't tell people what to think but you do have to draw a line when certain sources are not only taking liberties with facts but are so very provable so.

People are good at believing what they are told when presented with opinions as facts and it's actually quite good and quite responsible that we clamped down on this, the other side of the argument still exists but it's now harder to get dodgy facts about it
Three years or so ago I would have agreed with you.

But the pandemic showed us just how our news can be manipulated by our politicians to suit an agenda. Until GB News came along there was no alternative narrative. No one questioned Covid strategy.

Once I trusted the BBC almost without question now I trust no body having seen how those questioning covid strategy were silenced, sidelined or accused of wearing tinfoil hats.

Therefore I no longer trust our side to be telling the absolute truth.
 

Pete_uk

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Maybe those oligarchs know the gravy train has well and truly come off the tracks and their days of relentless luxury are over.
 

Darandio

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Therefore I no longer trust our side to be telling the absolute truth.

But dozens of countries around the world are saying exactly the same as the news outlets here at home. Surely you don't think they're all lying to you?
 

87015

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Three years or so ago I would have agreed with you.

But the pandemic showed us just how our news can be manipulated by our politicians to suit and agenda. Until GB News came along there was no alternative narrative.

Once I trusted the BBC almost without question now I trust no body having seen how those questioning covid strategy were silenced, sidelined or accused of wearing tinfoil hats.

Therefore I no longer trust our side to be telling the absolute truth.
Perhaps you could just do one to tin foil hat land where you live and leave the rest of us alone? Hope you are being paid for spouting the above.
 

John Luxton

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They aren't silenced. If you want to read/watch RT content it's all available online.

But what they wouldn't do is let Joyce broadcast using a transmitter *in Britain*. So it's actually pretty much the same now as it was then - people who want to can get access, but we aren't giving them a platform on our doorstep.
I know its on line and frankly I don't watch RT these days.

My questioning is the closing down of the TV channel which was widely available.

Even in the 1940s I am sure the technology existed to block the frequency Joyce broadcast on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Perhaps you could just do one to tin foil hat land where you live and leave the rest of us alone?
That is a very pathetic remark.
 

dakta

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We shouldn't go off topic here but just one thing

'No one questioned Covid strategy'

There was a lot of questioning of covid strategy, a lot of people i know at least seemed to think it was largely bollocks I think that's actually half the reason people are so miffed at the party thing - some went with it not out of agreement but just in good faith that whether for better for worse we'd get through it.

I wouldn't want to credit GB news for much of that I just think people were able to think critically. Some of it was also mindedness to be honest. It's also a bit of a special topic because the right strategy wasn't known, couldn't be known and even in hindsight we can't really tell if we got it right.
 
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John Luxton

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We shouldn't go off topic here but just one thing

'No one questioned Covid strategy'

There was a lot of questioning of covid strategy, a lot of people i know at least seemed to think it was largely bollocks I think that's actually half the reason people are so miffed at the party thing - some went with it not out of agreement but just in good faith that whether for better for worse we'd get through it.

I wouldn't want to credit GB news for much of that I just think people were able to think critically.
But there wasn't on the main channels including the BBC. We were basically "brainwashed" into accepting the government strategy. Other scientists and medics who had a different opinion were silenced, sidelines or struck off.

In a truly free society everyone should have the right to make their opinion heard. This manipulation of information causes people to lose trust.

As a consequence I do not entirely trust our media to tell the truth on Ukraine - not that I am implying the Russians are telling the truth either.

In most cases the truth probably lies somewhere in between.

Unlike most I am not wildly waving the Ukrainian flag but I am not waving the Russian one either.

Just questioning everything we are being told by our media in the light of recent experience related to Covid.

As I said turn back the clock three years and I probably would not be thinking as I am now.

With regard to GBN the channel did open the debate on strategy with Neil Oliver and Dan Wootton being particularly critical.
 

najaB

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I know its on line and frankly I don't watch RT these days.

Even in the 1940s I am sure the technology existed to block the frequency Joyce broadcast on.
And if the authorities wanted to they could block all access to RT online. The point is that they haven't. They aren't stopping people from accessing RT if they want to, they have just determined that RT isn't a suitable organisation to hold a broadcast licence.
 

Doppelganger

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In a truly free society everyone should have the right to make their opinion heard. This manipulation of information causes people to lose trust.
Not so. If any Tom, Dick or Harry spouted their opinion, then where do the experts sit?

This is the issue today where a qualified and highly educated expert gets equal airtime to some crank who happens to disagree with a well researched and peer reviewed position. We need more people to be brave enough to call the charlatans out and not crumple under the first objection to not giving someone an equal view. It's not equal and with good reason.
 

dakta

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Maybe it was just the words used but I also dont go for the being heard bit, I'd fight for anyones right to hold a free opinion but to broadcast it might be a bit unsolicited for the others sake. Obviously thats subjective to when and where, i.e here I'd expect to hear every opinion on the planet (and expect to share it). However it can be easily twisted into 'a right to speak my mind is an obligation for you to listen' - that can feel a bit pushy.

Regarding the alternative view it's actually quite simple IMO - anyone can hold any opinion but if the information they are getting is bad then it's less than worthless it's dangerous, irresponsible, can do harm and I don't see any problems in that point in stepping in. In that sense it was right to let ofcom do their thing it was the standards that were the issue.
 
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John Luxton

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Not so. If any Tom, Dick or Harry spouted their opinion, then where do the experts sit?

This is the issue today where a qualified and highly educated expert gets equal airtime to some crank who happens to disagree with a well researched and peer reviewed position. We need more people to be brave enough to call the charlatans out and not crumple under the first objection to not giving someone an equal view. It's not equal and with good reason.
But who has the right to decide who is the expert and who is the crank>

Some experts have agendas - they are not as neutral as they appear as we have found out in the past two years.

Silencing / sidelining someone for their views is surely a slippery slope?

That is where totalitarianism starts.
 

najaB

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Silencing / sidelining someone for their views is surely a slippery slope?

That is where totalitarianism starts.
I agree with that. But RT hasn't been silenced. I just loaded their website.

Being able to hold and express your opinion is a right. Holding a broadcast licence is a privilege.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Video of Putin's meeting earlier with Sergei Shoigu to discuss Mariupol and calling off the Azovstal steel mill assault.


Is it just me or does Putin look pretty unwell in it?
 

Yew

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No, why would we wilfully allow Russian propaganda?
I hardly imagine their viewer base is substantial, and it just gives Russia a carte-blanche to censor the BBC or other international news organisations. It doesn't seem like we're gaining much, and we are giving Putin a legitimate excuse for his censorship.
 

najaB

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It doesn't seem like we're gaining much, and we are giving Putin a legitimate excuse for his censorship.
Russia has banned all independent media and passed legislation that makes reporting anything other than the official state line punishable by up to 16 years in prison.

They didn't need an excuse to ban external media sources.
 

Yew

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Russia has banned all independent media and passed legislation that makes reporting anything other than the official state line punishable by up to 16 years in prison.

They didn't need an excuse to ban external media sources.
But when questioned about such things, they can now trot out "but the Brits did it first", and if history has shown one thing, Russia loves whatabouttery. Perhaps it would have been better for me to say "plausible excuse", if you catch my meaning.
 

Gloster

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Why would the Russian police be investigating an incident which occured in Spain ?
My understanding is that two oligarchs have been found dead with family members on consecutive days (Monday and Tuesday). One was in Moscow and the other in Spain. Curious.
 

Yew

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Not so. If any Tom, Dick or Harry spouted their opinion, then where do the experts sit?

This is the issue today where a qualified and highly educated expert gets equal airtime to some crank who happens to disagree with a well researched and peer reviewed position. We need more people to be brave enough to call the charlatans out and not crumple under the first objection to not giving someone an equal view. It's not equal and with good reason.
Unfortunately, on the matter of COVID, the field of expertise of many experts is at most tangential to the field of epidemiology. For example the Social Anthropologists like Devi Shrinhar been called upon to give their view on Epidemiology.
 

Yew

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Your statement is correct, but misses the point. My argument is not substantiatively altered by such pedantry; we have ceded the moral high ground for minimal appreciable gain.

I must also ask that if you do quote me, it is probably more conducive to discussion to avoid breaking things below the sentence level, so that readers can better understand the context of discussion.
 
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najaB

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Your statement is correct, but misses the point. My argument is not substantiatively altered by such pedantry; we have ceded the moral high ground for minimal appreciable gain.
But we haven't ceded anything. RT is still freely available in the UK. I just loaded their website. The BBC is not available in Russia (unless you have the technical ability to bypass the blocks).
 

Yew

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But we haven't ceded anything. RT is still freely available in the UK. I just loaded their website. The BBC is not available in Russia (unless you have the technical ability to bypass the blocks).
We have just discussed that their Broadcasting license was taken away. Putin can now deflect criticism by saying that "Britain has censored/blocked/shut down the tv channel/your-wording-here RT" to deflect any domestic or international criticism.
 

DustyBin

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Unfortunately, on the matter of COVID, the field of expertise of many experts is at most tangential to the field of epidemiology. For example the Social Anthropologists like Devi Shrinhar been called upon to give their view on Epidemiology.

Correct, although a surprising (or perhaps not) number of people don’t realise this.
 

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