Paddington Cardiff timetabling

[mrmartin]

2 questions...

Firstly, why is there so much padding in the current timetable? For example, a 6-7 minute stop at Swindon?

Secondly, has it been/would it ever be possible to run a more express service to South Wales? Stopping at maybe Bristol Parkway only? Would a 90 minute journey be possible, especially if there was speed improvements past the Welsh border?

 

[30907]

2 questions...

Firstly, why is there so much padding in the current timetable? For example, a 6-7 minute stop at Swindon?

Which train is this? I can find one SX train with a 4min booked stop...

Secondly, has it been/would it ever be possible to run a more express service to South Wales? Stopping at maybe Bristol Parkway only?

Undoubtedly in theory, but the plan sends those to Temple Meads instead.

 

[JonathanH]

Undoubtedly in theory, but the plan sends those to Temple Meads instead.

Didn't a peak 'superfast' service get diverted to South Wales under the original 2019 plans?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-dec-19-timetable.180888/page-9#post-4164837

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Which train is this? I can find one SX train with a 4min booked stop...

I think it's IETs gaining on the schedule and waiting longer in the station as a result? I've had similar on several recent trips in both directions at several stations.

 

[Horizon22]

I think it's IETs gaining on the schedule and waiting longer in the station as a result? I've had similar on several recent trips in both directions at several stations.

The timetable was completely rewritten for IET timings in December 2019 so that won't be the reason.

6-7 mins isn't normal for a S. Wales. Some of the West of England trains might get that at Reading though.

As for the service, theoretically yes you could but you'd be inconveniencing Swindon passengers for not a huge gain (maybe 3-4 minutes).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The timetable was completely rewritten for IET timings in December 2019 so that won't be the reason.

6-7 mins isn't normal for a S. Wales. Some of the West of England trains might get that at Reading though.

As for the service, theoretically yes you could but you'd be inconveniencing Swindon passengers for not a huge gain (maybe 3-4 minutes).

It's Cardiff services I'm talking about in fact - I've been to Cardiff twice in the past few weeks and had waits of at least five minutes outbound at Reading and Swindon, almost as much at Bristol Parkway as well. Inbound, about 3 - 4 minutes each at Bristol Parkway and Swindon, but not at Reading.

I'm going again in early May and I'll keep a closer eye on the stops.

 

[Horizon22]

It's Cardiff services I'm talking about in fact - I've been to Cardiff twice in the past few weeks and had waits of at least five minutes outbound at Reading and Swindon, almost as much at Bristol Parkway as well. Inbound, about 3 - 4 minutes each at Bristol Parkway and Swindon, but not at Reading.

I'm going again in early May and I'll keep a closer eye on the stops.

At Swindon, the only thing I can see is a possible conflict with the Westbury off Platform 2 a few times a day, hence the extended dwell.

 

[Mintona]

The timetable was completely rewritten for IET timings in December 2019 so that won't be the reason.

6-7 mins isn't normal for a S. Wales. Some of the West of England trains might get that at Reading though.

As for the service, theoretically yes you could but you'd be inconveniencing Swindon passengers for not a huge gain (maybe 3-4 minutes).

It’s still easily possible to beat the schedule to Swindon and wait for 5-7 minutes before departing.

 

[Shrop]

Ah, I remember those dim and distant days many years ago, back in the 1970s, decades before electrification, when there was a service which reached Newport from Paddington in 1h24m. Every two hours.
I've bemoaned today's lack of fast trains from London to South Wales previously on here, but I've always been told by "those who know better" that these days ALL trains must stop at Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway.
This means that today's electric trains to Cardiff are slower than the diesel trains of 45 (yes FORTY FIVE) years ago. Such is progress!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ah, I remember those dim and distant days many years ago, back in the 1970s, decades before electrification, when there was a service which reached Newport from Paddington in 1h24m. Every two hours.
I've bemoaned today's lack of fast trains from London to South Wales previously on here, but I've always been told by "those who know better" that these days ALL trains must stop at Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway.
This means that today's electric trains to Cardiff are slower than the diesel trains of 45 (yes FORTY FIVE) years ago. Such is progress!

But if you want to go from Reading to South Wales, a very popular flow it is progress as the service in that 80s HST timetable was pretty appalling. Not everyone wants to go to London.

Connectivity v Journey Time is a fine balance.

 

[Horizon22]

Ah, I remember those dim and distant days many years ago, back in the 1970s, decades before electrification, when there was a service which reached Newport from Paddington in 1h24m. Every two hours.
I've bemoaned today's lack of fast trains from London to South Wales previously on here, but I've always been told by "those who know better" that these days ALL trains must stop at Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway.
This means that today's electric trains to Cardiff are slower than the diesel trains of 45 (yes FORTY FIVE) years ago. Such is progress!

Reading is a big hub and both Swindon and Bristol Parkway have grown (the latter quite significantly) in size, meaning connectivity is also a big part. There's no other natural IC services for Bristol Parkway to get and having an irregular pattern would be odd. Perhaps the Swansea services could miss out a stop, but you wouldn't be making a big dent in time savings anyway for quite a bit of inconvenience for one of the three you mention and Cardiff terminators aren't currently running fully. The frequency is also much increased.

 

[Shrop]

But if you want to go from Reading to South Wales, a very popular flow it is progress as the service in that 80s HST timetable was pretty appalling. Not everyone wants to go to London.

Connectivity v Journey Time is a fine balance.

Hmm, so you're suggesting that Reading to South Wales (over 100 miles) might be sufficiently important that every single London to South Wales train has to stop there, with no exceptions. And yet Portsmouth, which is not a great deal smaller than Cardiff, and only half the distance away from Reading, apparently doesn't justify having any through trains from Reading whatsoever! So I'm not convinced about having to stop every single passenger who wishes to get quickly from London to South Wales, at Reading, on a connectivity basis.

 

[Hadders]

Ah, I remember those dim and distant days many years ago, back in the 1970s, decades before electrification, when there was a service which reached Newport from Paddington in 1h24m. Every two hours.
I've bemoaned today's lack of fast trains from London to South Wales previously on here, but I've always been told by "those who know better" that these days ALL trains must stop at Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway.
This means that today's electric trains to Cardiff are slower than the diesel trains of 45 (yes FORTY FIVE) years ago. Such is progress!

The problem is how do you cater for Swindon to London, Bristol Parkway to London and Reading to London journeys if you don't stop the trains at these stations. These aren't exactly small flows. While it's disappointing to see a headline speed slowed down a train once every 2 hours doesn't really cut it these days - passenger numbers dictate a train every 30 minutes and running non-stop to newport doesn't really work with this.

 

[mrmartin]

I just find it very bizarre that London to Manchester takes basically the same time as London Cardiff, despite being much further distance wise, and having £billions spent on infrastructure and new rolling stock.

The problem is that there are long waits in the timetable and as people have said the IETs often are ahead of schedule (nearly every journey I do has them very ahead of schedule compared to any other train journey I've done).

Surely if you had an "express" every hour stopping at Bristol parkway, newport and Cardiff, then a "stopper" with those stops plus Swindon and reading it would keep a good balance of connectivity Vs journey time? I'm not sure if this could be timetabled well though.

 

[The Planner]

Surely if you had an "express" every hour stopping at Bristol parkway, newport and Cardiff, then a "stopper" with those stops plus Swindon and reading it would keep a good balance of connectivity Vs journey time? I'm not sure if this could be timetabled well though.

This is what people need to consider, putting a fast out with no stops followed by something behind it that does creates a lot of wasted space, unless you can fill that with a train that joins the route later in the gap. You also need to consider the passenger loads to an extent as well. There is an often debated view of a why a class 4 freight often gets put behind an all stations stopper, when you can find the class 4 can sometimes get away.

 

[Horizon22]

Hmm, so you're suggesting that Reading to South Wales (over 100 miles) might be sufficiently important that every single London to South Wales train has to stop there, with no exceptions. And yet Portsmouth, which is not a great deal smaller than Cardiff, and only half the distance away from Reading, apparently doesn't justify having any through trains from Reading whatsoever! So I'm not convinced about having to stop every single passenger who wishes to get quickly from London to South Wales, at Reading, on a connectivity basis.

Why would Portmouth have direct trains? It's not on the same running line as the GWML (although could theortically run via Basingstoke but would have to be diesel/ bi-mode and SWR don't run that way), so that's a bit of an odd point. It's like saying why doesn't Swindon have direct services to Hereford (add other examples as you wish).

You are also claiming that "every single passenger" as if nobody from S. Wales is changing at Reading or getting of their in its own right; it's a big hub for the South of England and every (with the exception of a very small number of peak services) GWR service calls there. There might be more merit in removing Swindon or Bristol Parkway, but I don't think much.

 

[Shrop]

Why would Portmouth have direct trains? It's not on the same running line as the GWML (although could theortically run via Basingstoke but would have to be diesel/ bi-mode and SWR don't run that way), so that's a bit of an odd point. It's like saying why doesn't Swindon have direct services to Hereford (add other examples as you wish).

My point was about connectivity between sizeable conurbations, it doesn't seem right to make Cardiff worthy of a half hourly through service from Reading when Portsmouth gets none whatsoever. The fact that the GWML runs from Reading to Cardiff is something of a coincidental advantage in this, there is a perfectly good railway which runs to Portsmouth from Reading - two routes in fact - it just happens that both are slower routes than the GWML. Fwiw I'm not convinced about your example of Swindon to Hereford when the former is significantly smaller than Reading, the latter is no more than a quarter of the size of Portsmouth, and the rail distance Swindon to Hereford is a lot more than Reading to Portsmouth.

You are also claiming that "every single passenger" as if nobody from S. Wales is changing at Reading or getting of their in its own right; it's a big hub for the South of England and every (with the exception of a very small number of peak services) GWR service calls there. There might be more merit in removing Swindon or Bristol Parkway, but I don't think much.

There's plenty of merit in running regular trains between Cardiff and Reading, just that there's also merit in running an occasional faster service between London and South Wales, and with the right timetabling objectives there ought to be scope for both. Even just a handful of non stop London to Newport services each day, maybe 2 or 3 each way per day, would give South Wales the prestige it arguably deserves, without Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway having to make too much of a sacrifice.

 

[Horizon22]

My point was about connectivity between sizeable conurbations, it doesn't seem right to make Cardiff worthy of a half hourly through service from Reading when Portsmouth gets none whatsoever. The fact that the GWML runs from Reading to Cardiff is something of a coincidental advantage in this, there is a perfectly good railway which runs to Portsmouth from Reading - two routes in fact - it just happens that both are slower routes than the GWML. Fwiw I'm not convinced about your example of Swindon to Hereford when the former is significantly smaller than Reading, the latter is no more than a quarter of the size of Portsmouth, and the rail distance Swindon to Hereford is a lot more than Reading to Portsmouth.

There's plenty of merit in running regular trains between Cardiff and Reading, just that there's also merit in running an occasional faster service between London and South Wales, and with the right timetabling objectives there ought to be scope for both. Even just a handful of non stop London to Newport services each day, maybe 2 or 3 each way per day, would give South Wales the prestige it arguably deserves, without Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway having to make too much of a sacrifice.

It is completely relevant. There are lots of other places a similar proximity to Reading of a similar size but they aren't connected by rail or would result in a slow, indirect journey that it isn't sensible to make the connection. I was just using that as an example. Sorry, but I really struggle to understand your premise. Of course there's "coincedental advantage" and is the same all across the nation because that's where the railways were built 100+ years ago!

As for your other point, as I've said perhaps it might just about be worthwhile but S. Wales still has a pretty fast journey time running at 125mph for most of time. In fact an open access operator was mooted but was rejected due to the "forecast absolute level of abstraction". That being said it may rear its head again in a few years.

 

[Dai Corner]

The December 2020 2019 'electric' timetable included half-hourly 'Bristol superfasts', Temple Meads-Paddington calling at Bristol Parkway only. They only lasted a short time until Covid and then the shortage of Cl 800s led to their withdrawal.

Presumably Bristol was considered a better destination than South Wales.

 

[TheBigD]

The December 2020 'electric' timetable included half-hourly 'Bristol superfasts', Temple Meads-Paddington calling at Bristol Parkway only. They only lasted a short time until Covid and then the shortage of Cl 800s led to their withdrawal.

Presumably Bristol was considered a better destination than South Wales.

Did the Bristol fasts actually start running?

 

[Horizon22]

Did the Bristol fasts actually start running?

Very very briefly (and only in part) between January 2020 - March 2020. The frequency was intended to be increased to 2tph in May 2020 before the big C word.

 

[Mintona]

The peak superfasts started running but the half hourly off peak was supposed to begin in May 2020.

There were also to be some peak superfasts to South Wales which I don’t think ever started. First stop either Bristol Parkway or Newport, I can’t remember which.

Still hoping they might appear in the timetable again at some point. You can definitely make a case for them in the off peaks.

 

[Snow1964]

What the service isn’t is a way of getting from west London to South Wales quickly. If it was then would replace Reading with a call at somewhere like Ealing Broadway.

There seems to be a big assumption in the planning that everyone heading to/from London has a destination at Paddington. Of course if Old Oak (or whatever it will named) is ever built then it might be better to run fast from Bristol Parkway to Old Oak.

If you make the assumption that people only want the city centre then there is no point in building a parkway station at Cardiff

One of the problems of having somewhere like Bristol Parkway is it makes it difficult to fill seats on the Cardiff - Bristol Parkway section

 

[JonathanH]

There seems to be a big assumption in the planning that everyone heading to/from London has a destination at Paddington. Of course if Old Oak (or whatever it will named) is ever built then it might be better to run fast from Bristol Parkway to Old Oak.

There is fairly good evidence that people want to join long distance services at a terminal station where there is time to board and take a seat concentrated in one place.

One of the problems of having somewhere like Bristol Parkway is it makes it difficult to fill seats on the Cardiff - Bristol Parkway section

Is that true? Bristol Parkway is an interchange for the Cross Country network for passengers from South Wales. There also was a commuting flow from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff.

 

[Dai Corner]

One of the problems of having somewhere like Bristol Parkway is it makes it difficult to fill seats on the Cardiff - Bristol Parkway section

On the other hand, having Bristol Parkway helps justify half-hourly services Cardiff-Paddington.

 

[mrmartin]

Very very briefly (and only in part) between January 2020 - March 2020. The frequency was intended to be increased to 2tph in May 2020 before the big C word.

What was the timing of those, out of interest?

One of the problems of having somewhere like Bristol Parkway is it makes it difficult to fill seats on the Cardiff - Bristol Parkway section

Yes, it would actually be better if services went through TM to Cardiff. Obviously a much longer route, but I'm sure if that was the case there would be non-stop trains London-Bristol-Cardiff as the loads would definitely be high enough.

 

[pdeaves]

Ultimately, there is a balance to be struck between serving as many people as possible; getting from end to end as fast as possible; and fitting all the desired trains on the infrastructure we've got (or can build). The decision makers and funders have decided that (under current post-plague conditions) there is limited benefit in running non-stop services compared to calling at some intermediate passenger sources.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

To answer the OP, I believe the xx18 Padd-Cardiff was the fast service immediately behind a freight path either between Didcot and Swindon, or from Hullavington into Bristol Parkway, and therefore the standard pattern has to take this into account. If you look at Patchway, the westbound Swansea/Cardiff has to dovetail with both Up and Down local services between Cardiff-Bristol, including allowing for some very unhelpful positioning of junction signals in rear of the Up platform, I.e. while the Cardiff-Taunton is stopped at Patchway, a down train from Bristol Parkway towards Wales cannot pass. This affects what order trains can run in, and thereby the potential path through Swindon to avoid presenting at the wrong time.

Not easy, this timetable planning lark!

 

[Shrop]

Not easy, this timetable planning lark!

When timetable planning becomes too much for the timetable planners, then it's time to think about upgrading the network. Costly of course, but the alternative of waving the white flag and saying the railways cannot cope with any more traffic is not a good one.

 

[cle]

In the time between the 70s, it has evolved that Reading, Swindon and Bristol Parkway are all much more important markets to London than Newport. Didcot too. And so it fills trains to have them. We have many more trains now too. I could see that if there was ever a third tph to South Wales, first stop BPW/Newport might be appealing. But the current frequency is needed for the other stations too - which need these as their main services.

Also crack expresses don't enable much seat churn - for example you might sell the same seat for London-Swindon and Swindon-Cardiff on a train. Which is a viable business stream on services with significant places en route (ECML has these intermediate places with outbound demand and churn, i.e. York and Newcastle, whereas WCML tends to be X to London and vv)