Unpublished Contactless Boundary Zone Fares

[Hapana]

Do these things exist?

I am trying to work out how various journeys have been "capped" from the Thames Valley into London, travel around London and then return to the Thames Valley. I can only assume that the system has tried various capping scenarios with zones, and then added on these mysterious boundary zone CPay fares.

Is this a thing? Is there anyway to find out what these fares are other than trial and guesswork?

 

[JonathanH]

Trial and guesswork. The extension fare from Reading to Boundary Zone 6 is definitely more than the fare to West Drayton so I would imagine that this applies at most of the stations in the Thames Valley area. I think the extension fare is also more than half the difference between an inboundary Zone 6 travelcard and one issued from Reading.

This is my journey history from December 2021 and another journey from September 2021. I think the Zone 1-6 cap at the time was £13.50, so the Reading to Zone 6 was charged at 13.40 + 7.00 + 1.05 - 13.50 = £7.95 which is more than the fare at the time from Reading to Hayes & Harlington in Zone 5 (£7.30), let alone the current single fare from Reading to West Drayton which is £6.80.



Using a similar approach, I think Maidenhead's extension fare from Zone 6 was £4.80 in 2021 (£18.30 less £13.50). Even at 2022 prices, the off-peak single fare from Maidenhead to West Drayton is only £3.30.

 

[akm]

Using a similar approach, I think Maidenhead's extension fare from Zone 6 was £4.80 in 2021 (£18.30 less £13.50). Even at 2022 prices, the off-peak single fare from Maidenhead to West Drayton is only £3.30.
View attachment 112934

You've used two Maidenhead extensions here. Which is not to say it's necessarily as simple as concluding the extension fare is half the excess over the cap...

 

[JonathanH]

You've used two Maidenhead extensions here. Which is not to say it's necessarily as simple as concluding the extension fare is half the excess over the cap...

Ah yes, good point - at least my Reading one was one extension. It does seem that a single extension is not half the excess.

 

[Hapana]

Could it be that the back office capping system is checking capping for 1-2; 1-3; 1-4 etc. Whichever is cheaper, and it will no always cap on 1-6?

 

[JonathanH]

Could it be that the back office capping system is checking capping for 1-2; 1-3; 1-4 etc. Whichever is cheaper, and it will no always cap on 1-6?

If capping is cheaper for 1-2; 1-3; 1-4 etc, it would suggest a cheaper boundary fare, not a more expensive one.

 

[MikeWh]

If capping is cheaper for 1-2; 1-3; 1-4 etc, it would suggest a cheaper boundary fare, not a more expensive one.

Capping WILL be checking for the cheapest combination of cap and relevant BZ fare. The two do not always keep step with each other.

 

[Hapana]

Capping WILL be checking for the cheapest combination of cap and relevant BZ fare. The two do not always keep step with each other.

If this is the case, how is the average informed punter supposed to check the logic that they have received the lowest charge if they do not publish the fares. Are we supposed to simply "trust" that TfL get it right?

 

[JonathanH]

Are we supposed to simply "trust" that TfL get it right?

Essentially yes. It allows RDG to set whatever they like as the boundary fare to preserve TOC revenue.

The boundary fares on the Gatwick route, I think, are more than the fare to stations on the line of route in Zone 2.

 

[bakerstreet]

Essentially yes. It allows RDG to set whatever they like as the boundary fare to preserve TOC revenue.

The boundary fares on the Gatwick route, I think, are more than the fare to stations on the line of route in Zone 2.

Given that boundary fares (in my experience) have always been identical or very close to the price of the last station in Zone 6 to avoid double charging the passenger for parts of the journey where a ticket is already held, isn’t this new boundary fares policy now actively double charging the passenger (expect without them being made aware of it)
This strikes me as disgraceful.

 

[JonathanH]

Given that boundary fares (in my experience) have always been identical or very close to the price of the last station in Zone 6 to avoid double charging the passenger for parts of the journey where a ticket is already held, isn’t this new boundary fares policy now actively double charging the passenger (expect without them being made aware of it)
This strikes me as disgraceful.

Yes and no. Essentially the issue is that TfL reduced the price of in-boundary zonal caps to one-fifth of the weekly price while keeping paper travelcard ticket prices unchanged. This hasn't happened with the fares outside London.

RDG and the relevant TOC proving teams have had to 'price up' boundary fares to maintain revenue relative to the fares they want to charge for journeys from outside London to the relevant London Terminals.

For example, the Zone 1-6 cap is £14.10 at anytime.

The cap for Redhill is £35.20 peak and £22.40 off-peak.

The single fare from Redhill to Coulsdon South on Contactless is £4.80 peak / £2.80 off-peak.

The single fares from Redhill to London terminal stations are £12.00 peak / £7.00 peak.

You can kind of see why the boundary fare needs to be much more than the fare from Redhill to the first Zone 6 station.

 

[bakerstreet]

Yes and no. Essentially the issue is that TfL reduced the price of in-boundary zonal caps to one-fifth of the weekly price while keeping paper travelcard ticket prices unchanged. This hasn't happened with the fares outside London.

RDG and the relevant TOC proving teams have had to 'price up' boundary fares to maintain revenue relative to the fares they want to charge for journeys from outside London to the relevant London Terminals.

For example, the Zone 1-6 cap is £14.10 at anytime.

The cap for Redhill is £35.20 peak and £22.40 off-peak.

The single fare from Redhill to Coulsdon South on Contactless is £4.80 peak / £2.80 off-peak.

The single fares from Redhill to London terminal stations are £12.00 peak / £7.00 peak.

You can kind of see why the boundary fare needs to be much more than the fare from Redhill to the first Zone 6 station.

Thank you - that makes sense. Then one of the remaining issues is for the system to be transparent about what you can expect to be charged before you’re charged it !

 

[Watershed]

Yes and no. Essentially the issue is that TfL reduced the price of in-boundary zonal caps to one-fifth of the weekly price while keeping paper travelcard ticket prices unchanged. This hasn't happened with the fares outside London.

RDG and the relevant TOC proving teams have had to 'price up' boundary fares to maintain revenue relative to the fares they want to charge for journeys from outside London to the relevant London Terminals.

For example, the Zone 1-6 cap is £14.10 at anytime.

The cap for Redhill is £35.20 peak and £22.40 off-peak.

The single fare from Redhill to Coulsdon South on Contactless is £4.80 peak / £2.80 off-peak.

The single fares from Redhill to London terminal stations are £12.00 peak / £7.00 peak.

You can kind of see why the boundary fare needs to be much more than the fare from Redhill to the first Zone 6 station.

I don't see that this follows. The boundary fares should be the same as those to the first zone not covered by the zonal cap.

For example if you have travelled sufficiently within Zones 1-6 to reach the daily cap, and then make a journey to Redhill, I would expect to pay the Redhill to Zone 6 fare, i.e. £2.80/£4.80. If I were charged nearer to £7.00/£12.70 I would regard that as overcharging and I don't think TfL can justify charging that, when they refuse to publish the extension fares.

Of course this is only going to affect a small number of people, but it has scope to result in not insubstantial levels of overcharging.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think TfL can justify charging that, when they refuse to publish the extension fares.

It isn't a TfL matter - they just do what they are told. It is RDG / DfT who have set the higher fares.

I think the disconnect comes from the fact the TfL set their boundary fares consistently with point to point fares and so don't need to publish them separately. RDG/DfT have imposed higher boundary fares and TfL don't have anywhere on their website to show them.

Of course this is only going to affect a small number of people, but it has scope to result in not insubstantial levels of overcharging.

It is going to affect a lot more people when Contactless PAYG is extended to a wider area.

 

[Watershed]

It isn't a TfL matter - they just do what they are told. It is RDG / DfT who have set the higher fares.

I think the disconnect comes from the fact the TfL set their boundary fares consistently with point to point fares and so don't need to publish them separately. RDG/DfT have imposed higher boundary fares and TfL don't have anywhere on their website to show them.

TfL are the entity that charge the fares and control the Oyster system. Whilst they set fares in accordance with what the RDG/DfT say, the buck still stops with them, and they are the entity against whom you would ultimately bring a claim if you consider they've charged you more than is "reasonable".

 

[JonathanH]

Here is an example of someone raising a question about extensions to Gatwick on 'MikeWh's website.
https://oysterfares.com/topic/contactless-caps-and-gatwick/

Question
Yesterday my wife made a slightly unusual set of journeys, namely:

Lee (Z3) to Gatwick Airport – NR only via London Bridge – Morning peak – £16.50
Gatwick Airport to Kidbrooke (Z3) – NR only via London Bridge – Off-peak – £9.00
Lee to London Bridge – Evening peak therefore off-peak due to ending in Zone 1 – £3.10
London Bridge to Lee – Peak – £4.00
Total £32.60

For this she has however been charged £31.50.

I think it should have been charged as a zone 1-3 anytime cap of £8.70, plus a peak Zone 4 to Gatwick NR £9.40, plus an off peak Gatwick to zone 4 NR £6.90, coming to £25 even.

Is this “look-back” likely to resolve itself and refund in a few days, or do we need to contact TfL?

MikeWH
Hi Thomas,

Was this a contactless card?

There probably isn’t any refund due because extension fares to Gatwick are not just simply the zones covered. You may remember the article Gatwick The Truth on here a few years back. Because of the bonkers cheap fare from East Croydon to Gatwick the system never charged the full London to Gatwick return fare. DfT/GTR whinged and thus the CPC extension being more than the Oyster extension concept was born.

Question
Yes it was a contactless card.

Even if we use the single fares from Sydenham (zone 3) to Gatwick, it would be £10.90+£6.90+£8.70 = £27.80, so it still feels like an overcharge to me.

MikeWH
It will feel like an overcharge sadly. That’s just the way the DfT forced TfL to charge extensions on that line.

As you can see in the example above, the unpublished extension fares are used to take the overall cost up to the Gatwick cap.

 

[Watershed]

Here is an example of someone raising a question about extensions to Gatwick on 'MikeWh's website.
https://oysterfares.com/topic/contactless-caps-and-gatwick/





As you can see in the example above, the unpublished extension fares are used to take the overall cost up to the Gatwick cap.

All of which would be acceptable (even if unpalatable) if TfL published the extension fares. Yet they stubbornly refuse to do so on spurious grounds.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Have TfL rejected a formal Freedom Of Information request for these fares?

 

[Hapana]

Have TfL rejected a formal Freedom Of Information request for these fares?

Someone succeeded here: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0551-2122

 

[JonathanH]

Someone succeeded here: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0551-2122

That one is a bit easier because the £4.00 is the published fare on the NR scale for Zone 4 to Zone 8 (eg New Eltham to Dartford) in 2021 and can be looked up in the Single Fare Finder.

This is how Contactless boundary fares were originally meant to work. The Gatwick route in 2016 changed the model and something similar has happened on the Reading extension.

 

[MikeWh]

That one is a bit easier because the £4.00 is the published fare on the NR scale for Zone 4 to Zone 8 (eg New Eltham to Dartford) in 2021 and can be looked up in the Single Fare Finder.

Where do you get that from? According to my fare tables zone 4-8 peak adult NR2 fare was £4.20 in 2021 and is still £4.20 but it now comes under NR1 as Southeastern rationalised their fare offering on March 1st this year.

 

[JonathanH]

Where do you get that from? According to my fare tables zone 4-8 peak adult NR2 fare was £4.20 in 2021 and is still £4.20 but it now comes under NR1 as Southeastern rationalised their fare offering on March 1st this year.

Ah, sorry, it was a guess noting that the zone 4 to zone 8 extension was £4 at the link quoted. Was the relevant extension less than the zone 4 to zone 8 fare?

 

[MikeWh]

Ah, sorry, it was a guess noting that the zone 4 to zone 8 extension was £4 at the link quoted. Was the relevant extension less than the zone 4 to zone 8 fare?

It looks like it, yes.