Northern TVM oddities

[SuspectUsual]

Two things I noticed buying a ticket
From Todmorden to Halifax just now. I’ve attached photos to illustrate.

1 - the list of stations on the “quick buy” tab is insane. It includes New Pudsey and (even more bizarrely) Bramley, but doesn’t include Manchester, Burnley, Halifax, Bradford or Leeds. How can they allow such a daft selection?

2 - when buying an anytime single to Halifax the step prior to payment (second photo) tells me the time if
The next train and that I should only proceed to but the ticket if I am getting that train. Firstly, there is no such restriction with an anytime ticket, and secondly there is no option to it a ticket if I’m not getting that train. I don’t remember seeing this screen in the past so presume it’s new(ish). Why is it there?

 

[alistairlees]

Yes, it's nuts isn't it? Simple small things that would make a daily difference to thousands of customers, but just don't get addressed, despite millions of pounds of taxpayer funding. You're better off buying your tickets online and getting eTickets (no app is required and you don't need to print anything).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does the list of "quick buy" stations showing on the Todmorden TVM ever change, depending on what's recently been bought using the machine?

Not sure about the warning info as displayed in the second screen. Might make sense if you were buying an Off Peak Day Return from Todmorden to/from Halifax shortly before the afternoon weekday "1601-1829 peak hours" restrictions are due to apply.

Utterly bizarre if you're buying an Anytime Single though.

Seems that the displays on this particular TVM haven't been adequately beta-tested.

 

[Haywain]

Does the list of "quick buy" stations showing on the Todmorden TVM ever change, depending on what's recently been bought using the machine?

Yes, that list is automatically generated based on what people are buying, and can contain surprises.

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despite millions of pounds of taxpayer funding.

I'm not aware of (direct) taxpayer funding for TVM interfaces.

 

[northernman]

Hi, I will take a look at this in terms of destinations shown on the new "quick buy" feature. The screen showing the train and countdown to departure is there to ensure you know when the next train is departing. You may find the TVM is adjacent to the train (Dore for example), but it may not (Leeds for example).

 

[alistairlees]

Yes, that list is automatically generated based on what people are buying, and can contain surprises.

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I'm not aware of (direct) taxpayer funding for TVM interfaces.

Northern is (very) heavily subsidised.

 

[185]

These must be typed by someone, as the main fares sold from Tod (for many years) were... Manchester, Rochdale, Hebden Bridge, Halifax and Bradford. Possibly a few to Walsden or Littleborough - maybe Burnley MR now that's a direct destination... but not Bramley or Pudsey.

At least that one's actually working...

Think a certain foreign power has hacked the New Mills one again

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it's nuts isn't it? Simple small things that would make a daily difference to thousands of customers, but just don't get addressed, despite millions of pounds of taxpayer funding. You're better off buying your tickets online and getting eTickets (no app is required and you don't need to print anything).

I have on occasions wondered if TVM UIs were deliberately bad in order to push people onto using their phone instead.

 

[Haywain]

Northern is (very) heavily subsidised.

On that basis everything they spend money on is taxpayer funded.

 

[ainsworth74]

The screen showing the train and countdown to departure is there to ensure you know when the next train is departing. You may find the TVM is adjacent to the train (Dore for example), but it may not (Leeds for example).

I think that intent is good but I think the issue is around the suggestion from the wording that if you can't make that service then the ticket isn't valid anymore. Something a little more unambiguous might be better. Or if possible a warning based on the ticket type being retailed.

 

[thejuggler]

I had a similar issue a few weeks ago, and its a case of too much data leading to confusion. I was travelling from Bramley to Bingley via Leeds to arrive Bingley for about 12.30.

I had the journey times sorted and arrived at the station with about 10 minutes to my service. Chose a quick buy ticket and it then gave me train times which were completely different to what I was due to take, with an arrival nearer 1pm.

I now have a problem. Has my chosen train been cancelled? If so I'm back in the car and driving to Bingley as the offered times meant I would be late. I then had to check and the services I planned were running with no delays.

Whilst I'm checking my times someone else was trying to buy some tickets, one with a Young Person Railcard and one with a Senior railcard. She sacked it in the end and just took a Promise to Pay as the screen was so unresponsive.

 

[northernman]

I think that intent is good but I think the issue is around the suggestion from the wording that if you can't make that service then the ticket isn't valid anymore. Something a little more unambiguous might be better. Or if possible a warning based on the ticket type being retailed.

Understood, I will take a look at it thank you

 

[Killingworth]

These must be typed by someone, as the main fares sold from Tod (for many years) were... Manchester, Rochdale, Hebden Bridge, Halifax and Bradford. Possibly a few to Walsden or Littleborough - maybe Burnley MR now that's a direct destination... but not Bramley or Pudsey.

At least that one's actually working...

Think a certain foreign power has hacked the New Mills one again

I used both New Mills stations yesterday and can confirm that users suffered deprivation of information at both. Evidence coincidentally found in corner of photo taken at Newtown. "There is a fault with this display please refer to timetables" Same message displayed at Central. No timetables displayed at either. Users on platform for Manchester were clearly relying on memory for normal half hourly service which doesn't run at present.


At Dore & Totley the TVM offers a different quick buy choice at commuting times to later in the day. I'm mystified how they are assessed as being the most requested. A lot of travellers now buy on apps or pick up pre-ordered tickets so that might influence it. Yesterday it went all temperamental when asked for New Mills and froze. After a rest it came round and did as it should.

 

[Haywain]

I think that intent is good but I think the issue is around the suggestion from the wording that if you can't make that service then the ticket isn't valid anymore. Something a little more unambiguous might be better. Or if possible a warning based on the ticket type being retailed.

You make a good point. It’s the problem of complex ticketing and simple generic wording.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2022 ==

At Dore & Totley the TVM offers a different quick buy choice at commuting times to later in the day. I'm mystified how they are assessed as being the most requested.

Quick tickets are set up manually but popular destinations are usually automatic.

 

[Killingworth]

Two things I noticed buying a ticket
From Todmorden to Halifax just now. I’ve attached photos to illustrate.

1 - the list of stations on the “quick buy” tab is insane. It includes New Pudsey and (even more bizarrely) Bramley, but doesn’t include Burnley, Halifax, Bradford or Leeds. How can they allow such a daft selection?

2 - when buying an anytime single to Halifax the step prior to payment (second photo) tells me the time if
The next train and that I should only proceed to but the ticket if I am getting that train. Firstly, there is no such restriction with an anytime ticket, and secondly there is no option to it a ticket if I’m not getting that train. I don’t remember seeing this screen in the past so presume it’s new(ish). Why is it there?

I got the same warning at Dore when buying 5 minutes before train was due to leave.

 

[Haywain]

Evidence coincidentally found in corner of photo taken at Newtown

The departure board won’t be anything to do with the TVM unless there was a wider data feed problem.

 

[Killingworth]

The departure board won’t be anything to do with the TVM unless there was a wider data feed problem.

I suspect there was. Whaley Bridge seemed to be OK though.

 

[johntea]

I would assume the next train messaging is a unintended 'bug' when using quick buy, presumably in the background it just selects the first available ticket for you as if you had gone through the whole journey planner process

 

[SuspectUsual]

The screen showing the train and countdown to departure is there to ensure you know when the next train is departing. You may find the TVM is adjacent to the train (Dore for example), but it may not (Leeds for example).

OK, but what if (your Leeds example) you can’t catch that train, or if you’re buying now but travelling later? There seems to be no option at this stage other than to cancel the transaction, and then you’re back to square one - ie the only way I could buy the ticket I wanted was to say “yes” to the will you be on this train question

 

[Watershed]

You make a good point. It’s the problem of complex ticketing and simple generic wording.

It surely wouldn't be that hard to have one set of wording for if you're buying Advance tickets, and another set for walk-up tickets?

This is really basic stuff. The lack of attention to detail when designing the UI of these machines really shows, I'm afraid to say. Older TVMs may be more basic but they are much easier to use and understand.

 

[Haywain]

It surely wouldn't be that hard to have one set of wording for if you're buying Advance tickets, and another set for walk-up tickets?

This is really basic stuff. The lack of attention to detail when designing the UI of these machines really shows, I'm afraid to say. Older TVMs may be more basic but they are much easier to use and understand.

It really isn’t easy and isn’t basic stuff. The root of such a problem is in the almost infinite variety of ticket types and names and conditions that have developed over the years in complete isolation from the technology to sell them. The lack of attention to detail that think you see is the compromises that have to be made to get something that sort of works at a cost that is acceptable. Particularly with TVMs even small changes can come at enormous costs and you can’t go elsewhere without replacing an entire fleet at huge costs.

 

[bakerstreet]

It really isn’t easy and isn’t basic stuff. The root of such a problem is in the almost infinite variety of ticket types and names and conditions that have developed over the years in complete isolation from the technology to sell them. The lack of attention to detail that think you see is the compromises that have to be made to get something that sort of works at a cost that is acceptable. Particularly with TVMs even small changes can come at enormous costs and you can’t go elsewhere without replacing an entire fleet at huge costs.

Non journey planner interfaces don’t have this problem

 

[Watershed]

It really isn’t easy and isn’t basic stuff. The root of such a problem is in the almost infinite variety of ticket types and names and conditions that have developed over the years in complete isolation from the technology to sell them. The lack of attention to detail that think you see is the compromises that have to be made to get something that sort of works at a cost that is acceptable. Particularly with TVMs even small changes can come at enormous costs and you can’t go elsewhere without replacing an entire fleet at huge costs.

If a TVM supplier can't work out whether a ticket is train-specific or flexible, they're in the wrong business. No, it's not as basic as going "does the ticket name contain Advance" - but these are the things that suppliers are paid for working out. Getting it wrong is a sign that either the supplier, or the TOC, or both, pay little attention to detail.

 

[py_megapixel]

Particularly with TVMs even small changes can come at enormous costs and you can’t go elsewhere without replacing an entire fleet at huge costs.

Seriously?

We live in 2022. There is no reason a TVM needs to be anything other than a big Android tablet with a roll printer, and readers for Chip and Pin, NFC (for Contactless and ITSO) and possibly barcodes. There are plenty of different white-label ticket sales apps, varying in user-friendliness from "barely even works properly" (PICO4UK) to "fairly polished" (Trainline). Then there's LNER's custom one, and while I don't personally like it, I will happily acknowledge that it is one of the best ones for an unfamiliar member of the public. It can't be that hard for one of those to be adapted to a kiosk environment rather than a personal device, surely?

If railway companies still think one needs specialised embedded devices, with a lock-in to using the software provided by the hardware supplier (and which apparently require a Windows license for every TVM!), to perform a task which basically amounts to running a search of a database, taking a card payment and then thermal-printing some text onto some paper, then no wonder the thing is so expensive to run.

 

[Haywain]

Non journey planner interfaces don’t have this problem

And that also fail to sell on the day Advance tickets and off peak tickets at times when they wouldn’t be valid. It’s a compromise.

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Seriously?

Yes.

We live in 2022. There is no reason a TVM needs to be anything other than a big Android tablet with a roll printer, and readers for Chip and Pin, NFC (for Contactless and ITSO) and possibly barcodes. There are plenty of different white-label ticket sales apps, varying in user-friendliness from "barely even works properly" (PICO4UK) to "fairly polished" (Trainline). Then there's LNER's custom one, and while I don't personally like it, I will happily acknowledge that it is one of the best ones for an unfamiliar member of the public. It can't be that hard for one of those to be adapted to a kiosk environment rather than a personal device, surely?

Sounds like you’ve an idea for a business. Off you go, but don’t forget about the hardware and the accreditation. And the fact that the market for TVMs is not far short of dead.

 

[TUC]

Can TVMs be set to have time-sensitive messages? e.g. So that if one is buying a ticket after 1530, of a type that is not valid after 1601, it says 'if this ticket is for immediate travel, please make sure you board a train that departs before 1601', but doesn't display that message at other times?