Northern 170s ex-First class section - Removing 1 and not the other?

[Clansman]

Just have a quick query. I am down (yes, down!) in Northern land at the moment and yesterday came across 170459 on my service to Brough.

I've travelled this unit a few times on ScotRail where first class is at both ends (used to be a standard only set until 2011).

However when I boarded - aware that the configuration of the old ScotRail first class remains but declassified in Northern colours - that at one end of the train, the first class section was replaced with a standard layout and the removal of the walls and doors. In contrast, at the other end the old first class configuration remained, doors and walls in all.

Does anyone know the reason why Northern converted one back to a standard layout (even going as far to remove the vestibule walls in place for the usual glass wind guard) and not the other?

 

[mmh]

Just have a quick query. I am down (yes, down!) in Northern land at the moment and yesterday came across 170459 on my service to Brough.

I've travelled this unit a few times on ScotRail where first class is at both ends (used to be a standard only set until 2011).

However when I boarded - aware that the configuration of the old ScotRail first class remains but declassified in Northern colours - that at one end of the train, the first class section was replaced with a standard layout and the removal of the walls and doors. In contrast, at the other end the old first class configuration remained, doors and walls in all.

Does anyone know the reason why Northern converted one back to a standard layout (even going as far to remove the vestibule walls in place for the usual glass wind guard) and not the other?

The ROSCO owner of them didn't agree to both being removed, with an opportunistic eye on being able to flog them to a TOC that wants first class in the future?

 

[hexagon789]

Not as if its a huge change in seats either. Assuming it's as per ScotRail units, you fit 9 First or 14 Standard into the wee "cabins" behind the cabs. A whopping great difference of FIVE seats.

 

[HST43257]

Not as if its a huge change in seats either. Assuming it's as per ScotRail units, you fit 9 First or 14 Standard into the wee "cabins" behind the cabs. A whopping great difference of FIVE seats.

Even so the Standard seat number is over 1.5 times the amount of First seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it simply be that there are not enough spare seats to install to change both bits? Chapmans have not been made for a long time (I think the company is defunct), nor the metal frame type you get on some 170s.

 

[Iskra]

Not as if its a huge change in seats either. Assuming it's as per ScotRail units, you fit 9 First or 14 Standard into the wee "cabins" behind the cabs. A whopping great difference of FIVE seats.

The reality is that many Northern customers do still view the 'cabin' section with 2+1 seating as first class (which is great as you can often get it to yourself), so really by removing one compartment that's an additional 14 seats plus the standing room that typical Northern customers will actually fill and use, so it provides more tangible benefit than just the 5 extra seats.

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone know the reason why Northern converted one back to a standard layout (even going as far to remove the vestibule walls in place for the usual glass wind guard) and not the other?

They didn't convert any, so I can only think that the unit came from Scotrail like that for some reason.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not as if its a huge change in seats either. Assuming it's as per ScotRail units, you fit 9 First or 14 Standard into the wee "cabins" behind the cabs. A whopping great difference of FIVE seats.

The Northern franchise agreement from way back in 2015 specifies that 3-car Turbostars should have 198 seats. Do those five seats by any chance mean the difference between meeting this requirement and narrowly missing it?

Could it simply be that there are not enough spare seats to install to change both bits? Chapmans have not been made for a long time (I think the company is defunct), nor the metal frame type you get on some 170s.

I don't think there's anything stipulating that you can't replace only some of the seats with a newer design. I think the Chiltern Turbos are like that.

 

[hexagon789]

Even so the Standard seat number is over 1.5 times the amount of First seats.

But they are declassified, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?

You aren't gaining 14 seats, only 5.

The reality is that many Northern customers do still view the 'cabin' section with 2+1 seating as first class (which is great as you can often get it to yourself), so really by removing one compartment that's an additional 14 seats plus the standing room that typical Northern customers will actually fill and use, so it provides more tangible benefit than just the 5 extra seats.

If there isn't any First Class branding do ordinary people always notice a different style of seating as "First Class"?

The Northern franchise agreement from way back in 2015 specifies that 3-car Turbostars should have 198 seats. Do those five seats by any chance mean the difference between meeting this requirement and narrowly missing it?

190 in an Express 170, 18 First and 172 Standard. So even re-seating one First section only gets you to 195, assuming spec is as per ScotRail with two table bays (eight seats), one row of airline seats (four seats) and two sideways priority seats (two seats) = 14.

 

[Iskra]

If there isn't any First Class branding do ordinary people always notice a different style of seating as "First Class"?

I think 2+1 seating does tend to notify first class to ordinary passengers, but the automatic doors separating it from the rest of the saloon do also confer the impression of first class.

 

[py_megapixel]

190 in an Express 170, 18 First and 172 Standard. So even re-seating one First section only gets you to 195, assuming spec is as per ScotRail with two table bays (eight seats), one row of airline seats (four seats) and two sideways priority seats (two seats) = 14.

I suppose the driver's seat at each end gets it up to 197, and then the toilet makes it 198

 

[hexagon789]

I think 2+1 seating does tend to notify first class to ordinary passengers, but the automatic doors separating it from the rest of the saloon do also confer the impression of first class.

I suppose they could always lock the doors open.

I suppose the driver's seat at each end gets it up to 197, and then the toilet makes it 198

Converting both sections gets you to 200

 

[Clansman]

Think I've a bit of egg on my face here folks.

459 was always a standard only unit. Looks like my eyes were playing tricks on me at Donny walking up to the front coach and thinking the back had a first while the front coach that I sat in didn't!

I seem to have gotten it confused with 457 which was what sparked my question initially since some of that pool of units were converted 10 years ago to have First installed. Can never remember where the cut of was (up to 458) until I looked it up just now.

D'oh!

 

[fgwrich]

The Northern franchise agreement from way back in 2015 specifies that 3-car Turbostars should have 198 seats. Do those five seats by any chance mean the difference between meeting this requirement and narrowly missing it?


I don't think there's anything stipulating that you can't replace only some of the seats with a newer design. I think the Chiltern Turbos are like that.

Or wait until EMR dispenses of theirs? Might be waiting a while for those to become free though at this rate!

Think I've a bit of egg on my face here folks.

459 was always a standard only unit. Looks like my eyes were playing tricks on me at Donny walking up to the front coach and thinking the back had a first while the front coach that I sat in didn't!

I seem to have gotten it confused with 457 which was what sparked my question initially since some of that pool of units were converted 10 years ago to have First installed. Can never remember where the cut of was (up to 458) until I looked it up just now.

D'oh!

Afraid so, while 170450-170461 were delivered as standard class 'Suburban Pool' only units (for the Fife Circle), 170450-170457 were later fitted with FC and moved across into the more common 'Express Pool' units. Not that it really mattered as you could often find them still appear on the Fife Circle! 459s always been a one class unit only!