When is buying a ticket too late?

[jrh2254]

I always thought you had to buy a ticket before you boarded a train. However I was on a crosscountry service yesterday and the ticket inspector asked for a passengers ticket to which they said 'just pressing pay'. The ticket inspector said 'next time buy a ticket before I come round checking'.
Was the passenger just very fortunate not to be reported?
I would say 'yes' and I think the more times passengers get away with this is sending the wrong message to the passengers that always have a valid ticket.

 

[Watershed]

I always thought you had to buy a ticket before you boarded a train. However I was on a crosscountry service yesterday and the ticket inspector asked for a passengers ticket to which they said 'just pressing pay'. The ticket inspector said 'next time buy a ticket before I come round checking'.
Was the passenger just very fortunate not to be reported?
I would say 'yes' and I think the more times passengers get away with this is sending the wrong message to the passengers that always have a valid ticket.

Yes, very fortunate. Of course it's possible that the passenger started their journey at a station where there were no ticketing facilities but that's pretty unlikely, given that XC services predominantly serve staffed stations.

 

[185]

"Purchase after depart" will appear on the scanning device in big letters. For revenue inspectors, This is rather an easy one to progress to penalty fare or report for prosecution.

 

[[.n]]

"Purchase after depart" will appear on the scanning device in big letters. For revenue inspectors, This is rather an easy one to progress to penalty fare or report for prosecution.

How will it know that happened? How accurate is it? What if a train is 10 mins late, and you only choose to press buy when you see it entering the platform so you know its worthwhile making your journey?

 

[alistairlees]

How will it know that happened? How accurate is it? What if a train is 10 mins late, and you only choose to press buy when you see it entering the platform so you know its worthwhile making your journey?

That's going to be fine. The data on train running is largely very accurate, although there are a number of stations where actual running data is not automatically collected. But this can all be worked out.

 

[northwichcat]

"Purchase after depart" will appear on the scanning device in big letters. For revenue inspectors, This is rather an easy one to progress to penalty fare or report for prosecution.

I do think there's a big difference between buying after boarding and buying just before you are asked to show a ticket. Someone buying after boarding might have had every intention of buying a ticket but found there was a long queue, the ticket machine was faulty etc. so is still purchasing at the first opportunity. Someone who purchased/activated 30 minutes after boarding when the ticket inspector was at the other end of the carriage probably only did it because they saw the inspector.

I've heard conductors say "next time you need to" and I've also heard them say "that's not valid as you haven't activated it, you now have to purchase a new ticket"

 

[Kite159]

A classic case of someone only buying when they saw the guard coming round checking tickets. No doubt had the guard remained in the backcab that passenger wouldn't have bothered buying a ticket for the journey they were taking .

Especially if they were travelling between stations without barriers

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I always thought you had to buy a ticket before you boarded a train. However I was on a crosscountry service yesterday and the ticket inspector asked for a passengers ticket to which they said 'just pressing pay'. The ticket inspector said 'next time buy a ticket before I come round checking'.
Was the passenger just very fortunate not to be reported?
I would say 'yes' and I think the more times passengers get away with this is sending the wrong message to the passengers that always have a valid ticket.

CrossCountry isn't a Penalty Fares TOC is it? So the worst that could happen would be a full fare ticket would be issued, with an Unpaid Fares Notice issued if the passenger had no money? Only if they refuse to pay then does it progress, no? Excuse me if I have it wrong.

 

[Watershed]

CrossCountry isn't a Penalty Fares TOC is it? So the worst that could happen would be a full fare ticket would be issued, with an Unpaid Fares Notice issued if the passenger had no money? Only if they refuse to pay then does it progress, no? Excuse me if I have it wrong.

The passenger could be prosecuted. Indeed that is a not uncommon occurrence for ticketless passengers on XC.

 

[miklcct]

There have been occurrences where I had intention to buy a ticket, and I was already going through the purchase process while I'm stepping on the train. When the confirmation email finally came, the train was already moving (I was making VERY tight connections, such as 1- or 2-minute connections after an advance ticket, with the intention to exit the station if I didn't make it.)

Am I safe if the inspector immediately checked the ticket after the train started?

 

[[.n]]

That's going to be fine. The data on train running is largely very accurate, although there are a number of stations where actual running data is not automatically collected. But this can all be worked out.

I suppose the point I was subtly trying to make is that - how does the app know that the ticket you've purchased is for the specific service you're on - if I buy for example an anytime day return?

 

[skyhigh]

I suppose the point I was subtly trying to make is that - how does the app know that the ticket you've purchased is for the specific service you're on - if I buy for example an anytime day return?

The scanner will know the time the train departed from the station the ticket was valid from, and the time the ticket was purchased. If that was after the train departed (taking into account live running times) it's pretty obvious.

 

[The exile]

I do think there's a big difference between buying after boarding and buying just before you are asked to show a ticket. Someone buying after boarding might have had every intention of buying a ticket but found there was a long queue, the ticket machine was faulty etc. so is still purchasing at the first opportunity.

I suppose the classic example for this (and one where I hope discretion would be shown in all cases) is where you turn up in plenty of time to buy a ticket at the station but the service is up the spout such that the train you intended to catch is cancelled and the one after that is about 40 minutes late. However, as you're joining the queue at the sole ticket machine the previous train rolls in 20 minutes late...

 

[plugwash]

The scanner will know the time the train departed from the station the ticket was valid from, and the time the ticket was purchased. If that was after the train departed (taking into account live running times) it's pretty obvious.

There are certainly cases where trains overtake each other though, so you can board a later train then change onto the earlier one.

Also I was under the impression that unless there was a break of journey restriction that travelling short was allowed.

 

[kieron]

The scanner will know the time the train departed from the station the ticket was valid from, and the time the ticket was purchased. If that was after the train departed (taking into account live running times) it's pretty obvious.

What I'm hearing is that, in this sort of scenario, you should buy a ticket to start at a station Crosscountry don't serve.

 

[nedchester]

If someone at the time of presentation has a valid ticket then they have a valid ticket.

If a prosecution was attempted because you both the ticket after departure I suspect it would be one where it would be difficult to “prove” there was no intention to pay.

Is this another case of the “railway” making up laws?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If someone at the time of presentation has a valid ticket then they have a valid ticket.

If a prosecution was attempted because you both the ticket after departure I suspect it would be one where it would be difficult to “prove” there was no intention to pay.

Is this another case of the “railway” making up laws?

Don't Cross Country, rightly or wrongly, require their "customers" to have bought a valid ticket, before travelling, where facilities exist to have so done so beforehand?

Otherwise there's nothing to stop someone only purchasing an e-ticket if and when they see a ticket inspection is in process.

 

[trainophile]

I've done this at Birmingham New Street, when arriving off the Liverpool train to discover that the next two (hourly) Herefords were cancelled. On looking at the departures board I spotted a Cardiff XC departing in six minutes. Hastily checking RTT I found I could get a Hereford connection at Worcestershire Parkway. I didn't have any time to go and buy a ticket, so rushed down to the XC platform and bought an e-ticket when safely on board, the confirmation arriving just as the train pulled out.

As it happened there wasn't a ticket inspection before I got off it, but would have been interesting to know what they would have said if it flagged up the time of my purchase.

 

[nedchester]

Don't Cross Country, rightly or wrongly, require their "customers" to have bought a valid ticket, before travelling, where facilities exist to have so done so beforehand?

Otherwise there's nothing to stop someone only purchasing an e-ticket if and when they see a ticket inspection is in process.

There's nothing to stop someone but this is about the legal position rather than the T&C's of the operator.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There's nothing to stop someone but this is about the legal position rather than the T&C's of the operator.

It's also a general condition of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (Clause 6.1) which forms the contract when you purchase any ticket, indeed it's a key responsibility for any passenger using the railway. So not just a Cross Country term or condition.

 

[skyhigh]

If someone at the time of presentation has a valid ticket then they have a valid ticket.

If a prosecution was attempted because you both the ticket after departure I suspect it would be one where it would be difficult to “prove” there was no intention to pay.

Is this another case of the “railway” making up laws?

Byelaw 18(1):

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas (1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

If you purchase a ticket after boarding, you enter the train without it and therefore are liable under 18(1).

 

[Runningaround]

In many areas with extremely ropey (or none at all) internet connections the first chance you get is on the train using it's wifi, if the guards quick off the mark they might be on you before you've got to the pay screen. Then again he can stop you and sell one himself. I often only activate once the train is definitely on its way, too often I've bought, downloaded, activated before reaching the station only to find the train cancelled which then involves a long winded refund claim.

 

[nedchester]

Byelaw 18(1):

If you purchase a ticket after boarding, you enter the train without it and therefore are liable under 18(1).

Truth but I'm talking about proof here and I reckon someone employing a sharp lawyer could successfully defend this one.

And yes I've bought tickets after departure having go on a train at the last minute.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And yes I've bought tickets after departure having go on a train at the last minute.

Did wonder what position you were perhaps endeavouring to defend.

 

[nedchester]

Did wonder what position you were perhaps endeavouring to defend.

What are you implying?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And yes I've bought tickets after departure having go on a train at the last minute.

What are you implying?

Such a practice, might, in certain circumstances, be inadvisable.

 

[miklcct]

Such a practice, might, in certain circumstances, be inadvisable.

I'd like to know more about this as well, as this often happens when catching 1-minute connections.

 

[nedchester]

I'd like to know more about this as well, as this often happens when catching 1-minute connections.

Indeed. I've often bought tickets 'as I go along' using split ticketing.

Just because you bought the ticket after you left doesn't mean you didn't intend to pay. If when the ticket is presented it's valid then it's valid.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed. I've often bought tickets 'as I go along' using split ticketing.

Just because you bought the ticket after you left doesn't mean you didn't intend to pay. If when the ticket is presented it's valid then it's valid.

The law isn’t interested in what you thought about doing.

 

[nedchester]

The law isn’t interested in what you thought about doing.

I'm trying to work out if you agree with me or not.

You present a valid ticket at time of inspection that should be the end of it. As I say if something like this went to court then a good lawyer would successfully challenge.